History / General Stanisław Sosabowski and the 1st Polish Parachute Brigade in Arnhem. [11]


The Poles are generally over the river in Driel,away from the areas of the most hellish fighting,the so called hexenkessel of Oosterbeek and the western suburbs of Arnhem. Some polish troops did manage to get where they were meant to be,ie linked with the bulk of 1st airborne and did take part in the heroic defence of oosterbbek and the bridgehead accross the rhine and so you will occasionally see one or two veterns in the larger parades. The other reason would just be down to numbers. The Polish contribution ,on the ground,was less than a Brigade in size,a matter of hundreds of men rather than the thousands that were in the Full British Division so of course there will be less Polish veterns visable,but they are there if you look. I know here in Yorkshire there are,or were,many polish veterns of the battle,many of whom I was lucky enough to know as I grew up and know for a fact that anyone who studies the battle,or has a vague interest in it knows full well the fine contribution made by the 1stpipb.

History / Poland war propaganda poster - can anyone explain this picture? [292]


Bull sh it...Transported to Canada along with the UKs Gold reserve. Your official government in Excile then decided to spend it all on fighting the war,just as our government had to do with our gold reserve...

UK, Ireland / British news: The Poles might be leaving but the prejudice remains [52]


So your happy to be just as bad as them,but just not english?? Hypocrite.


Quite right love. Im Scottish but have lived in england most of my life and speak with a broad yorkshire accent so always "pass" as english and as such have never heard the level of anti scots sentiment that I hear re the english when north of the border. Sorry,but when I hear scots moaning about the english it just sounds like chippy,little man syndrome.....

So,in short,Im Yorkshire first,Scots second and also British ta very much,and all you deluded wanna be 45 ers just go and greet over the final scene of kidnapped and leave the rest of us in peace in our United Kingdom.

History / Another WWII thread. [69]


That seems like rather a qualification for engaging in these pointless threads reading the above posts........

History / Poland: dont blame us its the Germans. [174]

and the Von Trapps!! The biggest crime against humanity of the century.

Life / Wonderful Poland.......but the attitude of Polish people [150]

The best people for suspions are the Russians,its so funny,when ever I try out my (bad)russian on one the reaction is always "why do you want to learn Russian?" from younger people it seems just like,why bother?From older people it always seems like they are suspisious of a forgienr learning their language :)

Life / Wonderful Poland.......but the attitude of Polish people [150]

Aye,but same could be said of any country,just ask the little boy who got clobbered by the ned in Glasgow for wearing an england top.

I say disinterest because compared to europe where people seem interested in where you come from and in some off the beaten tracks places seem genuinly pleased that some ones bothered to visit their neck of the woods .

Over here its mostly,Your from Germany,Poland,USA,yeah,why you bothered coming here then? :)

Life / Wonderful Poland.......but the attitude of Polish people [150]


I think its more disinterest,to be fair to my neighbours ...

History / World War II - a tragic story for Poland and the World [489]


sorry,dont you mean days?
I suppose its Britains fault that Poland is largly very flat and difficult to defend,especially against embryonic blitzkrieg tactics. The time it would have taken for our troopships,which didnt exist untill the navy and merchant navy took over peace time liners,to steam to the baltic,if they didnt all get sunk by the german defenses around denmark and north germany,would have been about the time when Warsaw was surrendering,at best,when the defenders at westerplatte surrendered.

Mind you,this is all supposing Britian had such a fully euipped force to send at that time....remember,this is pre Commando or SAS days,we didnt even have Para's untill after the fall of Crete, so just what do you think could have been done? An assualt on a German occupied harbour? "We" tried that in 1942 and hundreds of canadians died.....

History / World War II - a tragic story for Poland and the World [489]


And thats the crux,sorry,it just wasnt in Britains power to do more at that time.
Just look at the figures for our armed forces at the time,or the fact that apart from a few things like bren gun carriers our army was almost identical to how it had been in 1918,the vickers tanks in Poland were as good as if not better than most of the british tanks of the time.

News / THOUSANDS OF YOUNG ISRAELIS FLOODING POLAND [93]


Please,thats what I like,to find all perspectives to try to reach an understanding. I do feel slightly guilty for posting what I did incase it just contributes to perpetuating myths and rumours,but unfortunatly it was something I witnessed with my own eyes and felt reather more disapointed than angry. I understand that they are young and that this must be a hugely emotional experiance for many of them,and I also understand the idea of sticking up 2 fingers to the world and making a proud statement with the Flag. Just not in such a place,please remember it is not a soley Jewish place of pilgramage,I know you will know this as every year the commemerations feature Jewish,Polish catholic,Roma and other speakers/survivors,so I feel this should be a place for solemm reflection,not Patriotism. Drape the flags everywhere else if you wish,as flags go its one of the more attractive after all :)


I sort of agree,but again,ALL the camps in that place,in fact almost all the camps in the german sphere of influence were not only exclusivly places of murdered Jewish people,they are tragedys for the whole world,not one part,however the percentages play out,to claim overlordship to the suffering.

let me just point out this comes from someone who,as Ive said else where on here ,Ive probably been to more than the avarage amount of places connected to the holocausts various strands than the avarage "christian" Briton,and on my own ,not as part of some morning day trip before a jolly to the salt mines...Im also going to play the old,some of my best friends are____card,the difference here being that it rarely comes up,peoples faith seems less relevant here


Yes,I know that and so did he,but,he isnt "obviously " hindu,no turban or anything ,just "british asian" looking. Who knows where the kids came from,who am I to judge if they were say from Sderot or someplace,in the 80s early 90s when I was their age the sound of a northern irish accent in a pub could cause a little unease.....


I will pull you up on this one,if you dont mind. How do you know what "my" kids were going through(and I sound soppy here but I do believe kids are not mine or yours but "ours" to guide and look out for.) many in my part of the UK are of Polish heratage,many indead lost relatives in those camps or to death squads,Im not one to believe that the act of shooting someone in the back of the neck or letting them burn in a barn is any more or less abhorent depending on who the victims ancestors were. We also had a Jewish lady as amuture student on one of the trips,so,is her British Jewishness less valid than "your" Israeli Jewishness?

But again,maybe Im an idealist,but I sincerely feel that a tragedy and a crime against innocents is a terrible thing for anyone to try to understand, I feel no more pain for the suffering my ancestors felt in either the Highland clearances after the 45 on one side(where families were ethnically cleansed and often burned in their farms) or for my Irish ancestors in the potatoe famine than I do for the suffering of the jewish people in the last war or the innocent german children killed in the RAFs firebombing raids.It all sickens me to the same mindnumbing level.

Life / Wonderful Poland.......but the attitude of Polish people [150]


I can only speak for my own small market town with authority .
Its in an area where a lot of coal mines used to be,though you wouldnt know it by the countryside now thank god,so from the turn of the last century "outsiders" made there way here,including some Poles even then. After the war a lot of Poles and Ukrainians ended up around here too(and no,no one remembers any friction between these 2 groups ,despite the obvious if you think about it reasons there might have been,put it this was,Britain secretly kept a division of former Ukranian SS here after the war"just in case"...) so in that way people were used to the idea of outsiders from an early start.

Add to that the amount of Scots and Irish in the area and you havnt got a "purely" english area anyway.
Also,being out of the way and not part of a big city during the 50 to 70s it didnt really attract any "ethnic minorities",in my school there was one black girl and one Sihk lad, and of course in the 80s,when I was at school,NO ONE was moving to mining communities in yorkshire :) So theres only really been a slow steady in comming of "outsiders" here and I think that always helps,its in areas where the fabric of the old sociaty is torn out in one or two years by sudden mass imigration that the problems tend to arise,unfortunatly lately thats been Polish people,its not been to bad here for cases of irational dislike but there have been the usuall grumbles,in an area where jobs are scarce to find dozens of prime jobs being advertised as requiring Polish speakers doesnt help matters :)

But all in all, I cant stress how much it is just a case of "strangers" and not really where they come from or what colour their skin is that can be obsereved around here. Lieke someone earlier said,it may take longer in the country but once people like you they show it and you know its genuine because we are never afraid to show if we dislike someone,unlike in cities where a lot of people show a false face just for political corecctness.

History / World War II - a tragic story for Poland and the World [489]


I do see your point,I was kind of surprised when I first came across Polish people reenacting Germans and even Russians,given the history between these nations and the amount the Poles suffered under both regimes,but,it is after all history now.We are all Europeans/Humans so its rare for politics to enter into it.

I wont drone on but I speak from the experiance of having been a reenactor(portraying at different times British(my nationality) US,Polish,Russian and I even for one event bulked out the numbers in a German group for a display) I can confidently say that 99% of people do it not for political reasons but more due to an interest in history and to keep the memory of the veterens alive through educational work.

The BBC tried to expose some "secret Nazis" within British reenactment groups who portray Germans,in the end they found a few Dutch thugs who happened to be in the same beer tent and a couple of drunk idiots who made off colour remarks about imigrents that although unpleasant were no worse than can be heard in any pub or bar in any country in europe.

and again,sorry for lenght of this post,but,I meant to add this last night but got distracted by the need for sleep :)


I think it sums up my supposition about the british attitude to germany(beyond the immature "hun bashing," 2 world wars and one world cup chanting nonsense).

I sort of get the feeling that any atempts at Polish German(DDR) reconciliation were tainted by being under an umbrela of imposed "Fraternal Brotherhood". I may be wrong,Id be interested to hear what the case was though.

While here in britain,my generation Im speaking for were brought up on things like the Paul Mcartney song,and films where "Good Germans" were pretty common place,even the "heros" of the film.

Unlike your side of the iron curtain this didnt seem like any political imposition or manipulation,trying to show "our" germany(FDR) but in a way what we sort of guessed from direct links with veterns who always made the destinction between nazis and germans.

"Our" Germans,were also,frankly,our first line of defense against the Soviet steam roller too,its amazing how many transgresions can be conveniently overlooked when you need all the freinds you can get isnt it?

Theres also the fact that britain,untill the 1980s had a huge army presence in West Germany,entire generations of british families grew up in germany in the 50s to 90s and that seeps through to the general population,suddenly germans arnt "beastly huns" anymore but seen for what they are,the usual mix of good, bad and ugly and certainly our generation has nothing to do and no guilt for the deeds or missdeeds of our Grandparents generation.

I know one thing,its got nothing to do with anything silly like "shared Nordic ancestry" or some "ingrained "love of empire building.

One thing that a lot of people find strange is a real fascination for all things nazi and hitler in the UK. I cant 100% explain this as an innocent curriosity in the dark and macabre,like some people devour every new book about Jack the Ripper or serial killers.Most of the time it is,but,we do,to our shame,like every nation in europe have within our borders certain brain dead cretins who forget our country lost 400.00 people thanks to the flag they seem drawn to. But theres also the curiosity with "the other", just like during the cold war there was a lot of interest in all things "Russian" here,the Red Army Orchestra seems the most popular ever LP if you look in second hand record shops :), from an attempt to figure out how "they" thought,and what the motivation was the same was true for nazi germany.

I mentioned earlier that Ive drunk a pint with an old wSS veteren,he's not the only german veteren Ive met who made their home in the UK after the war(he was ,by his unit not his actions the most "extreme" example),lots of germans did,and to my generation at least these old boys were just as "exotic" as the old Polish veterens or our Grandfathers occasional wartime tales. They tended to be the Grandad of a mate or someone who drank in the local pub(often alongside polish and british veterens,I'll always remember the 3 old lads arguing about Arnhem(the german hadnt been there,he was in the navy I think) but even after getting really worked up they all bought each other drinks and went on to cracking really rude jokes :) I dont imagine much of this went on in Poland so maybe it just seeps in that the majority of Germans are just as human as we are and dont really harbour any serious dreams of global domination. What will be nice though is when German students learn that they dont all have to cross the channel to the UK wearing "nicht gegen recht" (sp) with crossed out swastica symbols on T shirts to show they are not nazis:),Besides,to most brits the writing may as well be swahili and it just looks like a lot of German kids wearing swastika T shirts....:)

History / World War II - a tragic story for Poland and the World [489]

Maybe your right there,youve seen my attempts at German,I wouldnt stand much chance in the post cup final new member state of the greater german reich.....mind you,you or the english?? ;)( he says having never suffered "english oppresion" and only having spent about 3 years in total in Scotland,including holidays...)

History / World War II - a tragic story for Poland and the World [489]

Ok,heres one. My best mates auld regiment and one an uncle fought in at Arnhem.
enjoy,

youtube.com/watch?v=g6oNjz38v20&feature=related

As a Border regiment only the Pipers were Kilts,the rest were Tarten Trews.

at about 3min 48 it gets really good,I promise :)

and,its a bit cheesy,but I loved this as a kid,and it kind of sums up where Im coming from .Lets just sort things out with a game of footie instead of using each other as target practice evry few decades.

History / World War II - a tragic story for Poland and the World [489]


Thats the difference really though. Not only the fact that "our war" was somehow more distant and less personal due to not being under occupation(im sure those who lost loved ones saw it as personal but for the rest,probably not so much).

I used to doubt sometimes the old stories Id read of say ,the war in the Western desert ,and the mutual respect and comparative lack of sensless barbarity by all sides in that theatre. But,Ive met so many veterns who confirm this that I guess it must have been true to a point.

Its not just that though,in our mutual history,in the grand scheme of things the 2 wars between our countries were an abhoration,an unexpected blip in an untill then fairly warm relationship between Britain and the various german states.Its no secret our present royal family are german either,though I wont hold that against you BB.

Look at the Napolionic war,while the Duchy of Warsaw couldnt wait to sign up to the Grande Armee Prussian troops effectivly saved the Day for the red coats at waterloo.

I guess if Britain had also shared a land border with germany my out look and my fellow countrymens outlook(as much as one person can have the audacity to speak for a nation) would probably be different,but,thats the way the cookie crumbled.

BTW,just for balance,there are plenty of British veterens who absoloutly hated with a vengence the nazis,and with that german troops in general for gooing along with them. Although war crimes were much rarer on the western fronts they did happen,even in the battle for france in 1940,POWs grenaded in barns by wSS troops and such like.Mind you,the other pov is one of the British VC winners from D Day felt no shame or hesitation in confessing to "mowing down countless surrendering jerries" with his sten gun,and then carving notches in the stock....

History / World War II - a tragic story for Poland and the World [489]

Im probably commiting a terrable faux pas on PF here but
This is a "nice" video montage. "I had a comrade". Made as a tribute to the fallen on all sides.
Like the topic says,World War II - a tragic story for Poland and the World .IMHO its about time we saw that for what it really means and include the 7million figure too.A few mad men, a terrable economic situation around the world and millions lose their lives.

History / World War II - a tragic story for Poland and the World [489]

I cant believe these pages are blocked in germany BB.
Sure theres a few silly messages in some of the comments pages "3 weeks ago. Happy B'Day mein Fuhrer...." but mostly its just compilation videos made by men with too much time on there hands of footage of various fronts with old marching songs in the background. This is history,maybe with a touch of propaganda but,why deny it,it happened.

Like I said,just watch cross of iron,atleast youve got a good film after the music....... "you go,with that,foul smelling one." " I keep dirty after stalingrad,dirt and body oils combine to keep you vaterproof..."

History / World War II - a tragic story for Poland and the World [489]

Nope,a bunch of poor sods ,stubblehoppers, on der OstFront. With Good Comrade being sung in the background. Sort of like the opening titles of Cross of Iron...without Senta Berger getting her bum out :(

History / Poles and Falaise pocket - WWII [90]


there isnt much difference...the one I would pick up on is the straffing civilians bit.From what height do you think these Pilots started their attack run? And how many of these colums of civilians were also full of military convoys. Not saying its right,but there is a difference between knowingly pulling the trigger on an innocent civilian whos last breath you can hear to straffing unclear targets of oppertunity.

For moral equivelence maybe lets say; It was no more abhorent for goering to bomb london than harris bombing hamburg. the intent was identical,murder of civilian populations.


hear hear...or is it here here? If its murder its murder.

History / World War II - a tragic story for Poland and the World [489]


Dont worry,this was cleared up on the last page :)
Sorry,I was mostly playing Devils Advocate/provocauter of debate.....hindsight of history shows this would probably have been a futile gesture anyway . It was however a very common view held in France and Britain at this time(39),by Polititions and lay people alike, why shouldnt the germans get back some of the lands lost at versaille,a large percentage of the population were "german" anyway. This feeling changed though,not with the invasion,or even the declarations of war 2 days later. Both our nations,France and Britain had suffered horrendous casualties in WW1 and no one was keen to go to war for a distant,almost alien land.No,feelings changed with the newsreel footage of the nazi bombing of Warsaw,and generaly,from that time on people had an idea of just what they were fighting.

History / World War II - a tragic story for Poland and the World [489]

Cant we all just join in and sing a verse or two of Lili marlene?
Come on,i'll get the ball rolling

Underneath the lamp light
by the barrack gate...
come on BB
unter dem summat summat
ich der kasserne wotsit
Soly
Pod jasnosummatski
w fortski brama
anyone?

Life / Wonderful Poland.......but the attitude of Polish people [150]

you can,distract him with a pretty ewe;)

History / World War II - a tragic story for Poland and the World [489]

Ok,I'll leave the colonials alone
Joins fraternal hug.

"oi,hands off my arse,its not true what all you continentals think about englishmen,well,the ones that didnt go to eton anyway."

History / World War II - a tragic story for Poland and the World [489]

Great,can I go back to cricket and warm beer now?
leaves me free to go suppres a few pesky colonials :)

Life / Wonderful Poland.......but the attitude of Polish people [150]


North of yours,deep in the heart of Yorkshire, maybe you have more light polution,or are in a "townys" idea of the country side,ie ,no macdonalds it must be a village:)

Im sorry,I dont recognise your view of the countryside as rascist. Its no more rascist here than anywhere,sure a few old bigots dotted around ,like everywhere. Then again,if you are in Derbyshire I do suspect you may be right, or at least unfortunate to have met a few ignorent peasants,Ive met some nasty little worms in some places there that are openly rascist from the start but Ive also travelled extensivly around the country in the company of people of all colours and in my opinion small towns and villages tend to have less hostility or suspision against people due to skin colour or passport colour,and maybe just a little ingrained suspsion of "strangers/outsiders" in general..

History / World War II - a tragic story for Poland and the World [489]

Dons liberal hippy hat
Wouldnt it be better to spare a moment to consider the famous ,gifted people who the world never got the chance to know thanks to the horrors and losses of the war for all nations?

Life / Wonderful Poland.......but the attitude of Polish people [150]


Shut up! Im a country boy,I can see nothing but miles of open fields from where I sit now(or would if it wasnt night ;)) and your talking out your bum chum.

History / Poles and Falaise pocket - WWII [90]

I wouldnt go to deep into this BB, Ive got photos of Lufftwaffe guys neckshooting civilians( and I know what a fleigerbluse looks like even if my spelling might be dodgy).

But,thats not the point,making up lies about what happened only fuels the idiots who believed nothing happened. Tell the truth or stay quiet.Dont you realise that the seeds of holocaust denial were sown when in the post war period the "real" figure for jewish deaths went from 3 million killed in auschwitz alone and atleast another 6 million killed elswhere...this was FAcT for years, now a figure of 6 million has been settled on,but only since the 70s,acuratte reasearch now puts the figure at probably 5.2-5.4 million totall.....this seems a "sensable "figure,but the earlier lies were enough for some loonies to latch onto and say "see,they were lying all along".

History / World War II - a tragic story for Poland and the World [489]


Die blechten wottsit,great film...sorry BB but I was chearing the Polish guys in the Post office when I saw this.....I could lie and say read this but I didnt get past the whole hiding under skirts scene when I last picked it up :)

Wasnt Danzig one of the old Teutonic strongholds? Im sure I read somewhere of british knights heading there as part of a papal approved crusade in the 12th C....