Real Estate / Budimex Murano development (central Warsaw) Phase I [38]

I really don't think this is a possibility. They're under no obligation to give us something for nothing.

However, my estate agent in Warsaw (warsawproperties.pl) tells me that they are prepared to be lenient regarding the timing of the 85% payment for the Murano development. If any buyers experience delays in raising the required capital (due to the current very tight mortgage market) that cause them to miss the end of May deadline then, in all likelihood, Budimex will not charge interest for late payment.

Fair enough, I suppose.

Real Estate / Real Estate hits a new low in Poland [86]

I think the US is the only country in the world where if a borrower hands back the keys to the lender he owes *nothing* from that point onwards.

Real Estate / Real Estate hits a new low in Poland [86]

Although foreign currency lending may well be the quickest way to make the previously creditworthy insolvent ;)

Real Estate / Typical flat offer prices in Poland [17]


I wouldn't tar all high end developments with the same brush. Personally I think *well located* high end city centre developments in Warsaw and Krakow will do well long term.

Real Estate / People who bought in Katowice Oak teraces phase I and phase II [102]

Margaret - if you have a ten year plan then yes your reasoning is rock solid. One thing that would concern me is liquidity; you will of course find it harder to sell at any point between now and the property realising its full potential if you really needed to.

Real Estate / Real Estate hits a new low in Poland [86]

What I don't understand is, if Polish companies were hedging by buying options on the Zloty, all they could lose is the premium they paid upfront.

Or were they speculating by WRITING (selling) options?

Real Estate / Real Estate hits a new low in Poland [86]

Bolek, what did you purchase exactly, where, and for how much? If you don't mind me asking.

Real Estate / Real Estate hits a new low in Poland [86]

Is the proportion of American buyers particularly high?

Real Estate / Real Estate hits a new low in Poland [86]

Sorry scorpio, I didn't mean you specifically - it's just that I've seen many people tout farmland, forests, orchards etc. as THE investment to go for purely because foreigners cannot buy it - the reasoning being that as soon as they're allowed in they'll drive up the price. It's far better to look at inherent value and utility.

Actually there is a Polish "corporate" and entrepreneurial middle class. It's small at the moment but growing.

Kilkline - in the UK there was a large amount of new development on the outskirts of cities, where no one wanted to live. Similarly in Spain - there was a great deal of holiday home development in coastal areas with no land restrictions. Land in the CENTRE of a national capital is at a premium. Hence Warsaw high end is a different market.

Real Estate / Real Estate hits a new low in Poland [86]

Exactly what is this obsession with farmland? Are highly paid corporate employees more likely to need city centre apartments or farmland?

I'm also curious to know from what level these Warsaw city centre apartments are going to fall "40 per cent". In the last 3 years they have been sold in the price range 10 to 20 K PLN/sqm. That's one hell of a range.

Real Estate / Loan market in Poland - summary [15]


And now these Western institutions are extracting PLN from Polish banks to pay their debts? I think not.

Real Estate / Loan market in Poland - summary [15]

Andy, do you think the Polish mortgage market will bounce back much quicker than in the West? Personally I do.

The fact is Poland's banking system has no inherent weakness - at least compared to its Western counterparts. There is no toxic subprime debt on the balance sheets and total lending as a proportion of GDP is barely an 1/8th of British and US levels.

Real Estate / Putting pressure on developers to cut final installment on a development construction in Poland [17]

Ozdan, it's difficult to respond to what you've said as they're just your feelings - to which you are fully entitled. But I genuinely don't believe you can compare prices in different standard developments in different locations. Just because 2 properties are "high end central Warsaw" it doesn't mean they're going to have the same price per sq m. And do note that this listing was up over the Christmas period which is incredibly quiet.

Real Estate / Budimex Murano development (central Warsaw) Phase I [38]

Mr Justice Done, do you actually mean 'lose' rather than 'loose'? Apart from not being able to spell you are a complete moron. Don't you think for every foreigner who loses money due to falling property prices there are not at least 10 local Poles who'll lose too? And on the whole they're much less likely to be able to afford it.

Real Estate / Budimex Murano development (central Warsaw) Phase I [38]

Thanks kneehawk, that's very useful indeed. There's a chance that Budimex are simply in breach of contract as the agreement allows for only a 2 month delay and they seem to be 4 months behind.

Real Estate / Budimex Murano development (central Warsaw) Phase I [38]

Thanks Polanglik, that's pretty useful information. Would pulling out be the same as renegotiating from a credit rating perspective?

Also, surely there's a fair chance that the developer would actually WANT to renegotiate given that it's no longer "their" market?

Real Estate / Budimex Murano development (central Warsaw) Phase I [38]


I'm sure you were one of the nice ones! Thanks for the info Sean.

Real Estate / Putting pressure on developers to cut final installment on a development construction in Poland [17]


What are you on about? One is for sale, but the ONE WE'RE TALKING ABOUT ON THIS THREAD isn't. I really can't make things any simpler than that.


That's not terribly logical. If you think somebody's not a good businessman then surely you should do business with him/her as you're likely to come off better in any deal you strike.

It's also somewhat odd that you think NOT exploring all your options is what makes one a better businessman. Then again, business culture does vary from country to country, and I don't have much experience of Poland.

Real Estate / Budimex Murano development (central Warsaw) Phase I [38]

Sorry Sean. To be honest I don't know. They would insist on writing these contracts in Polish..

Seriously, I'll have a look, but I don't think the penalty clause (if there is one) will be my biggest bargaining chip - market conditions will.

Real Estate / Putting pressure on developers to cut final installment on a development construction in Poland [17]

Ah, that was the other one - the first one I was talking about. That's still for sale. I haven't tried to sell the Budimex/Murano apartment, the one we're talking about here.

Real Estate / Budimex Murano development (central Warsaw) Phase I [38]


Interesting point - that's certainly a possibility. My strong preference would be to renegotiate rather than just walk away.

If I were a developer stuck with unsold flats I would seriously consider it because it produces far better cashflow (but not paper profits) than just sitting on them. Then again Budimex may be awash with cash, who knows!

Real Estate / Budimex Murano development (central Warsaw) Phase I [38]

Budimex is owned by Ferrovial, the largest Spanish developer. They aren't doing too brilliantly.

Real Estate / Putting pressure on developers to cut final installment on a development construction in Poland [17]


I haven't tried to sell so I don't know, to be honest. The majority of flats in the development were sold to locals.


Isn't it better not to forfeit the deposit and renegotiate the contract to make the purchase price 20% less? Doesn't that make more sense?


Well, that's a bit of an assumption! Not so desperate actually as I have no debt whatsoever. But, is anyone ever really *sure* what to do, given these volatile times? I'm exploring different options as any good businessman would. Threads are a useful way of doing that.

Real Estate / Budimex Murano development (central Warsaw) Phase I [38]

We could argue about morals endlessly. The fact is Budimex specified the 10/90 payment structure, not us. That would have put them in the perfect position to mess us around when the market hit the skies in 2009, as it was supposed to have done :)

Sean - when swimming with sharks it helps not to be totally toothless. Investors banding together helps to even the scales somewhat. One small private investor is NOT equal to one multibillion $ developer.

Avalon, I'm sure you've missed your true vocation as a priest somewhere along the line, but just remember, it's very easy and cheap to preach morality when it's not YOUR money on the line but someone else's. Maybe think about that, or look up the word hypocrite in a good English-Polish dictionary.


Two words, in fact: common sense

PS I'm not attributing any wrongdoing or dishonesty whatsoever to Budimex. It's just that other developers employing sharp tactics have given investors the idea that they can play the same game when the market looks different.

Thread attached on merging:
NEW: Budimex Murano development (central Warsaw) Phase I

I'm trying to get as many investors as possible to persuade the developer to renegotiate contracts to give us all significant discounts on the overall price, say 20%.

Not only have apartment prices fallen but Budimex are delaying completion until Spe 2009 - four months later than agreed.

The fact investors owe an outstanding 90% gives us massive leverage against the developer - it'll be really stuck if sales fall through.

POLITE REQUEST: Please only comment on this thread if you have useful and relevant information or indeed are a Murano investor. If you want to morally posture, there are other threads to do so. Thank you.

Real Estate / Budimex Murano development (central Warsaw) Phase I [38]


I totally agree, airlines and developers are as "honest" (ahem) as one another


So you define "honour" as putting yourself out of pocket rather than defending your own interests? Interesting. I'm simply suggesting that both parties could be reasonable so that neither one is stuck with too much of a loss.


No, just lots of clauses in their favour, surprise surprise! The key clause is that they get to keep my 10% if I don't complete. The question now is whether they would want this or not.

Real Estate / Budimex Murano development (central Warsaw) Phase I [38]

Nicely put, Harry.

Real Estate / Budimex Murano development (central Warsaw) Phase I [38]

All fair, if not helpful, points Avalon. But:

a) "Honour" is a wonderful concept - I wish there was more of it in the world - but I really suggest you look up the word "business" in the dictionary.

b) The final agreed price was based on completion in May 2009, not Sep 2009. This delay is a new "feature" I wasn't aware of.

c) They would probably be trying to do the same to me had prices gone up 50%. See (a) above.

e) (Got something against the letter d? ;-)) Requesting that a contract be renegotiated is neither lying not cheating. They have the right to say no.

The fact that Budimex were prepared to take 90% at the end with only 10% upfront means we investors potentially have a lot of clout to use against them as they could be stuck with 90% of their cashflow missing and the apartments to sell all over again. Obviously it's not in my interests to see this happen, as I'd lose my 10%, so why don't BOTH parties try to (re)negotiate something sensible? Eh?

PS do you work for a developer? Budimex by any chance?

Real Estate / Putting pressure on developers to cut final installment on a development construction in Poland [17]

Harry, when you say high end central Warsaw prices have come down 20%, are you basing that on the 20 000 PLN/sqm or so prices that were being touted 15 months ago?

From what I understand 12 to 13 is still pretty much the norm for completed flats.

Real Estate / Putting pressure on developers to cut final installment on a development construction in Poland [17]

I have bought in Phase I of the Murano development by Budimex in central Warsaw. The date for the final 90% payment is May 2009, and my off plan purchase price in July 07 was 12 700 Pln/sqm.

Anyone else?

For those of you that are Property Secrets members, here is a link to the discussion I started:

propertysecrets.net/forum/budimex_murano_development_phase_i_in_central_warsaw/10360/35513.html