TheOther
24 Jul 2009
News / New York Post : "Polish" Death Camps and more [278]
Look again... ;-)
That word was deleted while you were answering.
ahem, for what
Look again... ;-)
That word was deleted while you were answering.
TheOther
24 Jul 2009
News / New York Post : "Polish" Death Camps and more [278]
Finally someone summarized all three pages of this thread. And while we're at it I would like to suggest the following link for further reading:
polandsite.proboards.com/thread/257?page=1
All sides have blood on their hands.
Finally someone summarized all three pages of this thread. And while we're at it I would like to suggest the following link for further reading:
polandsite.proboards.com/thread/257?page=1
TheOther
23 Jul 2009
News / New York Post : "Polish" Death Camps and more [278]
And those communists were not Polish?
Oh well, just another one of these "Poor Poland was the victim", "Poor Poland never did anything wrong", "It was all the Russian's and German's fault", "Stick head in the sand and deny" guys on PF. [shrug]
Final remark:
My very first impression of this forum - that hatred, bigotry and hypocrisy abound - was spot on. You serve your country really well, guys. And you wonder why you are so "popular" abroad? <g>
Blaming Poland for something the communists did is fully not understandable by me
And those communists were not Polish?
That's your comparison and and an excuse? You DARE to compare France with Poland?
Oh well, just another one of these "Poor Poland was the victim", "Poor Poland never did anything wrong", "It was all the Russian's and German's fault", "Stick head in the sand and deny" guys on PF. [shrug]
Final remark:
My very first impression of this forum - that hatred, bigotry and hypocrisy abound - was spot on. You serve your country really well, guys. And you wonder why you are so "popular" abroad? <g>
TheOther
23 Jul 2009
News / New York Post : "Polish" Death Camps and more [278]
That's simply too easy, IMHO. If I would follow your argumentation then the Vichy government in France was not responsible for the deportation of Jews to the gas chambers simply because it was under the control of the Nazis. Strange concept, don't you think?
I dared to have a different opinion than the person in #8. After I responded that there were in fact Polish death camps ***, a bunch of "friendly natives" jumped on me and we went from there. That's all... ;-)
*** definition: see #105
If so, wouldn't it be the case then that your lines of enquiry and assumption would best be directed toward the now defunct Soviet oligarchy
That's simply too easy, IMHO. If I would follow your argumentation then the Vichy government in France was not responsible for the deportation of Jews to the gas chambers simply because it was under the control of the Nazis. Strange concept, don't you think?
what is your point
I dared to have a different opinion than the person in #8. After I responded that there were in fact Polish death camps ***, a bunch of "friendly natives" jumped on me and we went from there. That's all... ;-)
*** definition: see #105
TheOther
23 Jul 2009
News / New York Post : "Polish" Death Camps and more [278]
The Polish authorities, of course.
What views? Inconvenient ones? Tell me: why all this outrage just because someone has a different opinion than the one published in official Polish history books?
Are you saying then that the Polish people per se were responsible or the Polish government?
The Polish authorities, of course.
...and seems to hold similar views
What views? Inconvenient ones? Tell me: why all this outrage just because someone has a different opinion than the one published in official Polish history books?
TheOther
22 Jul 2009
News / New York Post : "Polish" Death Camps and more [278]
Not really, because it's not enough that you admit it. I actually believe that you mean what you say, but how many of your "kind" are there in Poland? Essentially, I would like to hear something from the Polish government.
That's what you say it is. I bet there are plenty of other people who would see it differently. Let's call it "different opinions" instead.
I had the pleasure to travel through Poland from Szczecin to the Poznan region a few years ago. Because I'm a little bit into genealogy I also tried to visit the places where my ancestors had lived (mainly small villages). I guarantee you that there was not a single of the former protestant churches left standing in those villages (example: Wąwelno, Gmina Sośno, pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/W%C4%85welno) and that most of the cemeteries were either destroyed or neglected.
(Google and you will find many other examples.)
Many other churches I saw lost their towers and were converted into sheds for agricultural machinery for example. Others were turned into catholic churches, as you said.
In recent years it got better though, and quite a few old cemeteries were restored.
I agree that the allies are to blame for the loss of Polish and German territories (and the expulsion of their populations) in the east, but I still have to ask who were the ones that actually performed the expulsions? The Soviets and their willing helpers, the Polish army. So yes, Poland had a lot to do with it.
The number of casualties I gave was the one caused by the expulsion alone. The total number of victims (incl. refugees) is much higher. Because the ethnic cleansing was carried out by both the Soviet and Polish armies, a share of the blame definitely falls on Poland.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expulsion_of_Germans_after_World_War_II
Scroll down to 'Demographic estimates, Casualties' for details.
As for the translation:
"Furthermore, she criticizes the lacking willingness (of the Polish state) to deal with Polish crimes against Germans or with Polish anti-semitism. "Poland hardly ever faces its past, [...], the (Polish) public sees it's national history in the tradition of heroic myths" (??? the latter is hard to translate for me).
My dad was Polish, my mum is German, and I was born in Australia. Feeling better now? :-)
Very soon
Well? Satisfied?
Not really, because it's not enough that you admit it. I actually believe that you mean what you say, but how many of your "kind" are there in Poland? Essentially, I would like to hear something from the Polish government.
...truth distortion and pure lying
That's what you say it is. I bet there are plenty of other people who would see it differently. Let's call it "different opinions" instead.
Not a single church was destroyed
I had the pleasure to travel through Poland from Szczecin to the Poznan region a few years ago. Because I'm a little bit into genealogy I also tried to visit the places where my ancestors had lived (mainly small villages). I guarantee you that there was not a single of the former protestant churches left standing in those villages (example: Wąwelno, Gmina Sośno, pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/W%C4%85welno) and that most of the cemeteries were either destroyed or neglected.
(Google and you will find many other examples.)
Many other churches I saw lost their towers and were converted into sheds for agricultural machinery for example. Others were turned into catholic churches, as you said.
In recent years it got better though, and quite a few old cemeteries were restored.
As for point NO 1, it was the allied powers which decided about the replacement of German population. Hence, go to complain to US, Great Britain and Russia. Poland had nothing to do with it.
I agree that the allies are to blame for the loss of Polish and German territories (and the expulsion of their populations) in the east, but I still have to ask who were the ones that actually performed the expulsions? The Soviets and their willing helpers, the Polish army. So yes, Poland had a lot to do with it.
As for point NO 3, most German victims...
The number of casualties I gave was the one caused by the expulsion alone. The total number of victims (incl. refugees) is much higher. Because the ethnic cleansing was carried out by both the Soviet and Polish armies, a share of the blame definitely falls on Poland.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expulsion_of_Germans_after_World_War_II
Scroll down to 'Demographic estimates, Casualties' for details.
As for the translation:
"Furthermore, she criticizes the lacking willingness (of the Polish state) to deal with Polish crimes against Germans or with Polish anti-semitism. "Poland hardly ever faces its past, [...], the (Polish) public sees it's national history in the tradition of heroic myths" (??? the latter is hard to translate for me).
Or are you better in Russian
My dad was Polish, my mum is German, and I was born in Australia. Feeling better now? :-)
...can we close this now?
Very soon
TheOther
22 Jul 2009
News / New York Post : "Polish" Death Camps and more [278]
Easy_Terran
Yes, yes ... always in denial, always blaming the others, never ever take any responsibility ... the stereotypical Pole is alive and well ...
Sad to see.
Easy_Terran
Yes, yes ... always in denial, always blaming the others, never ever take any responsibility ... the stereotypical Pole is alive and well ...
Sad to see.
TheOther
22 Jul 2009
News / New York Post : "Polish" Death Camps and more [278]
No, the emphasis was on 'genocide'.
Don't call someone else an animal if you behave like one yourself.
Nah. What the Poles did was to destroy most protestant churches and cemeteries.
You want the Poles to take a blame for Darfur, too?
No, the emphasis was on 'genocide'.
Again, focus on 1945, forget about years of hell prior to it.
Don't call someone else an animal if you behave like one yourself.
The Poles should have built at least 100 of churches
Nah. What the Poles did was to destroy most protestant churches and cemeteries.
TheOther
22 Jul 2009
News / New York Post : "Polish" Death Camps and more [278]
Easy_Terran
Ethnic Cleansing:
"However, ethnic cleansing in the broad sense - the forcible deportation of a population - is defined as a crime against humanity under the statutes of both International Criminal Court (ICC) and the International Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia (ICTY)." [Wikipedia]
Death Camp:
"A concentration camp where prisoners are likely to die or be killed." [Princeton University]
Darfur Genocide:
"The UN estimates that up to 300,000 people have died..." [static.rnw.nl/migratie/www.rnw.nl/internationaljustice/icc/Sudan/0812 04-sudan-genocide-redirected]
Questions:
1. Was the German population forcefully removed from Pomerania, Silesia and pre WW2 Poland?
2. Were thousands of people tortured and killed in the so-called labour camps of Poland?
3. How many people died during the expulsion of the German population?
Answers:
1. Yes
2. Yes, by Polish camp commanders and guards and, most likely, with the acceptance of their superiors
3. Lowest estimates: 400000 - 600000 in the course of the expulsion measures
You do the thinking. And don't tell me it was all the Russians fault and the Germans deserved it.
Easy_Terran
Ethnic Cleansing:
"However, ethnic cleansing in the broad sense - the forcible deportation of a population - is defined as a crime against humanity under the statutes of both International Criminal Court (ICC) and the International Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia (ICTY)." [Wikipedia]
Death Camp:
"A concentration camp where prisoners are likely to die or be killed." [Princeton University]
Darfur Genocide:
"The UN estimates that up to 300,000 people have died..." [static.rnw.nl/migratie/www.rnw.nl/internationaljustice/icc/Sudan/0812 04-sudan-genocide-redirected]
Questions:
1. Was the German population forcefully removed from Pomerania, Silesia and pre WW2 Poland?
2. Were thousands of people tortured and killed in the so-called labour camps of Poland?
3. How many people died during the expulsion of the German population?
Answers:
1. Yes
2. Yes, by Polish camp commanders and guards and, most likely, with the acceptance of their superiors
3. Lowest estimates: 400000 - 600000 in the course of the expulsion measures
You do the thinking. And don't tell me it was all the Russians fault and the Germans deserved it.
TheOther
22 Jul 2009
News / New York Post : "Polish" Death Camps and more [278]
That's a friendly way of saying it. Today it's called ethnic cleansing. It not only happened in what you call the 'recovered territories', but also in the areas of pre WW2 Poland. And it cost hundreds of thousands of lives.
Except for "final solution" (I admit that was on purpose), nope. I'm just trying to make you guys use your brains (if available...), take at least some responsibility for Poland's past, and stop lamenting about how badly the Poles are treated.
It must be very comfortable to forget the negative things of Poland's past. They did carry it out.
Here we go again: just another stupid excuse.
You mean expell all the Germans from the 'recovered territories'?
That's a friendly way of saying it. Today it's called ethnic cleansing. It not only happened in what you call the 'recovered territories', but also in the areas of pre WW2 Poland. And it cost hundreds of thousands of lives.
He is very much just throwing crap.
Except for "final solution" (I admit that was on purpose), nope. I'm just trying to make you guys use your brains (if available...), take at least some responsibility for Poland's past, and stop lamenting about how badly the Poles are treated.
So what prevented them from carrying it out,
It must be very comfortable to forget the negative things of Poland's past. They did carry it out.
Stalinism, ever heard about it?
Here we go again: just another stupid excuse.
TheOther
22 Jul 2009
News / New York Post : "Polish" Death Camps and more [278]
I agree, although you cannot seriously blame the crimes of the Polish communists on the Germans.
Then a controlled (i.e. ordered by high-ranking members of the Polish communists or by the Soviets) "final solution" for the remaining German population - be it ethnic cleansing or killing in concentration camps - would be even more plausible.
Well, but that's only an assumption of course.
The communist system imposed on Poland and its crimes were a result of the war started by Germans in 1939.
I agree, although you cannot seriously blame the crimes of the Polish communists on the Germans.
Poland was turning into a stalinist country...
Then a controlled (i.e. ordered by high-ranking members of the Polish communists or by the Soviets) "final solution" for the remaining German population - be it ethnic cleansing or killing in concentration camps - would be even more plausible.
Well, but that's only an assumption of course.
TheOther
21 Jul 2009
News / New York Post : "Polish" Death Camps and more [278]
We will never find out, that's for sure.
I find it very hard to believe that these commanders acted on their own and were able to commit the atrocities without their superiors knowing about it and at least quietly agreeing to it. Also, one might justifiably ask why charges against the camp commanders were later dropped and why they were even promoted afterwards.
there was no order from above to kill
We will never find out, that's for sure.
result of personal hatred and negligence of camp commanders
I find it very hard to believe that these commanders acted on their own and were able to commit the atrocities without their superiors knowing about it and at least quietly agreeing to it. Also, one might justifiably ask why charges against the camp commanders were later dropped and why they were even promoted afterwards.
TheOther
21 Jul 2009
News / New York Post : "Polish" Death Camps and more [278]
pawian
We are talking about killing innocent people, Pawian. It doesn't matter if the death rate is 20% or 100%. Are the animals who "only" killed 20% of the inmates less guilty than the ones that killed 100%? Killing a few thousand is the same "wonderful achievement" (using your words) as killing a million in my eyes.
Not that I know of, but my beer belly suggests otherwise... ;-)
pawian
We are talking about killing innocent people, Pawian. It doesn't matter if the death rate is 20% or 100%. Are the animals who "only" killed 20% of the inmates less guilty than the ones that killed 100%? Killing a few thousand is the same "wonderful achievement" (using your words) as killing a million in my eyes.
But you aren`t an expecting mother??
Not that I know of, but my beer belly suggests otherwise... ;-)
TheOther
21 Jul 2009
News / New York Post : "Polish" Death Camps and more [278]
pawian
Exactly the reaction I was expecting from you... <vbg>
pawian
Exactly the reaction I was expecting from you... <vbg>
TheOther
21 Jul 2009
News / New York Post : "Polish" Death Camps and more [278]
What would you call this?
"Often entire German villages were deported to such concentration camps" and "inmates were systematically maltreated and tortured" (Wikipedia quotes).
Killing thousands of people accidentally or on purpose?
So, were those camps death camps in the sense that the death of their inmates was accepted by both the camp commanders and their superiors, the Polish politicians, or were they just holiday camps were some people accidentally caught a flu and died?
I never claimed that there was a planned genocide or that those camps were Nazi-style death camps with gas chambers. What I am saying is that in the end those camps served the same purpose: namely, to get rid of a certain part of society while accepting its death through torture and starvation.
This whole (and sometimes unpleasant) discussion is about the definition of the term "death camp". Pawian and others talk about Nazi extermination camps when they use the term "death camp". I use a different definition,
wordnetweb.princeton.edu/perl/webwn?s=death%20camp
and that's causing all this confusion and fuss here.
wrong
What would you call this?
"Often entire German villages were deported to such concentration camps" and "inmates were systematically maltreated and tortured" (Wikipedia quotes).
Killing thousands of people accidentally or on purpose?
So, were those camps death camps in the sense that the death of their inmates was accepted by both the camp commanders and their superiors, the Polish politicians, or were they just holiday camps were some people accidentally caught a flu and died?
I never claimed that there was a planned genocide or that those camps were Nazi-style death camps with gas chambers. What I am saying is that in the end those camps served the same purpose: namely, to get rid of a certain part of society while accepting its death through torture and starvation.
This whole (and sometimes unpleasant) discussion is about the definition of the term "death camp". Pawian and others talk about Nazi extermination camps when they use the term "death camp". I use a different definition,
wordnetweb.princeton.edu/perl/webwn?s=death%20camp
and that's causing all this confusion and fuss here.
TheOther
21 Jul 2009
News / New York Post : "Polish" Death Camps and more [278]
The aggressive and rude way you're talking to me shows me just how willing you are to have a decent conversation and how serious I can take you.
See above
I can try (my German is quite rusty) - maybe later today.
Sorry to say this, but could it be that you are the stereotypical Pole so many foreigners on PF are laughing about? Unable to accept opposing views, always in denial and constantly blaming others.
Says the guy who cannot control his anger... :-)
You were the one calling me ignorant because I supposedly did not know the definition of Holocaust, remember? I showed you various other definitions of that term, so what's your problem? Can you imagine that there is a world outside of Poland which might have a different view on things?
As I said: there's a world outside of Poland. Get used to it.
The aggressive and rude way you're talking to me shows me just how willing you are to have a decent conversation and how serious I can take you.
Do you read any books at all?
See above
Can you translate it for us, please?
I can try (my German is quite rusty) - maybe later today.
you are stuck in your denial despite the facts
Sorry to say this, but could it be that you are the stereotypical Pole so many foreigners on PF are laughing about? Unable to accept opposing views, always in denial and constantly blaming others.
You are running a very poor discussion
Says the guy who cannot control his anger... :-)
I am Polish and we have never really used the term Holocaust for the ethnic Polish nation
You were the one calling me ignorant because I supposedly did not know the definition of Holocaust, remember? I showed you various other definitions of that term, so what's your problem? Can you imagine that there is a world outside of Poland which might have a different view on things?
...is a major blunder and still proves your extreme historical ignorance
Go back to books and come back in 6 months, OK?
As I said: there's a world outside of Poland. Get used to it.
TheOther
21 Jul 2009
News / New York Post : "Polish" Death Camps and more [278]
Just saw two sentences in your posts that must 've been added afterwards:
What can I say? It's beyond me how one can see the killing of thousands as a wonderful "achievement".
And another one:
Definitions of Holocaust:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Holocaust#Victims_and_death_toll
You see, it is an example of your ignorance... :-)
Just saw two sentences in your posts that must 've been added afterwards:
I think that only a few thousand German victims is a symbol of Polish forgiveness and refusal to take bigger revenge. Germans should be grateful for that
...only several thousand killed innocent Germans is a wonderful result
What can I say? It's beyond me how one can see the killing of thousands as a wonderful "achievement".
And another one:
You see, it is an example of your ignorance. Apart from Holocaust which destroyed the Jewish population of Poland, 3 million people, there were also about 2 million ethnic Poles murdered in direct extermination by Germans, Soviets and others.
Definitions of Holocaust:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Holocaust#Victims_and_death_toll
You see, it is an example of your ignorance... :-)
TheOther
21 Jul 2009
News / New York Post : "Polish" Death Camps and more [278]
Interesting, never heard about that book. So, what do you think about Hirsch's standpoint (taken from wikipedia)? I'm curious, really.
"Außerdem kritisiert sie die mangelnde Bereitschaft, sich z. B. mit polnischen Verbrechen an Deutschen oder polnischem Antisemitismus auseinanderzusetzen: „Polen stellt sich der Vergangenheit […] kaum, […] im öffentlichen Bewußtsein existiert die nationale Geschichte selektiv als Tradition heroisierender Mythenbilder“, so Hirsch 1996."
Again: I disagree with Lotnik767 who said that there "never were Polish death camps". For a dead inmate it doesn't make a difference if he died in a death camp or in a labour camp. They may carry different names, but because the outcome is the same (except for the death rate) both camps are literally death camps.
Interesting, never heard about that book. So, what do you think about Hirsch's standpoint (taken from wikipedia)? I'm curious, really.
"Außerdem kritisiert sie die mangelnde Bereitschaft, sich z. B. mit polnischen Verbrechen an Deutschen oder polnischem Antisemitismus auseinanderzusetzen: „Polen stellt sich der Vergangenheit […] kaum, […] im öffentlichen Bewußtsein existiert die nationale Geschichte selektiv als Tradition heroisierender Mythenbilder“, so Hirsch 1996."
So, what do you mean at all?
Again: I disagree with Lotnik767 who said that there "never were Polish death camps". For a dead inmate it doesn't make a difference if he died in a death camp or in a labour camp. They may carry different names, but because the outcome is the same (except for the death rate) both camps are literally death camps.
TheOther
21 Jul 2009
News / New York Post : "Polish" Death Camps and more [278]
Sure... :-)
Maybe some Polish people need to learn that their past wasn't as glorious as their politicians want them to believe?
Thank you! Finally we agree.
That's where you still fail to understand me.
Sorry by the way for the constant editing. You still seem to write while I'm already answering.
I couldn`t care less
Sure... :-)
give up your silly argumentation concerning "Polish death camps."
Maybe some Polish people need to learn that their past wasn't as glorious as their politicians want them to believe?
Killing is never OK, I respect all victims
Thank you! Finally we agree.
...you suggest that Poles equaled Germans
That's where you still fail to understand me.
Sorry by the way for the constant editing. You still seem to write while I'm already answering.
TheOther
21 Jul 2009
News / New York Post : "Polish" Death Camps and more [278]
Now, that's what I call some healthy ignorance... <vbg>
Killing innocent Poles in camps = NOT okay
Killing innocent Germans in camps = okay
That's what you're saying?
Isn`t it obvious in the light of your "arguments" and my explanations???
Now, that's what I call some healthy ignorance... <vbg>
Apart from Holocaust which destroyed...
Killing innocent Poles in camps = NOT okay
Killing innocent Germans in camps = okay
That's what you're saying?
TheOther
20 Jul 2009
News / New York Post : "Polish" Death Camps and more [278]
I never said there were. If you don't like the expression "death camp", then use "labour camp with the intention to kill". What's the difference, really?
Pawian, nobody denies the fact that millions of innocent people were brutally killed during the Holocaust. I just find it a little disturbing that you seem to imply that "a few thousand" lifes are less worth than a million.
Did you personally suffer or even your parents? Or why do you think that you are less ignorant and have more imagination than me? ;-)
There weren`t Polish gas chambers.
I never said there were. If you don't like the expression "death camp", then use "labour camp with the intention to kill". What's the difference, really?
You look at the numbers
Pawian, nobody denies the fact that millions of innocent people were brutally killed during the Holocaust. I just find it a little disturbing that you seem to imply that "a few thousand" lifes are less worth than a million.
If you lived under German occupation for 5 years...
Did you personally suffer or even your parents? Or why do you think that you are less ignorant and have more imagination than me? ;-)
TheOther
20 Jul 2009
News / New York Post : "Polish" Death Camps and more [278]
You're right: actually they were death camps for both Poles and Germans, run by Poles under the supervision of Soviets.
I was refering to the phrase "only a few thousand victims". Look at the word "only" and think about it.
Not an excuse, my friend. That's like saying "you did it first, so it's okay if we do it, too". It's not okay, no matter what.
There weren`t death camps for Germans run by Poles.
You're right: actually they were death camps for both Poles and Germans, run by Poles under the supervision of Soviets.
What is sick in saying that only a few thousand German victims
I was refering to the phrase "only a few thousand victims". Look at the word "only" and think about it.
Germans taught Poles how to be brutal.
Not an excuse, my friend. That's like saying "you did it first, so it's okay if we do it, too". It's not okay, no matter what.
TheOther
20 Jul 2009
News / New York Post : "Polish" Death Camps and more [278]
That's incorrect.
...for whom of course the Germans keep silence.
That's incorrect.
TheOther
20 Jul 2009
News / New York Post : "Polish" Death Camps and more [278]
I didn't compare the Holocaust to Poland's dirty little secrets, I just disagreed with Lotnik767 who said that there "never were Polish death camps". Big difference!
"Only a few thousand victims" ... quite a sick way of looking at it, don't you think? How can you call someone an animal and at the same time behave like one yourself?
...is a bit unfair, don`t you think?
I didn't compare the Holocaust to Poland's dirty little secrets, I just disagreed with Lotnik767 who said that there "never were Polish death camps". Big difference!
I think that only a few thousand German victims is a symbol of Polish forgiveness and refusal to take bigger revenge.
"Only a few thousand victims" ... quite a sick way of looking at it, don't you think? How can you call someone an animal and at the same time behave like one yourself?
TheOther
20 Jul 2009
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Or maybe teach some people in Poland...
Quote:
"Its candidates include Ryszard Bender, a historian of the Catholic University of Lublin who said in 2000 on the Catholic broadcaster Radio Maryja that Auschwitz was "not a death camp but a labor camp. Jews, Gypsies and others were killed by hard labor, not always that hard, and not always killed."
"they should teach people in America"
Or maybe teach some people in Poland...
Quote:
"Its candidates include Ryszard Bender, a historian of the Catholic University of Lublin who said in 2000 on the Catholic broadcaster Radio Maryja that Auschwitz was "not a death camp but a labor camp. Jews, Gypsies and others were killed by hard labor, not always that hard, and not always killed."
TheOther
20 Jul 2009
News / New York Post : "Polish" Death Camps and more [278]
Maybe not officially, but the camp commanders certainly had a different idea on how to run those camps. In my eyes it doesn't matter if the government of Poland (or the Soviets) openly endorsed in killing these civilians or not. Important is that Polish officials knew about the mass killings and didn't do anything against it. So, on paper they were not called death camps, but practically they were.
the purpose of those camps was not killing people
Maybe not officially, but the camp commanders certainly had a different idea on how to run those camps. In my eyes it doesn't matter if the government of Poland (or the Soviets) openly endorsed in killing these civilians or not. Important is that Polish officials knew about the mass killings and didn't do anything against it. So, on paper they were not called death camps, but practically they were.
TheOther
20 Jul 2009
News / New York Post : "Polish" Death Camps and more [278]
I beg to differ:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Central_Labour_Camp_Jaworzno
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Central_Labour_Camp_Potulice
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zgoda_labour_camp
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C5%81ambinowice
Different name, same purpose - killing people.
that there is no such thing and never were Polish death caps
I beg to differ:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Central_Labour_Camp_Jaworzno
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Central_Labour_Camp_Potulice
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zgoda_labour_camp
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C5%81ambinowice
Different name, same purpose - killing people.