History / Jews...and their Polish experience [520]

"Ashkenaz" in the Bible meant some other european or turkish ethnic group. But in the middle ages it was used by Jews to refer to the german areas and the rhineland. In those days there were three main areas of jewish communities: germany-france (called "ashkenaz") , Spain (called "sefarad") and Iraq (called "bavel" or babylon). There were Jews in many other places too, but these were the main centers.

Ashkenazi jews of today descend from the jews of france and germany who migrated eastward to bohemia, poland, lthuania and the rest of eastern europe. The khazars were much further east and their civilization had nothing to do with "ashkenazim".

People use the "Khazar" argument to deligitimize jews living in Israel. My question to this argument is: Do you want us to live in Poland or germany? Polish people always told Jews to "go back to palestine". We did. So what are you compaining about now?

History / Jews...and their Polish experience [520]

In one post you say on the one hand that jews can live in poland, like there's no problem, and on the other hand you complain about "those damn commie Jews" that are still in poland. Your bigotry is so obvious it makes you look ridiculous.

Here's a bit of news: We have a country, Israel, and we don't need your permission to live there. We certainly don't need your permission to live in Poland, because no Jew is interested in moving to Poland.

History / Jews...and their Polish experience [520]

I'm not a victim. I don't live in Poland so it doesn't affect me if Poles hate me or not. It has no importance. But i am interested in Polish history and Jewish-Polish history, and I think it's fascinating how Polish attitudes towards Jews has nothing to do with actual Jews. Most of the things you think you know about us have no connection to reality.

History / Jews...and their Polish experience [520]

No such thing as Polish attitudes toward Jews? Look around this forum. Look at your own posts.

History / Jews...and their Polish experience [520]

I don't raise the german issue because the role of the germans in killing Jews is so obvious that there's nothing to discuss. The germans don't deny it. We also have no argument with the Poles that the germans are the perpetrators - nobody claims that the holocaust was done by the Poles. The discussion between Jews and Poles is about the relationship between two ethnic-religious groups that lived in the same country for hundreds of years, sometimes in harmony, but more often with hostility and suspicion. It's an interesting topic and it has a lot of emotional baggage.

History / Jews...and their Polish experience [520]

I agree that any group that is hated might be partly to blame. In fact Jewish writers in the 19th and 20th century had all kinds of ideas of what Jews shoul be doing to stop people from hating them. But after a while they realized that no matter whether they assimilated or not, spoke Polish or Russian or german, dress like their Christian neighbors and ate the same food, were nationalists, communists or traditionalists - it made no difference. Jews can't remain Jews in some else's country. That conclusion is what led to political Zionism. The idea was that if we want to live as Jews, we have to live in our own country. And that's what happened. Unfortunately, most Jews waited too long.

History / Jews...and their Polish experience [520]

Human nature, as you say. I have a lot to say about that, but the thing with the Arabs is for another forum altogether.

History / Jews...and their Polish experience [520]


I think the Israel-Palestinian issue should be left for other forums. But just as a short reply: 1. Jews on the whole aren't interested in getting access to former homes in Poland. It's a non-issue since no one plans on going there to settle.

2. There weren't 3 million palestinians in the world when Israel was established.
3. The central part of palestine was declared by the UN as an Arab state, but they never declared independence because Jordan and Egypt took it over. In 67 Jordan Egypt and Syria tried to destroy Israel and they lost the rest of palestine in the fighting. Israel offered to give the conquered land to Palestinians to establish a peaceful state, but they refused the deal. I think they are more interested in revenge than independence.

4. Most palestinians live under the rule of the palestinian authority. The refugee issue could have been solved long ago if they wanted to, by compensation and settling in Jordan which was historically part of palestine anyway.

History / Jews...and their Polish experience [520]


Who is Ariel Ben Sharon?
Maybe you mean Ariel Sharon. Where's your source for that quote?
What was the context, maybe it was about France?

History / Jews...and their Polish experience [520]

Pilsudki,
You're obviously an idiot. For the benefit of the others...
These quotes of Sharon are phony. There is no way that he ever said that about raping Arab girls and there is no record of any Israeli soldiers raping any arab girls. We also don't poison the wells or make matza out of christian kids or worship the devil, and we don't have horns. Pilsudski is pathetically gullible if he believes that nonsense, and whoever made it up is sick in the head.

History / Jews...and their Polish experience [520]

Wrong on both counts:
1. The Sabra and Shatilla massacre was done by Arab Christians in Beirut against palestinians in Beirut. So ask the christians why they did that.

2. Sharon was investigated by a government commission in Israel. It fired him from the job of defence minister because they said he should have known that it might happen and should have tried to keep the christians away from palestinian neighborhoods. But no one said that he was involved in it in any way or that he knew about it while it was happening.

But I guess when christians kill muslims it's the fault of the jews.

History / Jews...and their Polish experience [520]

They sent milosovic to trial because there was evidence that he massacred civilians. Sharon was investigated by his own country because he had administrative authority over that theater of war. He wasn't involved in a massacre.

Sharon has gotten a lot of bad press because he is the kind of Israeli that Europeans love to hate: self-confident, unapologetic, dedicated to protecting his country, and not concerned with what foreigners think of him. I think he made some mistakes during his career, but he is nothing like the person depicted in the anti-israel press. That's a made up character that sums up all the anti-jewish stereotypes. The cartoonists even show him with a hook nose even though his nose isn't hooked at all.

History / Jews...and their Polish experience [520]

Before getting into the Israeli role, let me ask, why is it that no one screams about the people who actually did the slaughter - the Lebanese Christians? Is it because it's more important for you to find an argument against Israel than to blame the actual perpertrators? (Now I understand Poles who are upset when people complain more about the inaction of the Poles in the holocaust that the actual murders commited by the germans.)


Nothing is forgotten by our people. You should know that by now. Just like we don't forget what others have done to us, we don't forget what we have done. We're not perfect, but we are our own worst critics. For more on the Sabra Shatilla massacres, look at this link. Read it before you comment on it.

jafi.org.il/education/actual/sabra-shatilla/index.html

History / Jews...and their Polish experience [520]

The extreme right wing groups in poland are a problem for poland, but most Jews are unaware of all of that. (Except the tiny communities in Warsaw and Krakow). The rest of us get our information from our parents and grandparents, and most of it is based on experiences from the pre 1945 era. I know that things have changed since then, but on the same token I still hear people in this forum talking about the "Jewish Bolsheviks" as if there are still any bolsheviks in the world. We should all learn from the past but not live in the past.

History / Jews...and their Polish experience [520]

Last time I looked, i didn't see anyone shipping Arabs to concentration camps or gassing them or shooting them in pits or throwing babies out of windows. But what I did see in my lunch break in the mall were Arab families and couples sitting in the coffee shop just like me, and shopping like any Jew in the mall. The same as I see every day. So don't give any of that garbage about us treating them liike Nazis treated Jews!

History / Jews...and their Polish experience [520]


That you say that apparently the nazis didn't use gas chambers shows where you get your ideas from. I hope the others here notice that. The "facts" you raise are so blatantly false there's hardly any point in talking with you. But for the benefit of the others let me make clear:

1. Israel has no torture sells and cages, either in Gaza or elsewhere.
2. Israel does not target children. Ever. (Some unfortunately get killed in counterattacks after rockets are launched from residential neighborhoods. There is a war going on in an around Gaza, and it can easily be stopped by Hamas if they cared about their children.) The palestinians, on the other hand are targeting ONLY civilian targets with rockets and suicide bombers.

3. There are no rapes going on, and there never were.
4. The wall and checkpoints serve as a border between their areas and ours to keep out suicide bombers. Have any better ideas? Before the intifada there were no walls and there was free travel and employment for West Bank arabs all over israel. There was no need for one till the palestinians started bombing and roadside shootings. So we put up a security border. If putting up a border means creating a ghetto, then every country in the world is a ghetto.

I live about an hour from Gaza, out of rocket range for now. So everything here is quiet and peaceful for both Jews and Arabs. Before the wall, we had suicide bombs. Now we don't. The wall is ugly but it works.

History / Jews...and their Polish experience [520]

Oy Pilsudski, Pisudski. Your namesake liked Jews more than you do. Since I'll never convince you that Israel has a right to do anything, why don't we go back to the topic of this thread, which is "Jews and their Polish Experience".

History / Jews...and their Polish experience [520]

It's a fascinating story because of the Biblical connections, and the world's interest in anything having to do with Jews. But I think the world should get a life and notice other things going on. The most dangerous spot in the world today is Pakistan, where you have an unstable government unable to control a country torn apart by tribal strife and Islamic fanatics, and this failing government has atom bombs. Who is to say what tribe will have their finger on the button a month or a year from now.

But that's not the topic of this thread, is it?

History / Potoccy Magnate Family in Politics and History [23]

Did you ever hear the story of a Graf Potocki who became a Jewish scholar? Among Polish and Lithuanian Jews this was a popular legend but I don't know if it's true or not. Look at this link for the story...

jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp?letter=P&artid=482

History / Jewish love towards Poles [389]


We (the Jews) are not the ones telling everyone we're chosen. The bible says so, and Christians are meant to believe the bible. But we were chosen not as a "master race" but for a specific spiritual purpose, to follow the Torah that God gave us and to be a holy nation. We haven't always done our job properly and we're the first to admit that, but we're doing the best we can considering.

About assimilation: Jews have tried that, particularly in Germany, where most Jews considered themselves german above all. A lot of good that did!

History / Jewish love towards Poles [389]


That might be true in the UK. But I think the important accomplishment in the UK and the US is acceptance of diversity, which means that you don't have to assimilate to avoid persecution, you just have to be a decent citizen and accept certain public social norms. Also, in the UK there are much more visible minority cultures around, so UK Jews seem very british by comparison.

History / Jewish love towards Poles [389]


That's a question of belief. The point I wanted to make is that many Christians who criticize Jews for being the so called "chosen people" have forgotten that their own religion is based on that same premise. They believe that Jesus was the promised messiah of the jews, a descendant of the house of david. That presupposes a belief in the hebrew bible, where all those concepts originated, including the concept of a chosen people.


I said "by comparison". I would hope that they don't assimilate completely.

History / Jewish love towards Poles [389]


It's a question of belief if the bible was given to Moses at Mount Sinai (I'm referring now only to the 5 books of Moses) and if the books of the prophets were written under direct divine inspiration as the word of God. If you don't believe this then you can say that the ancient Jews made up the idea of a chosen people. Fine. But a christian would believe that the bible is from God. Jesus certianly would have said so. And if it was from God, where do christians come off blaming us for being chosen. It's not as if we asked for it.

History / Jewish love towards Poles [389]


True. Most did. And that's why I'm a Jew today and not a Pole, even though my grandfather and his father and his father... were born in Poland. It was an absurd situation , an nation maintaining a separate identity without living in a territory of its own, and it had no solution until it became feasible for Jews to go back to Israel. The US was the choice for many, because it's a country not based on ethnicity. But I prefer a Jewish country where Jewish naitonhood can flourish rather than just be tolerated. (Today Israel and Poland get along politically much better than Jews and Poles ever did within Poland.)


Most israeli politicians and leaders are not religious. I wish they would cite the bible as often as you give them credit for. The jewish claim to this land is based on our well-known historic connection with the land. The bible is the most widely known record of that and is believed by a large part of the world, so that's why we quote it. But it's not an excuse for everything, just a basis for our being here. And face it, if we weren't here, we might be in Poland, or the UK. So be happy we're here.

History / Jewish love towards Poles [389]

While it was night time here in Israel, you've all had a very interesting discussion. I agree that there was vicious antisemitism in Western Europe before there was any in Poland. Just look at the crusades or the inquisition. That's why Jews migrated over centuries Eastward. When eastern europe was developing the kings wanted Jews to come because it gave them an instant middle class of traders business people and craftsmen. They gave Jews relatively good conditions. When Polish magnates settled ukraine they also brought in Jews to manage estates and that led to communities of Jewish craftsmen and traders to service the new settlements. But that doesn't mean that the general Polish or ukrainian populace were happy about this policy. Townsmen felt threatened by Jewish competition. The church felt threatened or scandalized by the presence of Jews. So Poland was officially good to the Jews in the early centuries, but that doesn't mean that the Poles liked the Jews. Jews and Poles lived "side by side" like two families living in the same house, speaking different languages and following different religions. As the much smaller of the two families, the Jews got kicked around. Particularly when Polish national consciousness grew and excluded the Jews of Poland. (The French, British or Germans didn't like jews any more than Poles did, but their national consciousness grew in a period when there were hardly any Jews there.)

So why did Jews stay in Poland if it was so bad there? Out of interia. People generally stay in the place they were born no matter the conditions. Poland had such a strong and lively Jewish civilization that, with all it's problems, it was till looked at as the best place for a Jew if he wanted to live as a Jew. My greatgrandfather left poland to america in 1890. But after a few years in New York they went back to poland because he said "America is no place for a Jew." The Russians helped to change his mind and they left again about 10 years later.

History / Jewish love towards Poles [389]


That's something that's interesting to me. I'd like to know more about customs and traditions that Poles and Jews have in common. I know we both drink Borscht but we spell it differently. We also eat potato pirogen. How about gefilte fish - carp stuffed with chopped fish - Do Poles eat that too? Stuffed cabbage (with chopped meat and rice)? Braided bread (called challah in hebrew-yiddish)?

Maybe we can't resolve historical issues, but we can eat.

History / Jewish love towards Poles [389]

This is making me hungry. I'm going out to lunch. See you later.

History / Jewish love towards Poles [389]


I'm no expert, but my impression is that society in Eastern europe in the end of the middle ages was more feudal than western europe, so the middle class was less developed. The Jews filled a need, which was good for both poland and the jews. The conditions were better than in the west, as you say. But that doesn't mean that the common people welcomed the Jews. Most people don't like foreigners moving in in large numbers, and neither did Polish people. So to say that Poland was nice to the Jews is true of the kings and some of the nobility, but not necessarily true of the common people. I'm not complaining, only explaining.


But the teachings of the Polish catholic church demonized Jews in the popular imagination and also contributed to anti-Jewish feeling. It doesn't matter whether they were carrying out the policies of Rome. The effect on people's minds was the same.


Yes. And they also streamed out of Poland and Russia from the 1880s onward. I said that people generally stay where they are out of inertia till a more powerful force moves themn away. Russian policy in Poland and, after WWI, polish policy toward Jews drove hundreds of thousands of Polish Jews to the west. But of course, most stayed till the Germans came.

The continuity of Jewish civilization in poland for so many centuries is not due to the love of Poland for all things Jewish. It was because, for a lot of political and economic reasons, Poland became the largest concentration fo Jews in the world, and the critical mass made it the most natural place for Jews who wanted to be live among their own people.

History / Jewish love towards Poles [389]


Excuse me. I wrote WWI (one) not WWII (two). What's with the "kibbutz Gossip"? I'm not using any sarcasm so why are you?

History / Jewish love towards Poles [389]

Have your coffee. I've already had mine.