Language / Should I learn both Polish and German [147]

Hi,
And no, I'm not making it up.
You're right, I AM hard on arrogant people who are immodest about their skills, masquerading as "language experts" in this borderless global economy. I am no end sympathetic (I am after all, among other things, an ESL instructor! :) ) with those right-side of the brainers: service people, engineers, sports figure, mathematicisnas who are not especially competent in language and who admit it from the outset.

I do become mildly irritated when travelling in Northern or Eastern Europe and being told by perfect strangers that there's no need for me to continue speaking their language, as they are far better in speaking mine, meanwhile, making such aggregious errors of which they remain blissfully unaware.

Marek

Language / How do u guys learn polish? [20]

No, Hyypia! I'm not a Pole I only play one on TV... he-he :) :)!!
Just kidding.

When I was in Poland, many Poles did in fact mistake me for a Pole momentarily. Some would even say, "Wstyd sie Pan, ze nie chce byc Polakiem!" = Shame on you, for not wanting to be a Pole!

Funny, huh"
Marek

Language / How do u guys learn polish? [20]

Hyypia,

...by listening like H_ _l to native speakers and by making the time to do it! I often have occasion to interact with Poles, because of my accent, I sort of "blend into" the crowd and I hear conversations among Poles which they might not ordinarily have with a foreigner!

I also READ, READ, READ and then READ some more, everything from the Polish classics (mostly prose however) to the sports news of the local Nowy Dziennik!

The former is key to ease in conversational fluency, while the latter is essential for developing the accuracy needed to speak on other than a tourist level.

Marek

Language / Should I learn both Polish and German [147]

......and others here might find appalling. :)
Thanks.

I often deplore how non-native English speakers merrily mangle our mother tongue, mutilating her beyond recognition, even to closest relations. Witness the following:

"I am avacado in my COWWentry, following electrocution lessons for to apporbat-UH my English..." Translation: I'm a lawyer in my country and I'm taking elocution classes in order to improve my English.

When I corrected this gentleman some time ago, I was arrogantly told that "his" sentence was correct and mine was wrong, i.e. not "British" enough.

I rest my case!!!
Fitfully yours,
Marek

Language / Should I learn both Polish and German [147]

Muzyka.
You've made a number of good points. As to the "spread" of English, my goodness, you make it sound like a species of fungus, at worst, a contagious disease. :)

Apropos of nothing other than my own recollection, a colleague made the funniest of Freudian slips when he referred in his talk to Polish, among others, as an "infected", rather than an "inflected" language. Thought I'd bust a gut laughing!

And precisely because English is often subject to distortion, Europeans in particular should more and more understand why Americans feel the need to learn, their languages. Remember, wanting to learn a foreign language and being forced to learn it in school, are two very differnt animals.

Marek

Language / Should I learn both Polish and German [147]

Thank you, Michal!!! :)
That was precisely what I'm saying.
Marek

Language / Should I learn both Polish and German [147]

Muzyka,

English definitely IS the number one language today of miscommunication. :)
You're in Australia, I see. Well, when last in the UK, (hope that's pc, or d'you prefer Great Britain?), there was a sign hanging in front of a bookshop in Oxford Street which summed up completely the global stew we're living in: BROKEN ENGLISH, SPOKEN PERFECTLY. By the way, in New York, it's far worse.

That sign really says it all!
Marek

Likewise, Bubba :)

The case is not only of speaker percentage as much as of standard and anyone with ears can tell that standard(s) has/have declined immeasurably over the last decades.

Sure, purists rub people the wrong way. Sure, "standard" has become a dirty little word, misinterpreted by some and misused by faschistic types. Granted.

Nonetheless, it bugs me no end that North Europeans especially (including here Poles, by the way!) imagine their textbook English to be so good, that foreigners no longer need to learn their languages as they need to learn ours. On the whole, I will say, a large number of Europeans pride themselves on speaking fluent English.

However, fluency without accuracy is like icing without the cake (or vice-versa): It's an incomplete picture.

I readily admit my Polish is not accurate. I am though ALWAYS willing to be corrected.
Marek

Language / Should I learn both Polish and German [147]

Bitte, bitte. Gern geschehen! Prosze bardzo, mido!
Marek

Language / Do Poles get confused over the different word endings? [40]

Michal,
Good question! I've seen "spowrotu" or "s" + preposition in the context of an aspectual "happening only this one time"-type situation, e.g. " W zimie lezy cale miasto pod sniegem." ( in general) vs. "Zeszlego tygodnia lezalo cale miasto spod sniegem." (only this specific time, not necessarily always).

Marek

Language / Do Poles get confused over the different word endings? [40]

Stevie! :)

Szczesliwej drogi a szybkiego spowrotu do domu.
Marek

Language / Why don't you have only one past tense in English? [14]

Michal,

Foolish me! Maybe I'm translating from German (AGAIN :) :) "Ich werde Peter einen (langen) Brief geschrieben haben." = I will have written Peter a long letter.

Marek

Language / Why don't you have only one past tense in English? [14]

Sapphire!

Indeed, it's quite helpful. To be sure, comparisons between Polish and other languages can only aide our ability to understand the target language (in this case Polish). :)

Thanks very much,
Marek

Tylko dalej:

Napisalem/-am Piotrowi dlugi list. = I WROTE (dokonany!!) Peter a long letter.
Pisalem/-am Piotrowi dlugi list. = I WAS WRITING (niedokonany!!) Peter a long letter.

Marek

Language / Why don't you have only one past tense in English? [14]

Czesc, Panu Wroclawie!

Present continuous = Pisze Piotrowi dlugi list. = niedokonany (I'm writing Peter a long letter.)
Present simple = Napisze Piotrowi list. = dokonany (I will have written Peter a letter.)

Wszystcie czasy (tenses) po angielsku zwiazku z aspektami po polsku.
Marek

Language / Help! I really want to learn the Polish language. [15]

Hello!
For my two cents worth, can't think of that much to add to what the rest have already said.

It's ideal naturally, when, as here, real native speakers can correct, at least your written, Polish. :)
The language is connected of course to the culture, as with any language, therefore, much of what is stated, written etc. in Polish is connected to the history/mystery (sorry about that one! he-he) of Poland. For instance, when someone sneezes at the table, one might hear "Sto lat!" = A hundred years! as the response, whereas in English the response phrase is normally "Bless you!".

Not a good idea though to judge either a language or a people by their politics. After all, the English are basically honest by nature.

Marek

Language / Do Poles get confused over the different word endings? [40]

Hi, Stevie!

Indeed, Michal and myself had made some forrays into "non-Polish" tongues, namely German, solely for explanatory purposes! :)

Apologies if you felt exluded. Bardzo mi przykro, ze nie moglas brac udzial w rozmowie.
Marek

Language / Do Poles get confused over the different word endings? [40]

Michal :)!

Remember (Pamietaj!): "A wise man knows that he knows not. A fool knows NOT that he knows not." :)
Marek

Language / Do Poles get confused over the different word endings? [40]

Polish seems more your baile wick than mine. I'll take your word for it about "kilka", not "kilku" in this instance. :)

Don't wish to appear arrogant. As I've often stated in this Forum; I don't profess to be always accurate in Polish, merely comfortably fluent.

Much appreciate your input!
Marek

Michal,
Here, my friend, I must insist on "Deine Polnischkenntnisse sind.." (plural here!) in German, my second "jezyk maczerzynski". Ever noticed Germans speaking English often say, "I got many knowledges of...." instead of "I have much knowledge..."? :)

My recipe for learning a foreign language without translating, is to listen for the native-speaker errors the foreigner makes in English. This is often a good guide as to how THEIR own language works.

Marek

Language / Do Poles get confused over the different word endings? [40]

Michal,

Thanks! :) You may well be right about "Dzis wieczorem". As far as "znajomosci", foolish me, I should have remembered that in most languages it's not "the language", but, the"skill/knowledge" of the language, just as in German (the language I tend to revert back to, as it were): " Deine Polnischkenntnisse sind nicht schlecht." = Your Polish (read lit., ".....knowledges of Polish are...." for "knowledge is", but directly translated!) is not bad.

Marek

Kilka or "kilku" slownikow...?
Marek

Language / Do Poles get confused over the different word endings? [40]

Stevie!

"Dla" in Polish doesn't mean "for" in the English collocation "Thanks FOR the gift....", but rather in the sense of "Ta ksiazka jest DLA ciebie." (This book is FOR you.) In Polish, whenever you want to say "Thanks FOR something..", use "ZA" only! "Slicznie dziekuje ZA mile zaproszenie dzis wieczór!" (Thank you so much FOR your lovely invitation this evening!)

Trust this clears things up a bit. (As far as Pan Schenker's concerned, even old grammars can be useful in terms of the basics, though clearly not in terms of style, idiom or contemporary usage.) Again, I'd go with Dana Bielec "Polish Reference Grammar" Routledge, plus ancillary exercise books. By the by, I miswrote "para" (steamship), in terms of "a pair" or "a few of", it's "pare" or some form of "kilka"!

Marek

Language / Do Poles get confused over the different word endings? [40]

Czesc, Stevie!

Boze mój, jestem zdumiony!! Twój polski jest niezle.

".......za (nie: dla) pomóc. Ona (nie: Ono) jest bardzo stara (nie: stary)
Para poprawien. :)
Inaczy jest dobrze.
Marek

Language / Do Poles get confused over the different word endings? [40]

Daffy,

I agree. And yet, sadly, perception is reality and regrettably these exceptions do not confirm the rule.
The "Celtic Tiger" is indeed something to be proud of. Generations of social hardship and fierce political infighting though, continue to back up on the tremendous progress made thus far.

Just MY two cents worth. :)
Marek

Language / Do Poles get confused over the different word endings? [40]

Michal,
Regarding your last post, English-language native speakers tend to be at a growing disadvantage, especially here in the States (apparently in the UK as well) in terms of the rate of illiteracy. "Brover"/"Brother" is merely a striking example, yet the total number is doubtless vast.

In smaller, more homogeneous language groups, where speakers of those languages are forced by sheer speaker percentage to learn majority languages, i.e. English, their literacy level tends to be strikingly high compared with the US or Great Britain. Iceland, for instance, has a population of a mere quarter million, enough to fit into several major New York highrises. Their language isn't spoken (even studied much) outside of that country. Therefore, they've got to learn English.

Marek

Language / Do Poles get confused over the different word endings? [40]

Michal,

Think you mean "orthographical" dictionary (just as in Polish :) ), NOT autobiographical!
Marek

Language / Numbers in the Polish Language [39]

Michal,

I'm not a native speaker either, not even a bilingual (-born), but you are in fact right, because the rule about plurals does indeed cover ALL genders, after the number "piec":

"Dwie ksiazki" "matki", "panstwa", "stoly" etc. , but "Piec"/"Szesc ksiazek, matek, panstw, "stolów" though, is perfectly correct. :)

Marek

Language / Numbers in the Polish Language [39]

Michal,

I was recommended "Polish Reference Grammar" by Dana Bielec, put out by Routledge Press. It's fairly comprehensive as grammars go and seems to have zero typos, compared to some other texts I've seen.

Marek

Language / Do Poles get confused over the different word endings? [40]

A well-known English authoress of the gay persuasion who became a 60's icon in the London underground (no pun on your "tube" :) :) )scene.

Marek

Czesc, Stevie.

"....where my words will sound so pathetically wrong...."

CWICZENIE TWORZY MISTRZA, i.e. You gotta start somewhere. :)
Marek

Language / Do Poles get confused over the different word endings? [40]

Check "her "profile. As in "Stevie Smith", the famous British lesbian poet. :)
Marek

Language / Do Poles get confused over the different word endings? [40]

thanx, Stevie!
I know what I'm talking about so much I added an extra "z" to "wladac"!! :) :)
Appreciate the vote of confidence though. I never pretend however to be totally accurate in written Polish, merely fluent.
Marek

Widze, ze mieszkasz tu w Nowym Jorku. Ja tez. W Queensie. A ty? Czy uczysz sie teraz jezyka polskiego, albo studiowalas na uniwersytecie? Czy juz bylas w Polsce?

Language / Do Poles get confused over the different word endings? [40]

The case of the noun is normally determined by the verb or preposition as In German,
Polish seems almost quixotic in its use of such cases for which there are few rules as much as there are examples of usage.
Marek

Steve,

To continue briefly, nouns are "declined", verbs are "conjugated". Any Polish grammmar will give lists of verbs which are governed by certain cases, e.g. "pisac" = to write, always takes the accusative case (and the corresponding endings). "Pisze dlugi list." = I'm writing a long letter." vs. "wladzac" = to have a command of, i.e. fluency in a language, "On wladza kilkoma jezykami = He has a command of several languages. "Wladzac" takes the instrumental case, along with the prerequisite endings, e.g. the adjectival " kilka (several) " adds "-oma" and "jezyk" (language) adds the nominal "-ami".

What can make Polish seem like a hard language is the seemingly slippery rules applied to noun endings for "animate" vs. inanimate" nouns having different genders.

For this, an immensely longer post would be necessary. I'd therefore consult a detailed grammar book or an outline of Polish grammar.

Powodzenia!
Marek

Michal,

I was once told by a Polish native speaker, an English TOEFL-student of mine in fact, that when she was of grade school age, the most common mistake during Polish class was to write "ogrut" for "ogrod" (with the accent-aigu like mark above the letter "o") on dictations. :)

Marek

Language / Do Poles get confused over the different word endings? [40]

Walesa's errors, e.g. "rekami" for "rekoma" might be equivalent to our Bushisms, "nucular" not "nuclear" etc. :)

President Eisenhower was legendary for sentences like "Things are more the way they are now, than they ever were."
Marek