News / Polish-Hungarian friendship - reality till today or just a phantasmagoria [144]

Hello Rock,

Well, I'm making a lot of research, because i have this project, write about the collapse of Rome until the 1000BC, in Europe. One special and interesting subject, is the formation of all these people (onogures, bolgars, toroks), is a grey part of history. I think the basis of interpretation is the foundation of a empire by the akatzires, from the remaining of the Attilas hunnic empire.

To make more clear, the proto-turk, was probably the language from khazars. What happened in this case, is that a third part of the khazar empire name "patria onoguria" (in turkish: onoguria, means 10 arrows, but the right translation should be 10 tribes), then hungary, were forced to speak the official language of the empire. In Kosztolnyik book, in fact is accepeted the people under Arpad rule, were bilingual, megyer (the biggest tribe from the 10 tribes) and turkish speakers. Well, it's necessary just a few decades, for a bilingual people, assimilate terms from each other, and any other aspects, like the religion, costumns, myths and folklore. That's probably why hungarian and turkish languages share same roots.

What I mean, is proto-turkish language was the oficial language for centuries in Khazaria. Of course afterall, there is also the history from the turks (the turkish people, that invaded the hungarian kingdon, but was in total different age). I met several turks in Budapest, and liked specially one who made a excelent food, he owns a restaurant there. In my last days over there, was the place used to eat every day. I have a special interest on then based on a book from Gurdjieff, who treats the circles dances from turks. Fascinating. And went to turk bath also, very cool.

I see you like to read, if so, buy the book from Arthur Koestler, named Kazars, the 13rd tribe. Is very clarifier.

Possibly, there's a natural confusion about the "torok" concept, from the times of the khazar empire (at this time, yes, I completely agree with you, about the relationship between the onogurs and the toroks), what in terms of time, hapenned between the collapse of the hunnic empire, crossing the khazar empire, to the beginning of the russian empire, and the turkish people (who appears centuries later) who assumed a modified torok language, and of course a recognized different ethnicity. See, toroks have something in commom with onogurs, but turkish hardly could have something in common with hungarians, with exception of some words. Onogurs-Toroks were splited in the end of the khazar empire, divided by space (geographicly) and time (centuries), becoming the Turkish and hungarians. However this can be controversal since Hungary had Sultans, and turkish should be talked between hungarians in middle ages.

Well, I think it's my last message over here. For those who are interested to share ideas, and theories, please send me an email at luiz.david1@yahoo.br.

my best regards,
Luiz David Szilagyi

PS. I could not avoid to mention here, march, 23, it's date where the polish people and hungarians comemorate their friendship. The date is valid in both countries. In the city of Gyor, in Hungary, there is a Mark, where the date is remembered.

News / Polish-Hungarian friendship - reality till today or just a phantasmagoria [144]

Hello Rock,

I didn't mean turks did not ruled half Europe, I just said, chinese people developed a concept named Torok, to specifiy a certain type of people, it's a concept of generalization, of certain races, despite they are one or more people. I think more simple, say the Torok People is by definition "foreigners who nomad people", for example. If, later this people ruled half Europe, in a organized way, it's other point.

Turk, chuvash, khazar, all then have the same origin. All these people were from the west and central Asia. The megyer tribe who formed later the magyar, and the onoguria federation, they were from the north of Asia.

There's a weather theory, that says, at certain times, the arctic circle forms a so brutal cold, that pushes animals and men to the south to more apropriate lands. That's the reason megyers, were agregated by the huns and later the khazars. After centuries, looks natural to me, megyers words and "turk" words were exchanged between then, don't you think? I mean, even in this Forum, like here, I see people saying brasilian words. I think it's natural.

And honestly, let's take a look, Probably the english will dominate, in some decades. The british and americans, made a good job.

have a nice day!
David

Hello Marek and Constantinek.

I prefer Cardoso. Hes a techar from Sorbonne, speaks 4 languages perfectly. Lula can not speak portuguese right. He never was in a high school. Sad but true.

Yes, our prince is named Attila. And for your suprise the first king of Portugal was a hungarian prince. It's normal, all the kings from Europe are relatives. Hungary had a Poland King also, I think Laszlo (Ladislau) Second or Third, I don't remember. My surname was gaven by this Pole King. I'm not sure, but I believe Szilagyi comes from Szlachta. I have to investigate more later.

MMA, wow, I think you mean brazilian jiu-jitsu. Well it's good. But I think the Capoeira is more finest and cool !!

Poles and Hungarians support each other for centuries. The swedish invasion, one duke of Szekely served the Pole King. In 1956, Poland supported Hungary in the russian invasion. In Early Arpads Dinasty, If I remeber as well, Galizia, were from Hungary. Later became Poland. I think it's fair.

In 1848, Hungarian, became an independent Kingdon, from the Austrian-Hungarian empire, for general information.

The relationship between the Czechs-Poles-Hungarians, I think it's clear. These three countries, were against the "mother" Russia. Poland first, Hungary Second, and Czechs the latest. The famous Prague's Springer. Beautiful story.

"Tá bom", is more like "that's fine". LOL.

regards!

News / Polish-Hungarian friendship - reality till today or just a phantasmagoria [144]

Hello Folks,

I was in a trip, I came back yesterday.

Well, I think it's necessary to make some corrections. Yes, hungarians have some connection with siberians. Tungas and some Samoyeds. For example, healer, its the same word in hungarian and tunga (saman).

Hungarians, had mixed with slavic and germanic people, that's why the face, body, eyes, and many other features, from the ancient people, were lost. Hungarians, by nature, it's a people who always gave a piece of earth from those requested it. And remember we're talking of centuries of mixing, wars, invasions, exodus, and many others. It's a chalenge to find a pure race among the people over there. I chalenge anyone. Even the Maltese, islanders, were mixed.

Hungarian is more related to the vogul languages, rather than ostiac languages. Hungarian and finnish have the same semantic for sentence construcutions, and the simmilaities end here. About the simmilarities between turk and hungarian, I think, it's more appropriate to say what's the older language, and then say, what language it's similar to what. Hungarian is the oldest, from these 2. How said before, turk it's a concept, from chinese people, not a race or ethnicity.

In terms of dressing folklore, bulgarians are very close to hungarians. Same style.

How I told before, one of the theories, says, poles, descends from kipchaqs (there was a invasion of these people from the step, after the khazar empire). Since hungarians are people descend from people of the step, I think right to assure poles and hungarians have the same dna. It's named "shine factor".

The people that's close to hungarians in terms of ethnicity, probably are the khazares only. Quite distant... Hungarians formed the one third of the khazar empire, and later the old great bulgarian empire.

And don't forget the baskires from Spain-France. They were people from step also. They're like martians, in Europe, probably more than hungarians.

Guys I like to read a lot, and there're many books, that point this facts: Khazars, the 13rd tribe, from Arthur Koestler; Attila and nomad hordes, from David Nicolle, there is a rare book, that can be found at amazon (lucky me own a copy of this) named Hungary at Early Arpads, from Kosztolnyik; Barbarian Invasions in Europe, from Bury, and Dead Man Eaters, from Michael Crichton (there's movie also, with Antonio Banderas - it's about the foundation of Kiev by the Vikings). In fact, I think the origin of these tribes and people are fascinanting. My retirement project, for the future, it's write a book about ancient history from 1000 BC to 1000 DC.

The book from Nicolle, clarifies, there were several invasions. Huns were the first, followed by the Onogurs, then Pechenegs (who gradually merged with other peoples icluding Torks and Kipchaqs), and finally the mongols. The latest always pushing the previous. That's the reason, the avars for example moved from the black sea, to the actual Bavaria. The region of Ucraine is righ, and very ffertile for agriculture, it was a region, naturally desired for colonozations, from the people of the step. The puszta..... I believe, one probable names from Buda-Pest, specially Pest, comes from Puszta. Buda, probaly from Bleda, Attila's brother. These were the greatest invasions, of course I do not teach intent music for violinist, but I do my particular researches, and I can scratch a while.

Well, and if you want to know a curiosity (and this is a fact): There was a great civilization in south Mexico named Mayans. They discovered the Zero concept, developed calendars, and conquered many other tribes in Central America. They are considered the Greeks from America.

Well the curiosity now: The ideograms from these people, is very similar to an ancient chinese writing. In fact, There's a book named "Mayan book of deads", from Paul Arnold, that makes the analogy in the end. It's all there. Well, if mayans could write chinese, thousands years ago, why poles and hungarians could not share the same DNA? Why turks could not got hungarians (onogurians) words? I say, a person from Italy, can make a trip by feet and walk to China if wants it. Marco Polo made it several times, using the silk road. Eurasia it's one continent only, the mixing of ethnicities is unavoidable. Exception to the chinese and their great wall.

best regards people !!!
Valeu galera !!!
David

News / Polish-Hungarian friendship - reality till today or just a phantasmagoria [144]

hello Seanus,

what is MMA?

In fact Polish People has my respect also. Many nobel prizes. And one of my favorite writers is Henryk Sienkiewicz. I was reading a book about the Polish empire. Very soft reading. The first book is about the war against the cossacs, the second against the swedish. The last against the tartars. Very, Very good, recommended.

Constantinek, I'm surprised to see how can you know the Brasilian history. Actually, we had a referendum, around 12 years ago. Brasil, almost put back his King to the throne again. Unfortunatelly, our president Lula still around here. Our prince is called Attila, and royal family, lives in a city called Petropolis in Rio de Janeiro.

I was thinking how portuguese can be confusing... our S sometimes, assumes the value of english S, or the english Z. Our X, assumes the greek X (like in axiom), english Z, or the polish SZ. And so far....

Other thing, I read a book, about Polish myths, from my wife. There's a tale, who says, the 3 main slav people, they are the czecs, rus and lech (Polish people). I know czecs=Czechs, Rus=Russians, but I could never guess Lech means Polish. Does this world means something in Polish?

Another tale is about the origin of the Warsaw. It's a fisherman who falls in love for a siren. His name is Wars, and the Siren's (Or mermaid, I don't remember) name is Saw. So they got married, Warssaw. Cool !

best regards fellows,

David

News / Polish-Hungarian friendship - reality till today or just a phantasmagoria [144]

Helllo Seanus,

Yes I made it, sorry about. It's because I did not turned key correctly in my brain.... lol. For us in Brasil, dependind of the circunstances, the S and Z, have the same sound. So Brazil and Brasil, have exactly same sound for us, differently from the guys who speak english or german, or hungarian. These people must write with Z, to sound it right. The portuguese rules, despite being phonographic, do not follow certain rules. The study of portuguese is very complex in comparison to english. For the current S for example in portuguese, can be written as being S, C, SS, Ç or SC. All then with the phonographic value of the english S. So, how a foreigner can write in portuguese? My german techar is in Brasil almost 5 years, and still writing many words wrong.

MIchal2, it was not so hard to made how you thought.... Argentina is completely different country, they Speak a variatnion of Spanish, named Castellano (small differences between then), and the food is nice. I was in Buenos Aires, around 10 years ago. Nice food, nice women. In fact, it's the only country in Americas, where the people can request the spanish citizenship. Neither mexicans can do it.

regards,
David

News / Polish-Hungarian friendship - reality till today or just a phantasmagoria [144]

Hello Marek,

Well, I have to say, my grandfather, was a specialist in languages, he use to speak 16 languages, between alive and dead languages, these includes, latin, greek, sumerian (don't ask me how was this), italian, spanish, portuguese, french, jewish, spanish, hungarian, german, russian, quechua, chachapoa, japanese, mandarim, and strangely, he hated the english. He was a writer and wrote two books in hungarian. Becauses os problems of internal fights and inheritance in my family, the original books were lost. I think languages it's in the blood. He was french-hungarian, and fought in WWII, in the french side.

I was born in Brasil (it's with S not Z, and Brasil means "live coal",it's not portuguese word, how almost everybody use to believe, but indeed it's arabic. But to clarify, I'm a first generation born here, and grew up, among hungarians here, I use to talk hungarian, almost to my 3 years, but how my father it's a engineer, we use to move around Brasil, to other places, and this forced me to learn the portuguese and forget the hungarian. I got my hungarian citizenship 4 years ago. We in Brasil, we do speak portuguese not spanish, how may people use to think. In Brasil, we have around 150 million portuguese speakers, around 200 thousand spanish speakers, and same number of Guarani (indian language) speakers. Portuguese it's a very complex latin language derived from an ancient language named Romance.

In Brazil, there's a big colony hungarians, were I live aside, named Vila Anastacio. It's a suburb inside the city of São Paulo (fourth biggest city in the world, it looks like New York, lots of things in common). This suburb, there's lots hungarians and other generations of hungarians, of then here. It's normal, to found then walking down by the street here. And there are suburbs of italians, portuguese, spanish, jewish, japanese, arabic and germans. My grandfather from the side of my mom, came after the WWII. my dad, ran away the russian invasion of the 1956, with my uncle, whose today is living at USA.

My wife, who descend from Polands, came from a city named Cascavel, in other state from Brasil, named Paraná. We suspect they're from Galizia, and probably came before the WWI. In south of Brasil, where the weather, is more like Europe (yes, we have snow), they formed many cities. There are cities of Polands (like Cascavel), Ucranians, Russians and Germans (like Pomerode, Potsdam-Pozdan). In fact, the second biggest oktoberfest of the world is in Brasil, in the city of Blumenau. In these citis, is very common to find people, speaking the language of their ancestors. Very common. There's 2 cities, in south Brasil, colonized by hungarians, it's Apucarana (Apu, I know it's a way to say father or in latin pater, I'm not an expert, but probably it's a word corrupted, originally meaning "Patria"), and another city named Bratislava (Posony). In state of Rio de Janeiro, there's a entire city of finnish people named Penedo. However Germans and Polands, are majority in south of Brasil. From my city São Paulo to Cascavel, the distance it's the same from Budapest to Paris. Brasil it's the fith biggest country in the world.

Languages, I'm a native portuguese speaker; english and spanish it's almost obligatory to learn here, but you have to pay by yourself for this here. No facilities from the state, I mean schools. I got some german lessons. Made some hungarian lessons, here, (very expensive), but in fact, polish it's a considerable possibility, since the polish colony in São Paulo, give the lessons for free. Spanish for us, is very easy, it's almost like dutch and german, you know. A six month class of spanish, and you can become a fluent speaker. Italian, also, it's very easy to us. One year of lessons, and it's ok. French more hard, something like 2 years. English very hard, since it's a germanic not an latin language like the others. For a portuguese speaker learn the english at least 4 years. That's because, (this is not a critic for the english), the sintax of portuguese is inverted in comparison to english. And same applies to spanish speakers.

I have plans to the future to move to Budapest, where, I ahve aunts and cousins. Gyor city it's another possibility. I heard about Slovenia, they like the hungarians, it's another possibility I consider, like Austria, Germany, the Scandinavian countries, and Poland also. I work with Information technology and Poland, it's the best country to work with this in central and eastern Europe. I saw some IBM executives talking about the global market, and Poland, it's the open door for those who want to invest in this part of Europe. If it's a good possibility of this happens Warsow and Krakow are my choices. In fact, when arriving in Europe, I will learn the language what I have to learn, no problem with this.

Things in Brasil, are not going fine. Many problems with corruption, and global crisis, that will reach us next year. The retirement funds here, are broken, public health is bankrupted. Education, it's not good, how I told you, if want to learn something, you to do it outside the regular schools from state. We pay almost 35 % of taxes here. It's amazing, we work 4 months for the government for free, considering one year of work. And nothing come back to us. Car traffic, man, I will tell you. Big problem.

In comparison with Finland, were I heard they pay lots of taxes, but the state can give a more worthy life for the citizens.

Well, Brasil in other instances, have lots of good things. Nice shores, nice food (becoming more expensive now). We buy a dozen bananas here, for 1 dolar. In supermarket I use to spend 200 hundred dollars, to buy food and house stuff for cleaning and other things. We have many many rivers. Water will never be a problem for Brazil, like food.

Marek, my uncle in USA (he's living there, since 1958), told me once, if you can tell some jokes, and make somebody laugh, and express complex ideas in english, you're ready to work with the americans.

And something to know, turk (from torok) it's a chinese word, meaning nomad people, this word became used after the dissolution of khazar empire. So, this is a concept, neither a language or ethnicity. Many people believe hungarians are close to turks. Considering the sequence of facts of history, I guess turks are close to hungarians, since the concept of hungarians (ten tribes) in "strictus sensus", of the word is oldest than turk-torok (nomad people) concept. I think people use to get confused because of the turkish invasion, in medieval times.

And other point, Nipon and Japan means the same thing. In old hungarian language this means Sun Land. Strangely the Japan Flag, has a symbol of a sun in red. This only shows the hungarian-magyar language, are more close to asiatic groups rather than germanic or slavic.

best regards fellow,
David

News / Polish-Hungarian friendship - reality till today or just a phantasmagoria [144]

Hello Marek,

No doubt the Palócs are polish people. Hungarians by their nature, are people whose always gave "asylum" for pursued or defeated people. The formation of hungary by itself was made by many ethnicities.

Note for example the Szeleys are Kabars, and other good example are the Cumans (The Kum surnname in Hungary is very common), a people from the step, like the Jassic too. The Palócs people, indeed are poland people, but why they were aggregated, it's a mistery.

Other point the kabars (Szekely) were formally a part of the kazar empire. From some reason, they broke up with the kazar empire. Now, using some linguistig transformations, and considering the way they use to write centuries ago (silabic from the right to left, like the jews, and mentioning here the Rovas), Szekel could be naturally lKesze, and transforming a bit more kezer, almost kazar. With the centuries the magyar language predominated that language. The word corruption is very normal.

Other point remember Onoguria, means 10 tribes, from a proto-turkic language, as Bulgaria means mixed people. The Megyer tribe, the main tribe who ruled over the others, was Uralic people indeed, of finnic origin, not samoyed (siberian). Maybe one of the remained untouched in terms of culture are the Mordovians. In the coat of arms from Hungary you can see there are seven houses (Megyer, Jenő, Keszi, Nyék, Kér, Tarján, while Kürt - Kurt/Kubrat/Dulo was one of the most ancient clans from Old Great Bulgaria - and Gyarmat merged into one tribe making it seven total) and that's the real magyar confederation. Onoguria (10 tribes) was formelry these 7 plus 3 Kabar tribes whose names are not known for sure (with the usual suspects being Ság, Ladány, Berény, Tárkány). The history from Hungary, mixes everytime, within the huns, khazars and bulgars. I made a particular reasearch of the origin of my surname, and I discovered, that my clan, it's bulgarian not hungarian. The surname was changed 4 times, since 300 BC.

The ancient Onoguria, was more close to black sea, and use to represent a third of the khazar empire. It's supposed the Khazar empire was composed between 30 to 35 tribes confederated. Today in Cazaquistan, there a remaining part of old-Onoguria, a tribe called Madiar. In their grave, is wrote the under the name, the word Madiar.

One point that's important, Poles and Hungarians, had a interesting treat about the northern carpatian. There were Gorales (Polish) and Szekelys (Hungarians) living together.

Despite origins from the Poles (I read theories about wandals, kipchaqs, slavs or vikings), whatever they come from, they are very repectfull.

Well, it's known, there were several nomad invasions in Europe. Since it's known began with Attila. The hunnic empire, and a tribe under then began to rule, the akatzires, then forming the khazar empire. After this consider the Pechenegs, and then the Kipchaqs (may be ancestors of Poles) and finally mongols. The newest always pushing the oldest to the west. It's known the current state of Poland was formed by a good part from old kazars. These jewish khazars were hosted in the territory of Galizia, main city Krakow. Read the book from Arthur Koestler, it's all there. The history from Galizia, in parts are very similar to Hungary. Other point reinforces it, consider there are only 3 territories around the world named Galizia-Poland (Galatia-Israel or Galizia-Spain), all then founded and occupied by jewish people. Khazarian Empire was the unique jewish country around the world.

In some post I read, the Poles and Hungarians has some common part of DNA. Surely, people from step probably share the same root. Hungarians-Uralic and Poles-Kipchaqs. It's the genetic "shiny" factor.

Another theory says, the people who have blond hair and blue eyes, come from an very old ancestor, a human mutation, to make him more able to survive in cold territories (more adaptative to the snow).

Abou the english, well it's hard to make it right when you have to make it in one shot.

Best regards,
David

News / Polish-Hungarian friendship - reality till today or just a phantasmagoria [144]

Hello guys,

Just to have a little more light about some points. I'm hungarian also, and got married with a polish woman. So I have a strong relationship with the pole culture.

By the facts now: Hungarians, are related to asian groups of ethnicity, not slavic, neither turk or persian. By the language they are more related to finnish guys, then others. Of course there lot's of influence from german, latin, greek and slavic. Who does not?

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hungarian_people
Lectures: Khazars, from Arthur Koestler

In Northeast of Hungary there's a specific hungarian ethnic group named Palócs. Guess what? It's not necessary to be an expert to conclude, they are Polands absorbed by hungarians. Not a problem, since these people respect each other for centuries.

Other point, Hungary can achieve the "Pan-Hungary", only by culture and language, never by terrytory, since Hungary signed the Helsinki Agreement.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helsinki_Agreement

However, to a european country join the European Union, the country MUST, achieve some points. Regarding minorities, for example Slovakia and Romania, Had to solve the problems with hungarians, and other minorities in their countries. They solved the problem and they joined. Same was applied to Slovenia, Croatia, Slovakia, and Romania. Austria was the first to solve it, for croatians and hungarians. These major problem was created by Trianon Agreement.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Trianon

The problem with Rutenia in Ukraine is a double problem. Rutenia, belongs to Ukraine today, because of russian invasion of 1956, not Trianon. Ukraine has a big problem. They want to join EU, but they have to give back Rutenia to Hungary. Hungary by the other side, can not get Rutenia Back, because of Helsinki Agreement. The Solution, probaly is Rutenia become an Independent Country, like Montenegro on Serbia.

This could be the same situtation to serbia and Hungarians from Servia. If some day Serbia joins the EU, they must sove the problems of hungarians there, Like Romania made with the Transilvania (with hungarians and saxons), and Slovakia, in the southern region. My aunt, is always visiting Bihar, in Transilvania. Today Bihar is double language Romanian and Hungaria, like the EU constitution says.

And the problem with WWII, I think it was more a problem, of the supposed austrian-hungarian empire.

What I learned about the hungarian culture, since the "Onoguria" times, is a people who always give Sanctuary for those who needs it. It's possible to check it, about the kabars, austrians, croatians, and incredibly spanish and frenches. Yes, the city of Banat, was founded by then, when they were pursued by catholic inquisitors.

I could spent all night long here, typing many other things about hungarians. I read, a lot about this ancient and controversal history, and I believe that a european union can be only possible if we forget the bad past.

Personnaly, I always considered the eastern europeans more brothers. The western more like cousins :). I like the ukrainians, the poles, slovakians, croatians, slovenes, romanians, bulgarians, georgians, estonians, russians. After centuries, in terms of race, we're the same people. Only with dna analysis it's possible to discover a relationship. In fact, it was proved 1 man in 200, around the world is descendant from Gengis Khan.

And yes, I know there's the culture, the language, the religion and so on. But Socrates said once, "It's respecting the differences, we can live really free".

I believe in the hungarian-polish friendship, I'm hungarian (Szilagyi), married with a polish woman (Chrusciak). And if someday I have a son, he will have both surnames.

The saber is saved, and I leave a toast for the Polish fellows here (in preference with a tokaji), like the saying of the post. Cheers !