Language / A Native American or a Native Pole: Who is better into which language? [116]

Ha-ha! -:)

Was recently in a bookstore looking for "Remembrances of Things Past" (in English, regrettably as my literary French is well beyond repair) and said to the bookdealer, a youngish sort around thirty or so, "Could you tell me where I might find Marcel Proust?", to which the young man replied, "Sorry, I don't believe he works here."

Both of us had a good chuckle over that!!!
Cheers,

Marek

Czesc, Unikpoland!

I didn't find that the Poles spoke especially good English. They did try though, which, I guess, is better than nothing.

A bit too much US-slang however. Perhaps their English might be better served by a little more Steinbeck and Faulkner, a little less "Friends" and "Miami Vice".

Gdy JA zaczynalem, przed wieloma latami uczyc sie jezyka polskiego, chcialem czytac n. pr. Elzbiete Orzeszkowe itd. po polsku. Teraz umiem rozmawiac o te pisarke po polsku.

Marek

Language / Some example sentences using each of the cases in Polish [33]

Ooops! When you're right, you're right. Sorry, must have been sleeping. In fact, I think it should really be "Znam madrego mezczyzni/kollegi."

Don't quote me, lest I sow even more confusion here!
Marek

Language / A Native American or a Native Pole: Who is better into which language? [116]

The Poles, on the contrary, I've found to pride themselves on being quite linguistic (my hobbyhorse Joseph Conrad, after all - I've already bored us all enough about him -), particularly in French, their former offical court language, as elsewhere in Europe, as well as German (e.g. "Herr" Reich-Ranicki, Polish-born doyen of German TV biliophiles).

English, it's true, is another story again, at least for the average Lech or Mieczko on the street.

The real "linguists" of Europe are the Swedes, the Dutch to a degree and of course, the Hungarians, whose vocabulary in English especially, can be astounding!

Marek

Language / Kasia and Zosia pronounce [17]

Michal,
The difference between Americans and Brits, as a rule, is that the English still have a deep and abilding respect for the sanctity of their language. In other words, it remains a tool with which communication occurs in as aesthetically satisfying a manner as is possible. In the States, on the on the other hand, language is used primarily as a means of filling the vacuum of empty space as much as we can, regardless of what is being said. In brief, we fart out of our mouthes a lot! I'm sure your English wasn't corrected here, as probably noone was really listening to the way you were saying something as much as on the supposed message you were communicating. We don't typically care how nice it sounds, but rather on whether we get your point or not: KEEP IT SIMPLE STUPID!, that's our motto.

Don't misunderstand. We Americans pride ourselves on being a linguistically tolerant bunch. It's easy being tolerant when you don't know the rules.

Think I'll quit now! -:)
Marek

I was there both as a tourist when I was sixteen (around 1978) and later on business.
By the way, my written work had no "accent", so noone would have dared to correct it.
Marek

Language / Some example sentences using each of the cases in Polish [33]

Michal,

Regrettably I seem indeed to have failed in my understanding of your question. The answer is simply, Polish exception to the rule no. 14_...!!!

"Kolega", "mezczyzna" etc. are instances instead of "masculine animates" with feminine "a"-stem endings, e.g. Znam madrego mezczyzna (with final "a" letter I can't make on my kepboard!).

Does this help a little?
Marek

Language / Kasia and Zosia pronounce [17]

......such as we Yanks, eh Michal?? -:)

The number of times my "American"was paraphrased and/or actually corrected when I was in London, would fill the pages of a small book!!

Marek

Language / A Native American or a Native Pole: Who is better into which language? [116]

Michal,

As an older acquaintance from Krakow once remarked to me years ago (in German, as I couldn't even say, much less pronounce, the number "trzy" at the time, i.e. ZERO knowledge Polish!): "All Poles understand Russian language,....but noone speaks it."

Marek

Language / Some example sentences using each of the cases in Polish [33]

Michal,
Your question appears to be why does "papierosy" not become "papierosow", but "psy" becomes "psow" with the verb "miec", correct?

Well then, both Krysia and I have answered your query.
Marek

Language / Kasia and Zosia pronounce [17]

Droga Medziu!

Cwiczenie tworzy mistrza. (Practice makes perfect!)

Marek

PS
Incidentally, Poles are usually far more tolerant of foreigners' occasional mispronunciations of their language than are the Hungarians, for example. Why they're even worse than the Parisians. Yet on a scale of 1-10, the Germans (not the Austirans) are by far the most tolerant I've found in Europe with regard to problems non-natives have with their language.

...plus, Americans especially are slurring all over the place! I never met a reduced vowel sound I didn't like. --:)
Marek

Language / Kasia and Zosia pronounce [17]

Beannie,

Individual "s" sounds can vary. It sounds on the surface like "Kashia", but the "sh" sound in this combination, "Kasia", "Basia", etc. is pronounced much less like f.ex. an English "sh" and more lax, almost lazily. It is NEVER pronounced in Polish like a true "sh"sound in "Szczecin" (Sh-ch-e cin), the city name.

Furthermore, in Polish, every letter is pronounced and there are really NO schwa sounds (represented phonetically by a backwards-written "e") as in English or other languages

Marek

Hi!

I should also add that in Polish, syllable stress is much more regular than, say, English. Therefore, whereas English and French as well (but not German!) will typically reduce the final vowel e.g. "agenda", "livre" etc. into a sort of "uh"-sound, this doesn't happen in Polish. Charactaristically, when Poles say a sentence such as "I'm from Poland.", it frequently comes out sounding "Ay ahmm frrraum PoLAND." because to them, the typical schwa-sound doesn't exist!

Marek

Language / Some example sentences using each of the cases in Polish [33]

Michal,
"Mam psa." is accusative masc. singular (animate male noun). "Mam psów" is merely the plural. However, "Mam stól", NOT "Mam stolu", because of course "stól" is an inanimate male noun.

Same for "papierosy" (although perhaps they feel "alive" after having smoked several in succession! -:) ). "Papierosów" would simply be the genitive plural form.

You remember, I assume, that when using the accusative case for animate male nouns, as above, the noun endings ALWAYS take the genitive. For inanimate male nouns, the accusative endings are required!

Marek

PS
In the negative, the rule for inanimate male nouns changes, e.g. "Czy masz czas?" - Nie, nie mam czasU." For negations only, the genitive is used for nouns of ALL genders!

Language / A Native American or a Native Pole: Who is better into which language? [116]

Correct, thanks to English, the universal "buffer tongue" of the world's citizens, everyone of us is able to communicate.......well, sort of, at any rate.

I suppose I've long since thrown in the towel of the purist's fight, the battle of the ever frustrated idealist, to rescue English from long-suffering abuse at the hands of linguistic incompetents, i.e. bureaucrats, more interested in profits than quality.

I've given in, but I've never given up!
Marek

Language / A Native American or a Native Pole: Who is better into which language? [116]

"And, English is quite ambiguous......."

Indeed. Right you are, Miguel. Spanish, for instance, has "ser"and "estar" for the one English verb "to be". Even the seemingly complicated Polish tongue has only one verb for "to be".

Yet precisely in its ambiguity, lies the richness, the texture and melody of English, "the music in the malarkey", I call it. Why then do Abbot & Costello or The Marx Brothers often fall flat in other cultures? It seems "Borscht Belt" humor is NOT a universal language!

Marek

Language / A Native American or a Native Pole: Who is better into which language? [116]

Czesc!
Bunia, you seem to want to practice your English here so I'll correct a few minor things in English instead of using Polish:
"I do understand the general idea behind it (not a bad idiom).......but there are (not "is") a lot of different rules and I tend to confuse them......"

Overuse of slang seems to be your biggest problem in English, not as much the articles. In your position, I'd focus more on the standard language rather than on phrasal expressions, i.e. "mess up" etc. until you're quite sure of correct usage.

Marek

Bunia,

Polish has indeed prepositions, "na", "w", "pod " etc... just as English or German. You mean "articles" (artykuly), of which Polish has in fact f.ex. "ci", "te", "ten" for English "this", but not for simply "the", that's true.

Marek

Language / A Native American or a Native Pole: Who is better into which language? [116]

Witaj, Buniu!

"The" = specyficznie przedmioty i osoby, n.pr "Where are THE books? - On THE table" (Tylko JEDEN stol), "Where is THE man?" itd.

"A"/"An" = powszechnie przedmioty i osoby, n.pr. "I'm looking for AN empty (wolny) table." (Cokolwiek!)

Czy zrozumiesz?
Marek

Language / A Native American or a Native Pole: Who is better into which language? [116]

Michal,

For foreigners, the tough thing about German (and I'm only talking about the grammar) is basically the word order and the oodles of prefixed verbs followed by the gender/case agreement. Without all that, I supposed German would be called, well, English -:)

Polish is less transparent, especially in the numbering system!

Marek

Language / A Native American or a Native Pole: Who is better into which language? [116]

Greetings, Matt "Administrator"!

As a basically bilingual US-born German-English speaker who learned Polish at the ripe age of about early 30-something, I would say that even the best of us can really only possess at most TWO so-called mother tongues (lit. "father tongues" in Polish = jezyk ojczyny). I would NEVER consider myself bilingual on Polish, probably I never will be and the enlightened native Polish members of this forum would obviously agree! -:)

There are examples however of that notable exception: the true language genius or polyglot who not only masters their second language, but has moved beyond mere mimicry into the wonderworld of stylistically composing to the delight of native speakers in that second language and who then becomes a national standard.

The only human with whom I'm familiar (and have enjoyed reading) was, happily for us
all, a native Pole who never saw his adopted country until in his twenties and never studied his adopted language formally until early adulthood: His name is Joseph ('scuse me "Józef") Conrad (originaly family names escapes me). Curiously, though he wrote like the most masterful of mother-tongue stylists, when he spoke English, his accent and even grammar were said to be embarrassingly "Polish"!

Marek

Michal,
Afrikaans is the only language I know with a "defective" first person of the verb "to be": Ek is..., lit. "I is". Certainly, it's the ony Germanic tongue with this feature with which I'm familiar!

Comments?
Marek

Language / Some example sentences using each of the cases in Polish [33]

Hey, Nick!

Sounds like you're getting into the language more than just casually, if you're seriously interested in how Polish cases work.
My colleagues have given you some good advice. Polish cases can be confusing because not only is gender an issue, but, (as in other Slavic languages compared, say, with German and Latin) the question of whether the noun is "animate" (a living organism) vs. "inanimate" (non-living things; objects ...). Here, case agreement can seem to play tricks on you, i.e. you thought ya got it, then turns out, ya didn't! At least that was the case with me.

Have to run, but again, my colleagues can fill in the blanks until I have more time.
Powodzenia! (Best of luck!)
Marek

Nick,

Here's a quickie example of what I meant. "Widze ten nowy stól." (I see that new table.)
"Widze tego nowego psa" (I see that new dog) (pies=dog). The first sentence uses "widzic" = to see, but what I'm seeing is an inanimate masculine noun (table= stól). In the second sentence, same verb, same case (accusative!) "sees" an animate masculine noun (pies= dog), so the adjective ending changes to the identical endings for the genitive case.

In the beginning, such permutations which native speakers barely think about can seem hoeplessly complex!
Trust me though, they ARE masterable.
Marek

Language / Should I learn both Polish and German [147]

Hi, Glowa!
You're quote reminds me of the youngest daughter in the US-TV sit-com "Six Basic Ways For Dating My Teenage Daughter": "Hey, Allie! Are you going..? - Like, uh- I'm sooo going to the party..."

American slanguage really seems to catch on. Hope the American "standard" (Ooops, did I say a bad word -:) ) at least reaches a first place tie!

---

Michal,

I think you've hit the nail on the head! "If someone is linguistic and thinks they speak well....". Problem is often (not always, I ruefully admit) they DON'T and have inflated egos concerning how linguistic they actually are!

Scandinavians, especially Icelanders and Norwegians, do in fact learn English very thoroughly from very early on. Still, it's a bit of the "Look Ma, no hands!" syndrome of believing oneself to be perfect because everything seems to come so easily.

---

Mihal,

That's different. You're Polish was corrected by a Pole because you're not Polish. My point is different. As an English speaker, what has been the reaction when you correct their English. I wouldn't think it etiquette to correct their Polish being as you're not a native speaker (save for a pure typo, for example).

---

Michal,
That's different. You're Polish was corrected by a Pole because you're not Polish. My point is, as a native English speaker, what has been the reaction when you correct their English? I wouldn't think it etiquette to correct their Polish being as you're not a naitve speaker (save for a pure typo, for instance). Why is English the language which can be trampled over on a regular basis? Is it becoming the case for the tesy of the world as I once saw on a sign over a London bookstore: "BROKEN ENGLISH SPOKEN PERFECTLY"?

Gilbert and Sullivan would be turning over in their graves!
Marek

Language / Formal and Informal Greetings in Polish [21]

Thanks again for your input. My suspicion was right!
Marek

Language / Formal and Informal Greetings in Polish [21]

Dziekuje! :)
"Outdated". Co to znaczy?

Elliot

Language / Formal and Informal Greetings in Polish [21]

Nie oddawno na przyjeciu w Konsulacie Generalnym Rzeczpospolity Polskiej sluchalem:
"Dobry wieczór, Pani Basiu! Caluje Pani raczki." (Przepraszam, nie mam polskich znaków w moim komputerze.)

Czy wyrazenie jeszcze jest zwykle dzisiaj w Polsce, albo przestarzale?
Marek

News / GERMAN PSYCHOPATHS INSULTING POLISH PEOPLE [95]

Anielka,

Orzeszkowa was a 19th, early 20th century, Polish author whose stories revolve around middle-class Polish life. Her language is lovely, e.g. "dlon" instead of "reka" etc.

Her Polish is not elaborate, but is almost like certain 19th century American writers whose names escape me at the moment.

I've never read Zygmunt Herbert, though. I enjoy Julian Tuwim and Jaroslaw Iwaszkiewicz.

Wesolych jajka!
Marek

Language / Should I learn both Polish and German [147]

Yes, that's right!

Not to generalize, but certain nationalities seem actually grateful for correction, non-linguistic speakers as they may be, f. ex. Hispanic speakers, Italian and most Latins (with notable exception of the French:)) know they have trouble with English and appreciate the assistance. Poles, Germans, Scandinavians, Icelanders, also Turks and Hungarians, appear positively insensed if their English is corrected, even in the kindest, most undidactic manner!

The latter, much as a beautiful starlet who has been told she's gorgeous and without a blemish on her face, often give the impression (to me, at any rate) that they believe they speak en masse excellent English, from whom the rest of us can only benefit.

While it may be true that English-language instruction is superior in certain countries, this doesn't necessarily mean that the English-language learning in those countries is anywhere in synch. Why, for instance, is it "cool" for Germans or Dutch to misuse idioms, but "uncool" if Americans speak German or Dutch less than perfectly??

My discontent here lies simply in the double standard.

Marek

News / GERMAN PSYCHOPATHS INSULTING POLISH PEOPLE [95]

Thanks for your prompt reply post, Anielka!

Sorry about the Polish. (Force of habit, I guess). Your English, like Puzzler's, is rather good, I think. Presumably you have no difficulties with the subtleties of our language.

The Fiddler question is also interesting for me, although, don't forget; it's only a movie and therefore, not representative of reality.
Indeed, men and women are not allowed to touch one another on the Sabbath, but there are also other traditions too numerous to explain at the present time.

Off the topic, but on the topic of Polish culture, do you know Elzbieta Orzeszkowa? I love her short stories (which, of course, I've read in the original :) ).

Pozdrawiam!
Marek Pajdo

News / GERMAN PSYCHOPATHS INSULTING POLISH PEOPLE [95]

Czesc, Anielko!

Tylko na piatku wieczorem jest zakazane, ze mezczyzna dotycha kobiete z powodu prawa Torahy

Marek

Puzzler, (Thanks, incidentally, for finally having stopped with that "Mr.Marek," :)
Frankly, your examples indeed feed into anti-semitic rhetoric masked as liberal "free speech" in the name of democracy.

Evidence??? History itself is evidence enough.
In the US, I'm not proud either of slavery or the KKK or of uncounted other matters, but if someone criticizes my country, I don't call them "anti-American"! :)

Incidentally, I love the Polish language and culture. Even a Polish-born Holocaust survivor admits that there are perhaps only three great Poles who rose above the flock: Frederic Chopin ("Szopin", if you prefer!), Jan Karski, who warned the Allies about the Shoah and of course, Karol Wojtyla, who would make me proud to be a Pole.

Marek

Language / Should I learn both Polish and German [147]

Muzyka,

When Poles correct my Polish in this forum, I'm grateful andd try to internalize the correction. The reverse??

In my experience, not usual. :)
Marek

News / GERMAN PSYCHOPATHS INSULTING POLISH PEOPLE [95]

Puzzler,
Your English actually is better than I would have thought.

Very well, I'll continue in English. (Anytime though, I'll switch back to Polish) :) I wish to respond to several of your claims, namely, that you somwhow equate Polonophobiia among Jews with Judeophobia among Polish Christians, is that correct? As a Jews of Polish origin, I must use the chicken/egg analogy: Jews were called into Poland as elsewhere in medaeval Europe and used for their busienss skills ass barganing chips. While it is true, Jews lived separately and did not interact with Poles, this was far from their own choosing.

If anything, blame Jewish clannishness and suspicion on the Cahtolic Church which did not allow Jews to live and practice the professions of Christians.

Marek

Marek, Puzzler, not "Mr. Marek"!!
Marek

News / GERMAN PSYCHOPATHS INSULTING POLISH PEOPLE [95]

Nie, Panie Witku! :)

Zobacz profil, Marek Pajdo.

Twoje pytanie: "Dlaczego zydi od wieków mieszkali w Polsce?" Dobrze, jednak oni nie zostali asimilowane jak w Niemczech.

Marek

Mr. Puzzler,
If I wrote in "broken" Polish, it was in order for me to make myself understood in your native tongue rather than subject myself to YOUR broken English. I assume, as with myself, that you wish to use this forum to practice a second language? :)

"Mr. Marek"is pure Polish, sorry. ("Panie Marku!"), just "Marek" or "Mark"in English.

The remainder of your post is perhaps to be expected. None of us enjoys facing the truth.
Marek

News / GERMAN PSYCHOPATHS INSULTING POLISH PEOPLE [95]

Panie Witku!

Niestety nie wstepowalem na poczatku tej dyskusji, ale Polacy byli strasznymi antisemitami, nawet PO Drugiej Wojnie Swiatowej, n.pr. pogrom Kielcego. Oni byli prawie gorziej niz Niemcy, czy to mozliwe.

Czy znasz ksiazke "Strach" (2005 ?) od Jana Grossa? On mówi o Jedwabne i Kielce coraz antisemityzm w dzisiejszej Polsce.

Pozdrawiam!
Marek