History / Did Ukraine really "steal" Polish land? [302]

This ridiculous topic is full of Nazis! Stay out of it everyone if you feel civilized. Those Nazis can only destroy our good relations between Poland and Ukraine, which ment destroying those countries. But Nazis don't care. We, civilized people, Poles and Ukrainians, do.

History / Did Ukraine really "steal" Polish land? [302]


Poles were not leading class, szliachta and magnaty did, and Ukrainians were among the elite.


Wow! What you talking about? Ukraine invest huge money in education in Russian language in Ukraine. Recently some statistical table was presented by Ukrainian administration showing how much millions Ukraine spending on education in Russian.

In contrast to Russia spends $0 for education in Ukrainian (there is about 3 mlns Ukrainians live in Russia).


You are a nazi.

I feel horrible posting under this ugly propaganda made up title. This is my last message here and I ask you to do the same in respect of Ukraine... and Polish government representing civilized people in Poland.

History / Did Ukraine really "steal" Polish land? [302]

I have reported some messages from this topic to Administration and upset that it is allowed here discuss Ukrainian state integrity. Is the same apply for questioning integrity of Poland?

You, discussing here, under this ugly titled topic future of Ukraine, how you are so sure in future of all other countries? What are the constants to you? Your ideological beliefs, propaganda rumor, natural resources, size, location? How you can predict future of 50 mlns nation if you can't predict future of your business or employer? I understand that some ppl here just doing nothing more than spreading out the propaganda they paid for. But majority is not, And this majority should not tolerate such abusive topics.

History / What would Europe look like with Polish-Lithuanian-Ukrainian Commonwealth today [209]


Ukraine is united, Sokrates. Don't tell it to Russiаns, they would be upset - so much money for propaganda of "divided Ukraine". In fact Ukraine is more united than many other democratic countries. A bipolar division pattern exist only at 2004 presidential election map (of course bipolar - there was two candidates). Parliament elections 2007 got different patterns and so on. If you say that Poland "is breathing the same air all around country" I'll be very surprised as Poland is a big country too. The issue is only that Ukraine is informationaly weak facing huge propaganda machine from its East-North... Ukrainian democracy need better presentation inside and outside the country. You can help not repeating the propaganda myths.

History / Did Ukraine really "steal" Polish land? [302]

Yes, Sokrates, I can be sympathetic to feelings of Poles toward our Lviv/Lwow. Many Ukrainians respect those feelings as soon we are good friends, as now we are.

History / Did Ukraine really "steal" Polish land? [302]

Ridiculous topic overall... But if you are asking. Lwow was settled on land of Галицько-Волинське Князівство (Galicia-Volyn Duchy) founded by one of son of Kiev ruler Volodymyr the Great. It was like that starting from 11 or 12 century. Poles took over the land much later and the area have been populated by Ukrainian language population for all time you can explore.

Ukrainians were the same way victims of Russian and Soviet empire as Poles and did not took the land from Poland. Don't blame Ukrainians. Lets live in peace together.

... You using widely broadcasted by Kremlin anti-Ukrainian state propaganda word "stealing" here. Why applying here? Reading to much in Russian?

News / Why does Poland love the US? [144]

I'd wish in ignorant and selfish Europe, closing its eyes on revanchism in Russia, Germany, Italy some nation would be at least different as USA or UK are. You call it pro-USA? Then I wish Poland to be pro-USA.

History / What would Europe look like with Polish-Lithuanian-Ukrainian Commonwealth today [209]


He's right though, she knows Russia will damage Ukraine on every level if she gains control of it but she still kisses up to Kremlin simply to get political backing.

[/quote] I am not a big fan of Mrs. Tymoshenko simply because of her social populism. But I pay appropriate respect to every democratically elected politician in the World.


No its not she's a c*cksucker allright, we call it as we see it, if you read these boards you'll find us Poles calling domestic politicians worse, and we're usually right too.

[/quote]

And I wont follow this trend. I don't care about national deviations. I care about a civilized behavior and respect to elected politicians.

Tymoshenko is not pro-Kremlin at all. She is just trying to find way of dealing with those monsters on East North border. It is not easy business. Ask Germans, they failed already.

History / What would Europe look like with Polish-Lithuanian-Ukrainian Commonwealth today [209]


I assume, Seanus, you have some rights to call Ukrainian state PM in such words. Nothing to say how civilized you are after all. This is just ridiculous. I am not sure if I can report it to Moderator of this forum, but I'll try.

History / What would Europe look like with Polish-Lithuanian-Ukrainian Commonwealth today [209]


You must watch that new ridiculously expensive Russiаn movie (Tarаs Bulba, 2009) on Ukrainian-Polish matters... :-) The only things Polish did not do wrong in 16-th century Ukraine by this movie it is that they did not dry out Blаck See :-)

History / What would Europe look like with Polish-Lithuanian-Ukrainian Commonwealth today [209]


That's naive. They got a lot of land to ignore further land expansion. But they can't manage that land properly to make internal peace. That's one of main reason why they are looking for aggressive actions outside to satisfy at list this way questioning about the quality of life Russiаns. Ukraine or Poland doesn't matter, just another neighbor. The only way it is explain to Russiаns (not to military obsessed regime) that there can be another liberal way of living in peace.

Problem is that Germans and Italians - actual supporters of current Russiаn regime, can't listen to Russiаn radio and read Russiаn Internet to get what they really want.


Ukrainians were brainwashed by Russiаn empire and Soviet propaganda to be a confronting nation against Poland (starting from Gogol and his rotten "Taras Bulba"). Brainwashed with much more effort than inland Russiаns. If Ukraine independent fallen and aggressors wipe out its pro-democratic elite one more time. Polish people would get such upset and aggressive neighbor it is hard to imagine today. Ukrainians never trusted that stupid brainwashing because in every village some alternative pear to pear history existed about the Polish-Lithuanian-Ukrainian Commonwealth particularly. But if betrayed by brothers from Poland...

History / What would Europe look like with Polish-Lithuanian-Ukrainian Commonwealth today [209]


Oh, please. Don't repeat to me those propaganda things. Ukraine is "divided" in the way every old European nation divided more or less. There is not "three Ukraines", but rather thirty three. Look to Poland attentively, even it is recognized as one of much mono-ethnic nations in the world still their elections map got some patterns.


Are you talking about some nationalistic supporters in Ukraine? Oh yes, as in Poland, Hungary, everywhere you can find such peoples. For last 20 years Ukrainian state government is very courteous to Polish-Ukrainian historical past.


You will be surprised, but Ukraine is one of most respectful countries toward the International law. Go and claim your sized by Red Army house in an international curt. Ask Romanians about how Ukraine is civilized in International law matters, they must confirm.


Ukrainians could not as they are independent for 18 years only.

History / What would Europe look like with Polish-Lithuanian-Ukrainian Commonwealth today [209]


Bravo Bratwurst Boy!


Bravo Sokrates!!

That's exactly what I said. If some one is in love to Lviv/Lwow and Polish culture in it is a beautiful feeling. Join Lviv and Ukraine to EU, move there and settle your Polish projects there. Claiming changes of state belonging of this city it is a stupid and destructive way. Sorry for saying that, Ironside. I am just tired of those failures with thousands of victims, refuges, terrorism, etc. I stop discussion here on the subject. It is not only off topic, it is against the topic about our commonwealth.

History / What would Europe look like with Polish-Lithuanian-Ukrainian Commonwealth today [209]


May be in historical narration my friend, but not in common sense. There is hundreds of stories like that, but we live in real world. And in this real world dealing with real challenges even talking about converting Lviv back to Polish town is destructive and has no future.

History / What would Europe look like with Polish-Lithuanian-Ukrainian Commonwealth today [209]


Rather it meant seen in 12-th century's book that local people played with old Ukrainian and Slavic world "kraine" - "country". Makes sense now?


I mean you are free to claim origin of any name, but not land this name being called :-)


Yes, Ironside, I mean exactly this. I am happy that Polish government obviously does not represent your point of view. It would be a way to nowhere.


Nothing to add on this clear statement. Again, Poland got a modern government which doesn't mean all people are modern thinking. It is Ok, as soon as majority in Polish elite respect Ukraine Ukrainian ppl to pay back with great respect of Poland.

End of discussion on Ukrainian sovereignty. Out of topic. And out of sense.

We better concentrate on joining "old Polish towns" as Lviv/Lwow, Kyiv/Kijow to EU. Than there wont be borders between such close nations as Polish and Ukrainian and you can work in European Lviv on your historic projects with no work visa.

History / What would Europe look like with Polish-Lithuanian-Ukrainian Commonwealth today [209]


Oh no!!! Now it is Polish! :-)) I am just tired of this, every neighboring country claims origin of "Ukraine" word :-) Actually this is very common for many countries, so if you enjoy it, keep doing that :-) Just respect sovereignty of Ukraine.


I am Ok with that statement too. I just wanted to say that first few years the cossacks were enjoying their (historically wrong) decision. And they were not looking for partnership with Moscow duchy prior to uprising. The uprising of cossacks in 1648 was 100% the commonwealth internal business.

History / What would Europe look like with Polish-Lithuanian-Ukrainian Commonwealth today [209]


Yes, and it happened in some 100+ years after Ukraine signed the treaty with Moscow czar.

You keep calling Ukrainians as Ruthenians even both names existed that ancient time and meant the same. Why?

History / What would Europe look like with Polish-Lithuanian-Ukrainian Commonwealth today [209]


When Ukrainian hetman Xmelnitsky started the huge uprising in 1648 he had no relations with Moscow. It was a mass protest uprising, not an intrigue you must admit. Main reasons were: influenced by reformists catholic church pushed hard on Ukrainian Christian Orthodox in the commonwealth "only catholic can be a szlachtycz" - that was a huge challenge and abuse for majority of Ukrainians. Prior to that that Christian Orthodox had equal rights in the Commonwealth. Also the reformists had pushed using Polish language in churches, which also was kind of issue for Ukrainians.


Well for that breaking with Poland generation of Ukrainians to be under Russian czar was the same deal: repressions and marginalization of Ukrainian elites started in 18th century, for some 50 years it was more or less Ok.

History / What would Europe look like with Polish-Lithuanian-Ukrainian Commonwealth today [209]


Well, if one of the main reasons of the commonwealth failure was forcing Ukrainian elites to give up their religion and language this is very unlikely Ukrainians would end up calling themselves "Poles". Even nationality at that time was not so important - not so many Polish elite would call themselves "Poles", rather Sarmathians. Furthermore, even many Ukrainians of those times recognized king of Poland as their king, not many would say they live in Poland. The same repeated later in Russian empire. Now many simply minded Russians can't understand why Ukrainians had lived in the empire for about 300 years still not calling themselves Russians :-) British and Walsh is not best example here. Say rather it could end up as British and Scottish. Even rather as British and Irish.

History / What would Europe look like with Polish-Lithuanian-Ukrainian Commonwealth today [209]


Why so? Do you mean Ukrainians could call themselves as "Russky", "Ruthenians", "Krayanians", "Orthodoxianians" :-) or so? Well Poles could finally end up calling themselves Sarmathians or so :-)

News / Poland among the greatest enemies of Russia [112]


I share this point. Realistic point finally.

History / PIŁSUDSKI & BANDERA? [11]

I don't know why this strange topic appeared. Bandera and Pilsudski were from different times, acted in different situations and had different destiny. Yes, they are both recognized as heroes by millions in Ukraine and Poland for different reasons and... that's it.

History / Taras Bulba - the movie [115]


What is REALLY funny that Russians don't know about existence of first version of Taras Bulba poem. Read Wikipedia on the topic at least. First version was banned by Russian censorship and Gogol re-wrote it in a "patriotic way", making it such violent and pro-czarist.


Gosh... Russian TV Sasha.... Russia did not exist in 16th century, it was Moskovite state, nobody called it Russia, specifically Cossacks :-))

Guys, again , this is a hate movie, poorly made one. Don't waste your time for watching it. Too many interesting things appearing every day. Buy buy.

History / Taras Bulba - the movie [115]


Guys, we Ukrainians call Russians - 'Rosijany' and Poles 'Poliaky'. Because we are cool and not rude :-) We just tired of the manipulations of our history and dream to live in peace with all neighbors. Good that Poles, at least their government and elites do share such desire.

History / Taras Bulba - the movie [115]


It is a know fact in Ukraine. Read Wikipedia:
"...The novel has two versions. The first (1835) is decidedly Ukrainian in theme and story. The second (1842) was written in response to criticism of Dead Souls for being anti-Russian."

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taras_Bulba


"Viy" is a good example how Hohol/Gogol loved that time and expressed in different way. "Viy" is about the same time as Taras Bulba, but about peace, not conflict, as well as other great stories of Hohol. "Viy" is cool. Why Russians not filmed mystic "Viy" and filmed "Taras Bulba" saturating it and making a hate movie?

History / Taras Bulba - the movie [115]


I agree, it is rude. And in this new Russian movie Poles called ONLY "liaxy"...

History / Taras Bulba - the movie [115]

Do you mean that "hate movies" don't exist? Then you should watch the film. And I wont recommend to others.

History / Taras Bulba - the movie [115]

Gogol is Russian-English transcript and in Ukrainian-English he is spelled as Hohol, more correspondent to smooth Ukrainian pronunciation. But it is not the point.

History / Taras Bulba - the movie [115]


Because, first of all, it is not about a war time. Polish-Ukrainian civil war happened 100 years later, in hetman Hmelnitsky era. This original story of Hohol is about the time when Polish and Ukrainian elites lived in peace in one commonwealth and both were proud to be the szliahta. The division and conflict happened, again, about 100 years later, in Reformation time, when Polish elite decided that to be the nobles (shliahta) means to be a catholic and not orthodox Christian. Yes, there was uprising of different war lords and magnats each against others in 15th century, both Ukrainian and Polish mixed, but it was such time, not a civil war. Great writer Mykola (Nikolai) Hohol originally was attempting to express this life in his first version, but it was not accepted by czarist censorship (original story written in 19th century) and he re-wrote it making unnatural pro-Russian (again, it is time before Russian empire, north of Recz Pospolita there was Moskowia, Russia still not existed).

Yes, it is a bad timing. When you see movie about German Nazi time it is still actual, because hate, racism, xenophobia are still a reality. And now, new Ukrainian-Polish relations is just in beginning of new era of friendship. So, why now? Why you Russians doing it about Ukrainians and Poles?

Russian Mr. Bortko approached it in different way from Polish Mr. Hoffman with his With Sword And Fire. Both films on different stories written in 19th centuries, Polish With Sword and Fire is about 16th century and Russian story Taras Bulba is about 15th. Russian director has saturated the conflict, not time and not personalities unlike Polish Mr. Hoffman did. I respect second approach, this is a honest approach even many nationalists in Poland and Ukraine were expecting more harsh approach. And once Polish filmmaker is making it about Polish-Ukrainian matter it is again honest. But when Russian director makes it about Ukrainian-Polish matter...

Oh yes. Thank you for employing Ukrainian actor Mr. Stupka for main character in both movies :-) But it wont save the ridiculous hate movie.

History / Taras Bulba - the movie [115]

>There were two versions

Yes. And Mr. Bortko has filmed second one, adapted to czarist propaganda, with those "dying for Russia" Ukrainian cossacks and outrageous words about "there will a great Russian czar come down". What Russian czar in 15th century cossacks expected??? Ukrainian cossacks fought against Russian czar's punitive troops the same way as against Polish... And, the same time it is our Ukrainian history of common wealth with Polish people with both glorious and bad times happened. But such flat, bloody movie in 21th century.... Pure propaganda of hate.

>TO SLO: READ GOGOL'S«TARAS BULBA» and learn history

Oh, Taras Bulba has NOTHING to do to history. Great Ukrainian writer working for Russian empire Nikolai Hohol (re-)wrote it for money, I am sure he was not proud of such flat cheap anti-Polish story. Do you know he had a lot of Polish friends in real life?