History / Col.Jozef Swiatlo-Secret agent, torturer, CIA-collaborator to be tried? [145]


In case you haven't noticed PiS was at the helm long enough. Are you thick; there hasn't been a right wing Parliment yet. Ex-marxists and today's new left are not interested in prosecuting their predecesors' crimes. There is the old guard throughout the system since they only shared power with the new left. You have seen how deathly affraid they all are of lustration.

Like I said there hasn't been any real transfer of power. Now, why people voted in communists again is a sadder question.

I told you before, look up gen.Fieldorf daughters' struggle since 1990. I think Salinist prosecutor Witold Gatner was practising law in Warsaw till last year!


It is true. She died before the trial started. She most likely used the fake doctor note to not to show up to hearings and thus delaying the process.


I'm not your secretary, so do your own research and post it.

History / Col.Jozef Swiatlo-Secret agent, torturer, CIA-collaborator to be tried? [145]

Had there been a real turn over of power in 1989, the Stalinist murderers would have been prosecuted swiftly. Instead, they have been collecting hefty pensions for their hard work executing patriots till last year, when PiS took them away. I have a feeling you haven't been following the political scene in Poland.

Was the prosecutor Stefan Michnik implicated in the Pilecki murder?

History / Jewish love towards Poles [389]

True.

History / Col.Jozef Swiatlo-Secret agent, torturer, CIA-collaborator to be tried? [145]

I will be glad to talk to you about Pilecki after we get somewhere with the Fieldorf case.


Maria Gurowska died before she went to trial in 98. She was the main judge and she was in the process of being prosecuted. It took time, six years, to bring her to trial, which was set, but she died. Harry suggested that the courts were slow to prosecute her because she was a Catholic Pole. She was not. She was a Jewess. Besides, she was the specialist in quick trials; shall we do the same? Now, all the key people in this case were Jewish. Not one has been brought to justice. Now, Harry's argument has now turned on him. No wonder he is not here to defend his nonsense.

Some are alive and live in Warsaw and Israel. Yes, the question is why are they not brought to justice? Of course the case with Isreal is clear; they never give up criminals.


Harry has given us didly so far in terms of facts AND will probably continue to do so in the future.

History / Col.Jozef Swiatlo-Secret agent, torturer, CIA-collaborator to be tried? [145]


You are getting closer to the begining of understanding the Third Rzeczpospolita Polska.

Another good point from Harry. He is on a roll. Maybe he would tell us why they weren't prosecuted.


What about them. Fieldorf is not here to testify against them and that was before cameras were in torture cells. They probably didn't describe and sign their interogation methods. The people whose signatures are on the documents is what counts.

History / Col.Jozef Swiatlo-Secret agent, torturer, CIA-collaborator to be tried? [145]


Because she was Polish?


You are clearly not familiar with Fieldorf's daughter's efforts for over ten years.


You have got to get over the Jew thing. Post some info, not only your goofy opinions, please.


I'm sorry but I'm busy at the moment wiping my ... with Harry and we're on the Filedorf trial.


Harry, it turns out they are all Jewish.

"In a more complicated case, Poland’s authorities have been unable to prosecute several persons implicated in the judicial murder on trump-up charges of killing Jews, Communists, and Soviet POWs of General August Emil Fieldorf (“Nil”) of the Home Army. The persons involved in the sordid affair include Kazimierz Górski, Alicja Graff, and Witold Gatner, who reside in Poland, and Stefan Michnik and Fajga Mindla Danielak aka Helena Wolińska, who live abroad. A few participants in the murder lived unmolested until their recent deaths in independent Poland after 1989 (Igor Andrejew and Maria Zand-Górowska) or abroad (Beniami n Wajsblech, Emil Mertz, and Gustaw Auscaler).[Israel]

His 'defendor', Jerzy Mering lives in Israel too.

History / Col.Jozef Swiatlo-Secret agent, torturer, CIA-collaborator to be tried? [145]


Oh, thank you Harry. You should be more careful. But, I have a feeling you are trying to say something and just don't know how to phrase it. I hope writing isn't your profession.


Heck, let's see what you got. You can splash them here.


The Hague would have been a better choice but not for the reason you state. I think she would have. There would have been a lot of international attention. It also would have raised questions like: Why haven't communist crimes been accounted for and perpetrators punished? Why do kids have Holocaust studies and not just genocide studies, if you really must burden them with that? Why isn't it a crime to deny communist crime, like it is to deny the Holocaust? A missed chance.


Not a chance. The communists were in control. He was Polish and his father a Nationalist.

History / Col.Jozef Swiatlo-Secret agent, torturer, CIA-collaborator to be tried? [145]

The case was closed because she didn't bother to turn up in court?

History / Col.Jozef Swiatlo-Secret agent, torturer, CIA-collaborator to be tried? [145]


Are you obsessed or something? Do your own research and post it, this should be good.


You are even making a case against yourself. Gurowska was prosecuted in 1992. She died in 1998. Case closed. Woliska was alive and "from 1999-2008, Poland had been seeking the extradition of Wolińska from the United Kingdom to stand trial in Poland. The official charges against her were initiated by the Commission for Investigating Crimes against the Polish Nation. Wolińska was accused of being an "accessory to a court murder," classified as a Stalinist crime and a crime of genocide"

They should have lots to say about her!

There is always a chance that you found interesting the fact they prosecuted a Pole before a Jew. Or shall we just call her British, of a British Jew?


You want an NGO to chase crimes against the Polish people? Criricism by the opposition, that is rich. The communists are crying now. How sad and unchristian like to prosecute criminals.

History / Col.Jozef Swiatlo-Secret agent, torturer, CIA-collaborator to be tried? [145]


IPN used primary sources. That is what historians do.


Maybe I am confused with the definition of derogatory.

History / Col.Jozef Swiatlo-Secret agent, torturer, CIA-collaborator to be tried? [145]

Peter,

It refreshing to talk to someone who doesn't see a Jew hater behind every rock.

I'm not sure why you say the statistics come from wiki when they actually come from historians at IPN. The figure of 1.7% you gave is roughly correct, and would raise no eyebrows since Jews made up around 1% of the population. At the decision making level they were hugely overrespresented. 167 of 450 positions is significant. When Jews are overrepresented in, say medicine, it is a cause for celebration, in this case it should be a source of shame and simply aknowledged. Poles are not proud of the executioners among us, and should be brought to justice. Notice that Helena Wolińska, a Stalinist procecutor, also cried anti-semitism when Poland tried to get her extradited from England.


When it's a famous non-religious Jewish musician, politician, or scientist, he is still a Jew; when it's criminal - he is not. That is called a double standard.


Officer corps in any army also make a small percentage of the overall numbers, yet they make decisions - they play the leading role.

History / Col.Jozef Swiatlo-Secret agent, torturer, CIA-collaborator to be tried? [145]


Calling me an anti-semite based on


is a blow below the belt. It is done often enough. I guess my previous statement


went over your head.


The Polish Blue Police were not volunteers; Żagiew and 13 were. Volunteers to work for the Gestapo against their fellow Jews. Again my hypocricy: I don't consider Gancwajch's bandits, (acting out of self interest) on the same plane as Jews who escaped the Ghetto (acting out of self interest) and hid among the Poles. Now, you would. Even further. You would berate the latter for abandoning their fellow Jews. Later on during the deportations, the Jews in the Ghetto killed many of the 13, but I have never read anything that Jews were killed by Jews for hiding on the aryan side. Apparently, they also differentiated between these two acts of self interest.

Must work now, or I will lose my cushy job;)

History / What was Polands greatest historical moment? [24]

Elssha, for you.

• 
  Husar
  

History / Col.Jozef Swiatlo-Secret agent, torturer, CIA-collaborator to be tried? [145]

This does not fit with the eternal victim lore.

Neither does this:

"It is a historical fact - but not widely known - that a organization called Zagiew (or The Torch) existed in the Warsaw getto. Zagiew were organized and sponsored by the Gestapo, and consisted of jews.[...]"

A long thread but worth the read.

forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=144090&start=0

History / Col.Jozef Swiatlo-Secret agent, torturer, CIA-collaborator to be tried? [145]

LOL, Harry. Is this your attempt to make more excellent points?


Using your twisted logic you adandoned your country for a better life in Poland and must not like your country, which is ...?


Who is we?

And no, you moved to Poland because you couldn't get a job in your own.

So I wasn't a liar after all. Thanks for admitting you were wrong; it takes a man to do that.


Have you seen "Opór"(Defiance)? Is that about Poles or Jews?


When your arguments are weak, call someone an anti-semite. Pathetic, really.


The whole wide world? I didn't know that??!!


Why don't you ask those "Poles" in Israel. LOL

History / Col.Jozef Swiatlo-Secret agent, torturer, CIA-collaborator to be tried? [145]


Peter, do we know each other from AHF?

In the immediate post war era Jews constituted about 1% of the population. It is significant that they staffed the key positions in the Stalinist terror machine. The information I gave comes from IPN. Below are links to the documents which are in Polish, but if you want I can translate parts of them. Here is the relevant wiki entry which is based on primary sources:


pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C5%BBydzi_a_komunizm

This comes from IPN Bulletin from November 2005.

ipn.gov.pl/portal/pl/24/1364/nr_112005.html

The Bulletin is in PDF(see p.42)

History / Col.Jozef Swiatlo-Secret agent, torturer, CIA-collaborator to be tried? [145]

Good points for marxists or foreigners who read about communism on wikipedia.

History / Col.Jozef Swiatlo-Secret agent, torturer, CIA-collaborator to be tried? [145]


But it would have been an interesting option for you, depending on the situation on the ground(your words), hon.

The rest of your post is Beavis&Butthead quality. Try again.

History / Col.Jozef Swiatlo-Secret agent, torturer, CIA-collaborator to be tried? [145]


What you have shown is your poor comprehension skills and your inability to focus. I will post it again for you, but it is getting tedious.



How old are you? You are wasting my time.


I really shouldn't but I will for the benefit of others.


If you want to talk about Jedwabne, start a thread and flag me to it.

If you think Światło got his job in State Security because he was a Pole, consider this. A huge percentage of communist "security" at upper levels, were the Holocaust survivors-Jews. Being a Pole was a disadvantage at that time. They promptly got to the business of murdering AK, NSZ Polish soldiers. His boss was Fejgin-a Jew. Their boss was Berman-a Jew. Not Martians - Jews.


What would have happend to him? Do tell.


No, they would have taken his dreidel away from him and schlapped him on the head.

History / Col.Jozef Swiatlo-Secret agent, torturer, CIA-collaborator to be tried? [145]

Oh yeah, Peter, Harry is famous on this board for excellent comments.

He's called me a liar three times so far on this thread, and I'll give him a chance to show my lies or retract it.

Tapping my toes, Harry.

Must work now.

History / Col.Jozef Swiatlo-Secret agent, torturer, CIA-collaborator to be tried? [145]

People who didn't join have a right to be proud and millions of Polish emigrants who sent money back to the country and lobbied western governments to put pressure on the communists would object to the point you are making.


I think "Trybuna Ludu"(People's Tribune) was preferred. Even when you got hold of some "good stuff" you had to be really macho to use it. :)

History / Col.Jozef Swiatlo-Secret agent, torturer, CIA-collaborator to be tried? [145]

sjam,

You misunderstood my post. I said you make excuses for communists who bettered their lot just like I did. Some people joined NKVD; some emigrated. It is obscene to equate the two as a means to improve ones life on the moral level.

LOL, I once met someone who had a collection of soft toilet paper sheets. How silly that must sound to young people now.


I love when foreigners try to give me a lesson on Polish history.


You should read the posts carefully. Yelling, liar, liar, pants on fire will not help your acne problem.



Welcome to Poland, foreigner. Will you stay long or will you go back to look after the interests of your own country, hero?


You really have no clue, do you?

History / Col.Jozef Swiatlo-Secret agent, torturer, CIA-collaborator to be tried? [145]

Not once has anyone in my presence equated joining the communist party with emigration. Most likely because I don't know anyone who was in the Party.


You don't have to figure out anything; you just have to look up the statistics. I'll help you. The Party you were in was called PZPR.

One more point. There were many reasons Poles didn't emigrate. The most common was the inability to do so. The last, and I mean the last, was to stay and fight communism.

History / Col.Jozef Swiatlo-Secret agent, torturer, CIA-collaborator to be tried? [145]


Chosing a better life in another country and joining the enemy is an equal act of self interest to you. It is not. The highest percentage of Party membership never even reached 8% of the population. Do you think the other 92% didn't want to better their lot? Yet, they didn't join. Also, people were not fighting to overthrow communism. They were fighting for better conditions, independent trade unions, etc. Communism collapsed.

I have every right to berate Soviet collaborators.


When it's Jedwabne they are called Jews; when it's a criminal like Światło, he is a Pole, at least that's what you called him. There were and are plenty of fine Polish Jews though.


But you seem so understanding of those NKVD and UB beasts who tortured your friends. After all they made a choice to better their life just like Jola-the emigrant.

Let me give you a hypothetical choice and I count on an honest answer.

You are living in communist Poland. You can't even buy toilet paper.

a) you emigrate when you have a chance
b) you stay, but you don't join the party
c) you join the communist party and have all the toilet paper you want.

History / germany prepares for invasion of Poland [43]

If you mean during the German invasion, then yes. The Soviet ambassador left Poland on 12 September 1939 in preparation of the Soviet invasion. On 17 September, USSR passed a note(not accepted) stating the ceasing of the Polish state.

History / Col.Jozef Swiatlo-Secret agent, torturer, CIA-collaborator to be tried? [145]


I didn't join the enemy, I didn't snitch on people, I left for a better life without hurting anybody. If you don't understand what a communist regime was like, then do some research.


Hate to burst your bubble, but most people didn't fight the system.


For starters, Swiatło wasn't a Pole, he was a Jew. Using your thinking we should be grateful for von dem Bach since he testified in Nuremberg.

The only thing that softened the regime in the mid 1950s was the death of Stalin. Nothing else.


You mean those selfish people who fled communism? The communists, who you seem to be so understanding about, had a special treatment for those patriots if they could get their filthy hands on.

Harry,
It has been pointed out many times that you are a blooming idiot. Why do you come back for more?

History / Col.Jozef Swiatlo-Secret agent, torturer, CIA-collaborator to be tried? [145]

Right then. Joining the enemy and fleeing from the enemy is equally detestable. Which one would you choose? Which choice would allow you to have a clear concience, provided you had a consience to start with?

History / Col.Jozef Swiatlo-Secret agent, torturer, CIA-collaborator to be tried? [145]

Emigrating is selling out your country? To whom?

History / Col.Jozef Swiatlo-Secret agent, torturer, CIA-collaborator to be tried? [145]

Escaping communism and joining it not exactly the same thing, wouldn't you say?

History / Col.Jozef Swiatlo-Secret agent, torturer, CIA-collaborator to be tried? [145]

A personal point. My late parents didn't join the Party although that would have made their life much easier. They were encouraged to do so, but not forced. Later, when we emigrated to the West, I would have never been able to obtain the necessary security clearances for my jobs had they been communists.

And you're right, there were many who joined just to play the game; no one had thought that communism would end. It's interesting that the ones who were part of the system did so much better in free Poland.