News / Polish engineer beheaded in Pakistan. [347]


Ok...and which of the ones you refer to were not involved in a terror cell or related activities? If they weren't captured in combat, how do you propose to apply Geneva conventions, (which apply specifically to warfare) at any rate?


Not true. Originally, they were simply "terrorist detainees" however uproar from people such as yourself demanding they get rights guaranteed combatants, (such as were respected for captured Iraqi Army )under the Geneva conventions both prior to and after capture...led to the new term. Terrorists are specifically excluded from protection...therefore people did not want a spade called a spade otherwise "no holds barred" is completely within the realm of the allowable.


Back this up please? or is this just more sensational sounding information you somehow "know"?


What you think should or should not be in the Geneva conventions...has nothing to do with what is actually IN them. They simply do NOT apply to everyone, with certain people specifically omitted. And honestly, since because of rumors and hints and the like you believe the high ground was lost "long ago" then why should we even try? There is no pleasing people such as yourself. I think it is folly even to try.

Personally, I think known terrorists should be shot on sight rather than captured, it prevents people like you from fretting over what you *think* might be happening to the captured terrorists. You obviously value their comfort over the lives of their victims, and your self important sense that you have the moral high ground will not be bothered when innocent people are butchered in a Baghdad basement, because nobody asked the murderer's friend already in captivity. You have no clue, and are just blinded by what you THINK you know. Believe what you want, but believing isn't knowing.


Just because you or some other nutjob thinks, "oooh there's a conspiracy" because you disagree with the findings of the investigation...does not mean there should be another one, nor that there was "shoddy work". "I don't care how much it costs" doesn't sound like someone who is paying for it themselves...If you want to fund one from your private income and have something conclusive that counters the official findings...by all means, submit it to the authorities.

Otherwise, it is ridiculous to chase every single grassy knoll theory....just because someone like yourself believes everything we do is evil. You obviously have only considered one possible side of the coin, but to not examine the other side before making judgement borders on stupidity. It is far easier to pass on one's suspicions (we used to call it "gossip") than it is to wait until all the information is before making one's mind.


You speak of ignorance, yet you claim knowledge about military tactics, strategy, etc. assuming people go around "bombing willy-nilly". This is a hypocritical statement. The fact is you are ignorant yourself, in this regard, but post as if you somehow "know" what is being done or is not. You point at all the ignorance you assume is in the U.S. ...but it is written all through your own posts. Unless, by "ignorance" are you referring to people who disagree with you? either way I see it, your statements are off the mark.

John P.

News / Polish engineer beheaded in Pakistan. [347]


You "believe" in many cases...oh I see. That makes all the difference.


Who says none have? not to mention, again, if all these were "kidnapped" as you say, how do laws of combat (e.g. Geneva conventions) have anything to do with them. They only apply if these people were captured in conflict. Since you are implying they were not...what would you suggest? You can't have it both ways


No...you made the accusation, you provide the evidence. I can claim all sorts of things about you or your country...that doesn't mean it is true. I can parade people in front of you that claim they were "experimented on" by "space aliens" also. Proving it, and what they allege happened and by who...is a lot more difficult. However, I keep an open mind...feel free to enlighten me here.


You really ARE an interesting one. Yes, they do. Specifically, even.


Well obviously this was a rhetorical question, but you apparently were too blinded by your own opinions to catch it. Point is, you are essentially arguing to let people do whatever they will to us, our countrymen, and our allies, (and I mean to civilians) with impunity, for fear of what, offending the terrorists sensibilities? Scaring them? Please.


Shot on sight. War and "civil" do not belong in the same sentence. Known terrorists...can either be allowed to ply their trade, as it is obvious you wish to allow, captured, but never asked any questions (as you wish for ones already in captivity), or they can simply be killed.

Which, incidentally, violates no laws, and prevents people such as yourself from wringing their hands.

It's easy to point the finger, Plk, but realise when you do, that the other three are pointed back at you.


Again, Plk, when has anyone on this thread (me or anyone else) advocated random murder? I've not seen it.
However, do you think you could swallow the truth, even if it did not agree with your preconceived notions? I have my doubts, but I'm not going to assume it beyond your capability. I think you will just continue to overlook the truth, while demanding a "new" truth that agrees with your suspicions, for what, so you can go, "Ahah, I knew it!"?

If you know all these things you accuse people of plk, then go to the authorities, otherwise you are an accomplice. If you only "suspect" then that is different, now, isn't it.


What the hell are you talking about, plk....those people are in prison. I'm also not a guard. I have been privy to rescue missions, however, and the location of the would be decapitee, as it were, was sometimes given up by someone already in custody. But you seem offended that the information was gotten because, what, an already known terrorist, had to listen to bad music for a day or two?

Or if it's waterboarding specifically you are worried about so much, which one of the different passengers out of the UK or wherever...would you rather die, just to make one guy more comfortable? Which one? I implore you to call their families and tell them you would prefer their loved one die, than worry someone was mean to a terrorist


Sure...
Just because it was a two year long election campaign and EVERYTHING was accused of being "the Presidents agenda" or "the administration's fault" if it was perceived negatively, does NOT mean it was an incorrect investigation. You simply do not like the results, and want more money spent on it. To which I implore you, spend all of YOURS you want.


Look who's talking plk. You put words where there are none, you invent agendas where none exist, then you pretend to know anything at all about the war (you don't) but you call me clueless because I disagree with you. Is that it, in a nutshell? Of course the US makes blunders, so does every nation, but you continue to imply the US has some evil purpose in every post you discuss this and it tires me. You've been spitting accusations since I've been on this board (and probably before) but just because someone like myself disagrees, or investigations disagree, with your preconceived notion, does not necessarily mean we are "clueless". It just means you might be wrong, too. Don't take it so personal...its not like I'm accusing YOU of being a murderer, or being mean to terrorists, after all, and being wrong happens to everybody.


Give me a break. You too? Learn to read, then when you can argue with a semblance of logic, get back to me. Mandela, last I heard, hasn't been in any videos beheading anyone, hasn't hijacked any airplanes, or what not. He has been accused of being a rebel and a communist and all sorts of other things, but that's different, a bit. Still, great job on your one liner.

John P.

News / Polish engineer beheaded in Pakistan. [347]

I feel your sentiments here, Seanus, but while there are likely many terrorists who got their indoctrination from Saudi originated sources, and some may themselves be Saudi, the Saudi government is officially against the terrorists, even if it does not seem they are wholeheartedly into it. Unfortunately in some places the terrorists are seen as almost a "Robin Hood" type of character, taking the fight to the Infidel so to speak...or this is my perception, at least...and the government's official stance, and what the people do...do not always mesh. It is also likely, that like others who romanticize these or other groups which operate outside the law, do not actually have contact with what REALLY happens. People still walk around wearing Che Guevarra shirts, after all...but have no concept of the truly wretched murderer that the man really was. He is a symbol.

Likewise, OBL to some in Saudi, for instance. These people are idolized in various schools mosques etc as heroes, martyrs, etc...so even if the government bans it, public opinion may well be different.

Just my thoughts.

John P.

News / Polish engineer beheaded in Pakistan. [347]


This is true...if you count only those not in combat zones. And even THOSE are not protected by Geneva conventions but by other laws. however considering my viewpoint I am ONLY going to meet these people in direct combat. Previously the goal has always been capture, but I think instead of risking peoples necks to capture someone we are not allowed to get information from...makes no sense. And, by the way, I did say known terrorists at any rate.


You are speculating here, but have nothing to back this up-the reason I believe there is resistance to this, is that the inmates are not US citizens, and therefore are not subject to its laws, etc etc. They have already demanded treatment as POWs...so now the tune changes.


if this is found to be the case it is taken into account. Something you would know if you kept up on your news...


So says you. Chechens were beheading Russians, and OBL/ AQ were blowing up buildings before the US captured ANY of them. Somehow, I don't think sawing someone's head off or crashing an airliner into 3500 civilians intentionally...is in the same category as taking a known guilty person, making him uncomfortable but not physically harming him, to find out who else was in on the plot or when it is supposed to happen, other than perhaps neither are pleasant.

John P.

News / Polish engineer beheaded in Pakistan. [347]


Oh yes yes, all done in secret by "CIA goons" who of course presented credentials to him, did unspeakable things for YEARS, then of course released him....yeah right, but hey if YOU believe it...


Not so. But believe whatever you want. Captured on the battlefield or in a raid of a "kill house" somewhere is not the same thing as if your local constabulary picked them up for disorderly conduct at the local bar. You are applying citizens rights to people captured in battle. The one's not captured in battle...oddly enough do not want to face justice as provided by their OWN countries, as a general rule, but hey, they aren't citizens of the U.S...


You are a coolaid drinker aren't you. You have no idea what may or may not occur here, but think you do. People alledge many things, but often just as often as the things you alledge about us, they are lies. Intelligence is seldom useful after the length of time you propose, other than to give locations of people, or perhaps to verify identities etc. Your vision of reality is flawed I think.


Oh, the old, "its ok for people to behead people, because I know somebody else who is also mean" defense.
Nice.

John P

News / Polish engineer beheaded in Pakistan. [347]


Interestingly, those numbers come from who? Last I checked alledged numbers here in Iraq have been called into account and those who (made up?) the numbers either could not or would not provide how they arrived at their numbers. It definitely wasn't from a count. Some have even suggested his estimates were exponentially higher than reality. If similar methodology was used by those in other wars, well hey, we might as well just make them up.


Funny...they believe a lot of things, but somehow I doubt ANY of them have been to any secret prison, nor have they confirmed anything happened as this man claimed. They can suspect all they want, but that is not the same as proof.

Forgive my incredulousness when someone is made a celebrity in a time when it is popular to slam the US policy on terror...claims a "secret" prison tortured him for "years"...(all to the "knowing" looks from pampered producers) but no one asked the questions, like...how he "knew" anyone capturing him was CIA or, for that matter, if all these illegal acts supposedly were already happening to him...why would such monsters not simply shoot him in the head and leave him somewhere?

Heaven forbid anyone suggest the man made up the story, it simply doesn't ring true unless some really important key information is missing.

Does ANYONE validate people anymore, or do they simply put a camera and microphone in front of the first guy that has a good story about what the dirty Americans did?

I mean honestly, the crap people expect us to believe because it SOUNDS JUICY on TV is pretty thick. Perhaps I want to be famous...I could go on and on about how Gordon Brown, Barack Obama, and the Pope all kept me in a secret compound as a child where they abused puppies, and oh yeah...(see what I mean? ) So there's a lot left out of the story to expect me to believe it.


I'm not the one making the accusations here. I can look around me and see what is happening, and more importantly, what is NOT happening...then I listen to people like you trying to tell me what I see is wrong, because, from the comfort of your chair you heard about it or read about it, from still someone else who heard it from THEIR chair. You presume guilt without even knowing if a crime has been committed. At least I ask the "why, and how do you know" questions. You simply parrot accusations you've heard from others, without knowing really if they are true or not. Perhaps you don't consider this drinking coolaid, but it definitely isn't demonstrative of an inquisitive mind.

John P.

History / germany prepares for invasion of Poland [43]

I think in the U.S. education varies from state to state, county to county. I knew about this maneuver at the beginning of WWII, from school, but have also met people who did not.

Different states of the US decide what makes it to their curriculum and what is important in their state.
Unfortunately it seems to me that in some states history seems almost unimportant, with the emphasis being placed instead on "social studies". Which is not the same thing at all.

Admittedly, though, there's also the chance that this was mentioned, but that was the day someone was asleep in class. Most concentrate only on the part *after* the US entered the war, or our part in it.

Just my opinion.

John P.

News / Polish engineer beheaded in Pakistan. [347]


So says you... of course, "over the last century" doesn't leave quite a few countries spotless. Still, what YOU perceive to have happened 100 years ago has no bearing on whether someone should sit on their laurels on the global stage today.


Why do you think this is, exactly...


We can hope not.


Wrong, unless you mean only in the specific sense...


Again wrong


Seems ALL the banks have been doing this...although I'm sure you only see evil when it flies an American flag...greed is greed and it knows no nationality.


You are being ridiculous, here...


I am still awaiting your evidence...otherwise this is all bluster and hearsay by people with political motive. You make accusations as if this is all common knowledge, providing links that explain why these stories are verifiable...you have not done, for some reason.


I stand by this point. Until you provide something that uses more than hearsay. I want to know why some horrible acts could be committed for years on someone only to release them. If such things were really happening and were really a secret...what is the explanation given for such a person going through what is alledged....and then being left alive? Show me this, otherwise your examples are not credible as they do not fall within the reasonable man confines.

John P.

News / Polish engineer beheaded in Pakistan. [347]


Yes, you are quite late...the conversation has progressed quite a bit. No one (not even me) was saying "rendition" or whatever you want to call it...flights did or did not take place. The only challenge I make is that it has not been established what the secret flights were actually doing. It is quite easy to make accusations, but proving them is another matter. Just like your assumption that


This last part, while possibly true, is completely speculation on your part or that of the original source you got it from.


This is why it always surprises me to hear people (not just Americans but Brits too) wonder why we haven't invaded Pakistan...it's not like the government is completely an enemy, but somewhere in between. They have to deal with the people they govern, not the people we wish they governed. Must be a tough job.

There are lawless places in a lot of countries. Pakistan does not have the monopoly by any means.

John P.

News / Polish engineer beheaded in Pakistan. [347]

This is possible, or then again perhaps they do know who these people are. The trouble with televised executions and such by terrorists...is that even though they cover their faces they often crave fame. Everyone talks. "you know, I'm not supposed to say anything, but did you see what so and so did, and video for entire world!??? " eventually they brag to the wrong person. Or someone else they slighted recognizes them and makes a phone call.

Which, I guess, if you plan to be a "martyr" anyway...doesn't matter so much.

John P.

News / Polish engineer beheaded in Pakistan. [347]

szkotja...reread above. Nobody (not even me) says they did or did not have flights...but what their purpose exactly or what happened on them...it has not said, to my knowledge; it has only been accused. Maybe they are exactly what you say they are...but likewise your statement that so many documents were being withheld...does not prove in fact the reason for their being witheld. It may have nothing at all to do with what you think it does. After all, every flight here in Iraq...is also secret. Even the mundane, dropping off the mail kind of things. The purpose...may or may not be what we think it is.

Likewise there is probably a different reason for witholding those documents, especially if it is as you imagine, common knowledge that there are rendition flights specifically for torture or some such. I would imagine often the reason for secrecy is a lot less glamorous or interesting.

John P.

History / germany prepares for invasion of Poland [43]

There are armies and there are politicians...the one will always be the downfall of the other.

News / Polish engineer beheaded in Pakistan. [347]

Interesting.
Where in there does it actually say he was tortured by Americans..."rendered" being simply the secret flights themselves? did the Egyptians say they tortured him or something....or did the Swedish feel guilty about being caught turning him in, and pay him? Obviously if he was innocent, they would probably even try to get him released...something they didn't do.

Politicians make decisions based on public opinion and outcry, but not necessarily the truth. That said, that link is getting there at least. It isn't established in this that the CIA tortured him, honestly not even positive the Egyptians did, but that's up to the Egyptians, not the US...unless the Egyptians said they did those things to him, it is just as likely to be an allegation of someone wanting to be freed who thought himself previously untouchable(?)

John P.

News / Polish engineer beheaded in Pakistan. [347]


Honestly I had posted that part about Mossad in sarcasm, but unfortunately the last part of your statement here rings all too true. Everyone has their little piece and they guard it.

Supposedly it's a lot more streamlined today, but who knows.

Back to the original topic, I think that even when GROM or US or Pakistani forces get the offenders who beheaded this man, it won't matter...the zealots that create such people will see him as a winner either way. If they get away with it, then they have poked the eye of the west (yes, Poland is included here...) and if they do not, they have become "martyrs" while ...poking the eye of the west.

We can hope to deter those who are not QUITE as strong in their convictions. Make it more obvious to them that doing such things lands them in the latter category more than the former...

John P.

News / Tanks stolen from military training ground in Poland [28]

I have to say that until they got caught one has to appreciate the guts to pull that stunt.
We shoot up old tanks in the U.S. as well; it is interesting that someone would just take one for recycling. Those things weigh quite a bit, I imagine that there would be considerable income just from the scrap metal.

Yes, it is also feasible that someone could just take one with a crane and a truck. That's how they probably got there in the first place...

Still I get a chuckle out of this story.

John P.

News / Tanks stolen from military training ground in Poland [28]

ahhh.
environmentalists. So much for my theory of mischievious old ladies running a criminal recycling ring....
:D

John P.

News / Tanks stolen from military training ground in Poland [28]

Waiting for them to fix the things up...

News / Is Poland Provoking Economic Warfare With Russia? [26]


Basically agree although do believe I would argue if one dug deeper into the details...its in my nature...


News to me. One's religion is seldom advertised in the armed forces, let alone is it a reason for promotion. The officer ranks seem to have a political basis of course, especially in the senior ranks, (from the outside looking in, of course) but my perception is it wouldn't have mattered if he were a scientologist. He was simply the general who was in place at the time, just as Colin Powell, Norman Schwartzkopf...were the generals in a different war.

Of course you did say "because he could be 'trusted'...." which, honestly...has NEVER been a bad trait in a top general.
To be honest, I trust the EU and the UN and Russia...all the same. Not at all. I think Russia should be strong, although I disagree with the mess in Georgia as I perceive it...and totally distrust any organization which seeks control of many nations with loyalty to none. UN, EU, all of them with their own "governments"...give me the creeps. What's wrong with a regular old alliance, and let British control British, Polish rule Poland, Americans America and so on... We IMHO do not need some "higher" government composed of self important, secretive people who are the "masters of the universe". If it isn't THEIR people they are governing, how can we expect them to be fair.

Dunno. Just doesn't make sense to me.

John P.

News / Polish engineer beheaded in Pakistan. [347]


History repeats itself, especially if we do not pay heed to it. Also, the trouble the U.S. seems to have (my opinion as an American) is that each new administration wants to re-invent the wheel, so to speak, there is no continuity; often policies of the previous administration are pronounced failures for years during a campaign (regardless of whether they really are) and are tossed. This happens every 4 years sometimes 8. So unless total success happens in under 4 years, realistically 2 (the last US Presidential campaign started half way through the last term...) it is doomed to ridicule.

nrx,
as usual I enjoy the insight your posts give. Some of the information I did not know, but ultimately I tend to agree with the parts I do know about. I am not in Pakistan nor Afghanistan, but the first hand knowledge you give puts a lot more into perspective that did not previously seem to make sense.

John P.

News / Polish engineer beheaded in Pakistan. [347]


Somehow I doubt it. More likely as a head of state he is seeking the solution that is the most practical balance between radicalism and bloodshed. He has a thin line to walk, and I do not envy him.

John P.

Travel / Going to visit Poland for long period of time - need passport? [25]

Just go get your passport. You will need it at a minimum. Just got my Grandparents their first passports, they did not pay extra for the "expedite" service, but they still received them within 2 weeks. Of course there are warnings it could take much longer but I have not seen this happen to anyone I know.

John P.

Food / History of the Polish potato (what did Polish people eat before?) [17]

Hope so...although if not, one begins to wonder about this mystical "wolod" rice.
It's probably FAR more delicious than plain rice..... ;)

History / Polish soldier stories [50]

They pretty much didn't have a choice. Congress has to declare war, and the people mostly wanted to sit it out as long as possible before doing anything. But that has all been discussed elsewhere. Interestingly, my grandfather was born in the US while his parents were visiting from Poland, (allegedly anyway, lots of things went to his grave with him) grew up in Poland, and prior to WWII joined the US army.

Which promptly told him he was in for the duration and sent him back to Europe. At the end of the war, he was apparently within a scant few miles of his parents' home, but was not allowed to go, because it was now controlled by the Soviets.

Sometimes, I think I inherited his cr@ppy luck, too.

John P.

Life / What should Poland and Poles do, after first day of nuclear war? [133]

At the end of a nuclear exchange?
I think I would endeavor to reintroduce lead based paint, and perhaps even lead lined insulation, for people who would feel more secure sleeping in their own beds instead of a hole in the ground.

House water filters might not be a bad idea either.

Assuming currency is useless, other things can be bartered for, and I would imagine, ammunition and untainted food would become currency in many places...as would be clean water.

Gold is pretty, and rare...but you can't eat it and it doesn't do squat to keep one's family safe.

Just a hunch.

John P.

Life / What should Poland and Poles do, after first day of nuclear war? [133]

Pretty sure, most of the radiation of a nuclear blast...occurs at the instant of the blast. There is residual from fallout....less from a high altitude burst, lots from a surface or subsurface burst...essentially irradiated dirt sucked up into the explosion, as well as water vapor which returns as rain, dust, well...fallout.

A few heavy rains, and while perhaps not as nice as prior to the war, it would be liveable.
I think living in a little hole in the ground for years would drive one to WILLINGLY die; whereas risking radiation on the surface is hit or miss.

Hiroshima radiation levels dropped to acceptible habitation limits in well under a week.
Even the dreaded neutron bomb talked about in the 1970s...was considered to be ineffective beyond a certain distance if troops dug in only 5 feet below the surface...but this would be equally effective...a stopped army is a dead army.

Antiradiation sickness supplements, lead insulation, and water filters. Make a killing selling them. People WILL come out of their shelters and they will want water, food, and a no kidding bed to sleep in.

A nice stiff drink might also be in order.
Food hoarding, on the other hand...is a good way to be slaughtered by those just a little bit better armed.

John P.

Life / What should Poland and Poles do, after first day of nuclear war? [133]

Chernobyl is a different situation to that posed by a nuclear detonation. The place is STILL irradiating dirt as the nuclear reaction is STILL happening there (possibly still leaking out too?). It is a fallout factory, as opposed to a nuclear detonation with a finite amount of fallout created in a microsecond flash.

Not continually produced, as in Chernobyl.

IMHO, Chernobyl and the surrounding area would be WORSE considerably (wrt being able to live there) than the aftermath of a nuclear detonation. Especially if it is an air burst (most common tactic....keep the fireball high to cause more loss of life instantly, even if it causes less fallout....remember one's OWN soldiers then have to occupy the poor survivors' towns after the blast). People live in Hiroshima, People live in Nagasaki, they even live in Fallon, Nevada...where some REALLY big ones have been detonated. Not sure about Russians in Siberia. It's different, though.

Nasty regardless.

Still I think being able to offer people a symblance of humanity after such a horrific event...would be simple good sense.

John P.

Life / What should Poland and Poles do, after first day of nuclear war? [133]

Hmm lead space blankets, anyone?
maybe lead-lined "safe rooms" so if you aren't instantly vaporized you can live until levels either subside or are low enough to go somewhere else...?

If you plan to stay, there's other stuff to consider, of course.

John P.

Life / What should Poland and Poles do, after first day of nuclear war? [133]

Those silo homes are probably great (they keep the same temperature year round, naturally, as I understand)
One would wonder however, my luck I would be the unlucky soul living in one of those when it takes a direct nuclear hit, because the Russians/Americans didn't bother changing the target coordinates in their silos from the cold war and just "hit the red button" instead of re-aiming then hitting the red button...

John P.

Life / What should Poland and Poles do, after first day of nuclear war? [133]


True...but knowing government for how "efficient" it is, it wouldn't surprise me if both governments didn't really bother messing with the targeting that often, other than the vague idea they were headed to somewhere REALLY strategic...

Hope they do their homework instead of wasting those nice silos-turned-homes "just in case"....

I imagine indoor gardening would take on a larger following, even amongst those who do not smoke....
After all, submarines grow their own lettuce...and stuff from a can will drive you crazy.

John P.

Life / What should Poland and Poles do, after first day of nuclear war? [133]

It would be interesting to see how the order of things turned out afterward, considering suddenly people with edible food and drinkable water would be the new "rich" as opposed to someone with a large number in a computer database assigned somewhere to be his "account".

Hmmm.