Life / Indian coming to Poland need details please [13]


hello tornado - just wondering why you think the Irish are so backward?

Life / Homosexuals in Poland / Hands off (PETITION) [797]


They're all in the Vatican

News / English vs. Polish hostility [323]

I have to say that I have noticed that very strange regard that many Poles have for Maggie Thatcher. Id like it if somebody could explain it to me because as an Irishman, I just dont get it!! Outside of the south of England she was one of the most hated people these two islands ever produced. She destroyed the North of England, Wales and Scotland economically. They only got over the iron lady's reign of terror in the past few years. She also prolonged the war in the North of Ireland by at least a decade through her murderous policies of state sponsored terrorism. I couldnt believe it when I started getting lectures from Polish friends of mine who seem to think she's the greatest thing since sliced bread! I was in Poland for Christmas last year and when her name came up at the dinner table and when I expressed a natural dislike of the woman, a couple of my girlfriends relatives nearly choked on their beetroot soup! Please explain

UK, Ireland / Polish as Irelands Third Offical language? [123]

As Truth and others have pointed out there is no mandate for such a constitutional change which would be required in order to make Polish an official language. In order for the constitution to be changed a referendum would have to be held and thats not going to happen. I think the journalist who proposed this is more interested in getting his and his newspapers name in the spotlight with a view to boosting his circulation.

Just regarding some of the other points raised here, I would agree that the Irish economy is now faltering and following Tusks victory I would guess that 2009 will be the year that many Poles begin to head home. The construction industry, which has been the engine of our economic growth, is in a state of near collapse as we are now in the throes of a property crash. Things are going to get a lot worse before they begin to get better and unemployment is likely to rise steeply next year. It is likely that Ireland will have a higher level of unemployent than Poland by 2009.

I would also disagree with suggestions that Poles are somehow badly treated in Ireland. Maybe its different in England but Poles are the employees of choice for many business people here now. My girlfriend is Polish and she has told me many times that her Irish boss wont employ working class Irish girls as he sees them as less trustworthy and of lower calibre than Polish. When they come into the shop to enquire about work their CVs invariably end up in the bin. Also, in the part of Dublin where I live, the drug addicts and homeless people on the streets are exclusively Irish while the Poles and other foreigners go about their daily business around them. Im sure that there have probably been some instances where Poles have got a rough time in work but for the most part I feel they are very well regarded here in Ireland.

As for Polish as an official language, Im afraid thats a non-runner.

Life / How much do you HATE POLISH PEOPLE and POLAND [1260]

This Looy guy is why British people get a bad name abroad. He is representative of a vocal minority but remember it is a minority. Most British people dont share this idiots views and are mainly very fair and decent people. As for his claims to have served as a soldier in the British Army in Armagh, if it is true, it means that he basically spent his tour of duty hiding in the base at Crossmaglen. During thirty years of the trouble in Ireland, the British army never travelled into Armagh over land, despite the fact that it is supposed to be part of the United Kingdom. They went in and out of their base in Armagh by helicopter and never set foot outside of the barracks for fear of being killed. It was the most dangerous posting a British soldier could get at that time, before they got involved in Iraq. Just to be clear that Im not condoning the killing of soldiers but when this idiot claims he walks the streets at night in a group attacking innocent people, it should be shown that these so-called hard men arent so hard when they are faced with people who fight back.

News / Is the E.U. good for Poland?? [180]

Why would you feel ashamed of your country because it has a lower GDP than other countries? I dont understand that comment to be honest. I've noticed that many Polish people place a very high emphasis on money and prestige but that is a little extreme no? IMO Poland is doing very well. Unemployment is decreasing on a monthly basis and in time there will be more prosperity. Two of my Polish friends, both engineers, are returning to Poland after Christmas because they say that it is now easier to get work in Poland than in Ireland. Unemployment is beginning to rise here and its possible that we will see a sharp economic downturn. It wouldnt make me feel ashamed to be Irish though.

Real Estate / Poland property boom over???? [54]

People have begun to realise that there has been a wordlwide bubble in the property sector over the past 7 or 8 years. The market has crashed in the USA. It is in the process of crashing in Spain, Ireland and UK, all places which have seen the largest increases in prices during that period. If the Polish market is reliant on foreign investors from these countries then it will be in trouble very soon. Id like to know what percentage of the market they have made up. If the market is being propped up by Poles working in Ireland, it should be remembered that its quite likely that many will lose their jobs in the next 12 months, especially if they work in jobs related to the construction industry, which has gone off the edge of a cliff in Ireland. Figures out yesterday show that 60% less new houses were begun in December 2007 than December 2006. Thats a massive decrease in activity and unemployment will be the result. If domestic Polish salaries are not high enough to sustain the prices in Poland, then what you have is a speculatice bubble similar to the other countries I have mentioned and the market will crash. Id be interested to know whether people believe that Polsih salaries are growing at a level which could sustain the prices.

People should also remember that there is currently a crisis in the global banking system, a credit crunch as it is referred to. The result of it is that the Banks who were throwing cheap money at people until recently will not now lend people the money required to keep the prices high. Prices must come down or else there will be no activity in the market. I belive that Polish banks have been stricter in their lending procedures than their Irish, Spanish or British counterparts but Id be interested to hear whether people here are in agreement with that.

Any thoughts on what Ive posted??

Real Estate / Poland property boom over???? [54]


Good point Grzegorz. My girlfriends parents from Poznan are in that category. However, as you then said


That is why I would worry about prices retaining their values at current levels. I believe a harsh recession is coming for the countries which I mentioned in my first post. These are some of the countries to which Poles have emigrated most. This will probably affect the amount of money coming back to Poland. The question I am asking is whether, if that money dries up, the domestic Polish market can sustain prices, some of which are high even by western european levels. Is salary growth of ten per cent sufficient to sustain these prices? Im hoping it can but Im no expert on Polish economic affairs.


Thanks for the response Falster. I hope your right. Personally, Im not so sure that is the case as I have a feeling that there is a serious systemic problem in the banking system right throughout the capitalist world and it is going to get a lot worse before it bets better. Deutsche Bank were in trouble ths year. Im also thinking about Northern Rock, BNP Paribas, Bear Stearns etc. Without wanting to sound too alarmist I know a guy who wroks as a trader who told me that a number of people at his company dumped their entire portfolios just before Christmas. They are convinced that we are all sailing into a shitstorm. In the US, some respected commentators are likening the current problems to what happened in 1929 just before the crash and great depression. Im very worried about the whole thing, especially as my Polish girlfriend recently bought an apt in Poznan (against my advice).

As for Ireland, there is still demand in the comercial construction sector but it is not going to last. Housing is down by unprecedented levels and figures now show that rents have begun to decrease. Your Cork office might be working more on the commercial sector - just a guess - but we in Ireland are about to pay the price for concentrating too much resources in one sector (construction), which along with related industries accounts for 20 to 25% of our economy. Even Germany post-1989 wasnt at that levels and you know better than me what happened next.

Still, as somebody once said its good to live in interesting times...

UK, Ireland / Poles in Ireland, are they second class citizens? [90]

why are all the threads on this forum which are about Ireland hijacked by anti-immigration espousing British people? Ireland is not part of Britain. It has a different history and culture and the issue of immigration is seen in a different light here to in the UK. Most of us have been immigrants ourselves and our views are very often shaped by this fact. As a teenager I spent time cleaning toilets in the USA amongst other things so I feel Im qualified to comment in that regard.

As for the original post I would say that there is not much discrimination against Poles in Ireland. In fact Id even say that Poles are favoured over others in certain sectors, especially service jobs where employers see them as a better option than other people, including Irish. Is that a form of exploitation? Depends on your perspective but in my experience, Poles have done very well here and generally live in the more upmarket parts of the cities and towns, very often in plush new apartment blocks or housing estates. Granted, they are usually renting but its a far cry from the idea of ghettos and whatever other stories come from the UK. The reason for this is more to do with the property bubble which we have experienced which has been fuelled by speculators buying apartmenst and renting them out to immigrants who are very often employed in building more apartmenst to rent out to more immigrants. It sounds ridiculous but thats the reality. Having said that, it seems to be drawing to an end now as our economy begins to slide into recession and its possible that Irish builders could end up working in Warsaw in a few years time if Poland keeps growing as it has been doing.

Now it would be interesting to hear peoples views should that happen!

Real Estate / Poland property boom over???? [54]

Well thats positive. I hope you're right.

Life / How much do you HATE POLISH PEOPLE and POLAND [1260]


Theres a long history of Irish/Polish tension in Pennsylvania. It goes back to the 1880s and the heyday of the Molly Maguires (an Irish secret society) when both groups were competing for the same jobs in the mines. Look it up on the internet if you're interested.

Just goes to show that stupidity has been around for a long time and will probably be with us long into the future. Do contributors here have nothing better to do than sit around slagging each other off? Its tiresome. In my experience the people I've met who "hate" anyone else based on their nationality, religion or race have been people with psychological problems or feelings of inadequacy of some sort.

News / Is the E.U. good for Poland?? [180]

Neither does the capitalist free market have any borders. I think what many Poles dont realise is that if you open up to market capitalism you must accept (what some would see as) its negatives as well as its positives. Globalisation not only means the globalisation of the market place through the removal of tariffs and the advent of free trade, but it also requires the free movement of labour (and by effect culture) to satisfy the needs of the market.

Its an internationalised system with which you could draw many similarities with the communist ideal ie there are no countries, just "the market". I dont think many Poles and others from the old communist bloc really realise this.

News / Is the E.U. good for Poland?? [180]

Perhaps its classical definition would be "anarcho-capitalism" but many of us who have lived all our lives in the west can see that that is what the current form of western free-market capitalism is in reality. A constant undermining of the nation state has been taking place over the past few decades. There has been a constant move toward the privatisation of public services, the lowering of taxes (especially taxes on corporations), and a relaxation of regulation in the market place. All these changes are justified based on a belief that the "free market" will solve all problems.

A belief in the market as a mythical entity which will only find its equilibrium when all interference in it by Government is ended, has been adopted by many western leaders as their underlying ideology.

I would draw a comparison between those who believe blindly in the mythical free market and those who once believed blindly in the communist system. Of course, the fact that a refusal to regulate the financial markets properly is responsible for the USA now facing into its largest financial crisis since the Great depression is overlooked. Also, the fact that since the 1960s, the middle class, which has been the backbone of western society since the advent of the industrial revolution, has been decreasing in size, would suggest that free-market capitalism is slowly killing itself in its constant search for "growth".

Most Poles I know only compare free market capitalism with communism as if there are only two options available. Of course, when I point out these things to my Polish friends, they think I am espousing a return to communism (I am not). Life is not black and white. There are many grey areas.

IMO countries, such as Poland, which now have a chance to re-structure their economies and societies in a forward thinking and sustainable way, instead seem to want to follow western societies, especially the USA, down an unsustainable path based on nothing more than the search for debt induced quick money. The USA is bankrupt and the west in general is in decline.

News / Is the E.U. good for Poland?? [180]


While agreeing that socialism, by its nature, is naturally opposed to the concept of the nation state, I would say that global capitalism is also. The need to constantly search for growth means that any barriers to trade such as borders, tariffs etc are in opposition to the ideal of a free market. While the veneer of Statehood has been retained, more and more of the tools available to the democratically elected representatives of the population (ie the consituent parts of the State), which allow them provide for the best interests of their citizens have been stripped away. This has been done through blind adherence to the priciples of liberal free-market democracy and ties in with your next point -


I disagree with your above statement. I think it should be re-phrased to read that private business works better sometimes than state owned. While very often agreeing on the problems which we all face this is where most of my Polish friends and I diverge in opinion. I think it is due to the fact that their experience of State run companies comes from a non-functioning Polish communist system. The fact of the matter is that in the west a number of State owned companies have deteriorated drastically following privatisation. Here in ireland, I would point to Eircom, our telecoms provider as being one example. British Rail in the UK is another prime example of a disastrous switch to private enterprise. There are other examples also. So it is clear that some services are best provided by the State.

With regard to the EU, I would agree with you when you say that it is bureaucracy gone mad. It has far too much influence over peoples lives within the Member States and I would agree that its influence should be kerbed.

However, to say that it is a socialist entity is not correct IMO. Whilst it engages in forms of outward protectionsim, inwardly it is a free market enterprise. Also labels of political parties mean very little in Europe these days and it has been that way for many years. Parties may say they are socialist or whatever in their manifestos but once in power all pursue the same liberal free-market policies because to do otherwise would mean that they would have no chance of re-election. I would see Labour in England as a prime example. Socialist in name but free-market libertarians in practice.


With regard to the States they have massive systemic problems because they have allowed a credit bubble to develop in the belief that to do so was to encourage free enterprise and financial innovation. We see now that non-regulation of the mortgage sector in the USA has meant that when some poor person is given a mortgage they cant afford in Alabama it ends up collapsing banks in the city of London a la Northern Rock. The Fed, and Greenspan in particular, encouraged this process by lowering interest rates to previously unheard of levels to make money as cheap as possible so that people could keep consuming. In other words Americans have been buying things they dont need with money they dont own for about two decades now. The globalised free market which they espouse and have created, has encouraged their companies to go to cheaper countries to produce goods. In addition the Chinese,Indians and others produce most of the goods and services that the USA consumes. The fact that their dollar has been so strong has meant that this could continue but it could not go on forever. Now that the dollar is being destroyed by the Fed they will soon be unable to keep consuming and recession/depression is on the cards. The US to me, is a perfect example of why free-market capitalism is doomed to failure. Yes some people will get very rich but the rest of the people get gradually poorer and poorer and slide in to debt slavery. IMO it is a form of economic extremism and extremism is never good. But I think this is another example of me and a Pole agreeing on many of the problems but seeing totally different reasons and solutions!

I think the point I have tried to make a number of times with Polish friends of mine is that IMO because communism was a disaster Poles seem to want to go in the extreme opposite direction. I understand why and I think it is very a natural reaction. However, as you have pointed out, the west and USA in particular, are not great examples. However, Poland seems to want to follow them down the same path. We seem to be agreed that this may not be the best thing to do, especially at the moment.

Personally, having visited Scandinavia, I think there is a lot the rest of us could learn from those societies which seemed to me to have a good balance between personal freedoms and rights along with also having good social systems and public services.

Anway I've gone a bit off topic here. Suffice to say that I think it is better for Poland to be in the EU rather than outside it. My real problem would be more with the direction the EU is taking of late.

News / Is the E.U. good for Poland?? [180]


Americans own more "products" because they have borrowed more money. They have been on a binge for over twenty years now and have become so accustomed to this way of life that they have forgotten that eventually everybody has to pay back what they borrow. With the serious downturn in their economy many are finding that they are in real trouble. Look at this article from California about hundreds of people who have lost their homes and are now living in tented cities, similar to what you see in South America.

newsinfo.inquirer.net/breakingnews/world/view_article.php?article_id=108210

As for the point about the dollar, Arab oil has been priced in dollars. The Chinese have been buying dollars. All this has kept America afloat. Now that they are devaluing their dollar, do you think the Arabs and the Chinese will want to hold onto their dollars? I dont think so. Once they start to sell which they will soon have to do, American dollars will not be able to buy much. I think we are seeing the beginning of end of Empire, much like USSR in 1980s.

News / Is the E.U. good for Poland?? [180]


That is true. But that is also why in my opinion, they will very soon stop running anymore debts in dollars. There are rumours that the Chinese recently refused to buy anymore US backed Government bonds despite high level US officials having travelled there to try and convince them to do so. The Americans are running out of options. IMO oil will be valued in yuan within 10-15 years. Remember that for all but two of the centuries since the birth of Jesus Christ, the Chinese and Indian economies have been the largest in the world. Once they complete their current industrial revolutions it is quite likely that this will be the case again.

The European Central Bank has a mandate simply to keep inflation under control. They leave job creation ie growth, to the Governments. In the US the Fed has a dual mandate of dealing with inflation and attempting to stimulate growth. Remember also, that the Fed is a private institution as opposed to a State facility. Not many people actually realise this. Therefore, they have the interests of Wall Street at heart, not the citizens of the democracy which they are supposed to serve.Thats the difference.

Anyway, I fully support the ECB's position in not cutting interest rates and keeping its eye firmly on inflation. I agree with you that this policy does not stimulate massive growth but it means that most people (citizens of the European countries) have homes to live in and enough to eat. The policies of the Fed have enriched bankers and Wall Street traders at the expense of the ordinary people whose real (ie non debt-induced) income has been decreasing in that country for many years. They are reliant on debt to survive. Now that the banks can no longer provide them with the cheap credit they require this is the result

youtube.com/watch?v=jmeHiFZUWtE

and this is only the beginning...

Personally, as somebody who worked in America as a young man and who loves that country, I find it very sad to see what is happening to it. The elite have effectively used the savings of ordinary people to enrich themselves by inflating a massive credit bubble which is no different to a pyramid scheme. They have done this under the guise of liberal unregulated "free-market" economics. America now faces into a depression NOT a recession. There is a huge difference. The need for constant "growth" is at the heart of the problem as without "growth", the pyramid scheme economy cannot function.

News / Is the E.U. good for Poland?? [180]

Ok - I take your point about the rumours. Until they are substantiated they are of no real importance.


The point is that China is in the process of becoming the worlds leading economy. In my opinion, in another 10 or 15 years this will be widely acknowledged and the yuan will be the currency of choice, especially with regard to the pricing of oil. This will have further negative consequences for the American economy and wil devalue the dollar even further.


The American economy (even though Wall Street may see it differently) is totally dependent on consumer spending. A huge portion of this consuming is done on credit. Essentially, Americans have been buying things they dont need with money they dont own. Im sure you are aware of the credit crunch which is strangling the availability of such credit at the moment not just in America but worldwide. In such circumstances Americans can no longer afford to keep buying such items. If however, the Chinese and Indian economies continue to grow at current rates, they will have a much higher domestic market due to the higher levels of wealth in those countries and so will be les dependent on American consumers. The huge increases in the prices of commodities such as grain etc over the past couple of years is due to a movement away from the consumption of just rice in these countries. Basically Indians and especially Chinese are wealthier and are consuming more. The same happened in Europe and America in the last centuries.


Im not too sure I understand


The fact is that they cant. If we want to continue to live the way we live in Europe, we must find alternatives to competition on price in the manufacture of cheap goods. The Asians have a competitive advantage with which we cannot compete. I would not include American goods in that category. They are relatively cheap only because of the weak dollar. In reality, American corporations have exported most of their real jobs to cheaper economies.

IMO the only way to compete would be to invest in research and innovation. For example, what about alternative energy sources which could be harnessed to lessen our reliance on imported oil? Of course, the problem with that would be that the so called "free-market" advocates within the financial world would never allow it because they would stand to lose so much if the oil industry suffered any set back. Why do we not have electrically powered cars yet? Why do we not use the Atlantic Ocean, our greatest natural resource or wind power of which we have plenty, to creat alternatives to an oil dependency which just helps to enrich elites in Arabia and Wall Street?

The truth is that free market consumer capitalism cannot function if people are educated. Educated people will not feel the need to waste money on branded items they dont need. If people save money rather than spend or invest, "growth" cannot be achieved and the system collapses - as is happening in the financial world at the moment.


Inflation can destroy an economy and a country if left unchecked. One of the causes of Hitler rise to power was Weimar Germany's hyper-inflation induced collapse. Mugabe's Zimbabwe currently suffers from something similar. I think something similar may have happened post-communism in Russia and Eastern Europe but maybe you can educate me on that front. The point being that inflation inducing cheap money helps the stock market investors but hurts the ordinary people who can buy less with their dollar/euro/zloty. Yes it makes it easier for them to get loans but when uneducated people are provided with the opportunity for cheap and easy money the result is a foregone conclusion. Many seem not to be aware that some day they will have to pay it back.

You have also spoken about investment. Why would a company invest in a country with high inflation and by effect high costs ie wage inflation, house price inflation, food inflation etc etc ? Quite simply, they wont. Inflation is what causes high costs. Thats why they are leaving the west for cheaper economies. And that is why the Fed are responsible for killing the American economy. Not the Wall Street elitist economy but the real economy in the real world. And that is why I support the ECB stance because they are attempting to maintain some level of competitiveness in Europe.


Yes. You are right and I agree. However, my point was to draw a comparison between the living standards of the poorest of Europe, most of whom have home and food, with the plight of the Americans highlighted in the youtube link which I provided earlier. If that is what happens to ordinary working people while Wall Street Bankers make millions because of Fed policy, I will choose the ECB

News / Is the E.U. good for Poland?? [180]


Yes - it is already changing. Asian countries are developing very quickly and as a result, they are consuming more and more oil. This trend will continue over the next decade.


You are actually agreeing with me. Yes, the Yuan must eventually be allowed to take it real value. However, the Chinese will attempt to ensure that their economy is well developed before that happens. As they are massive consumers of US Government bonds (on which the American economy is overly reliant), an increase in the value of the Yuan would force a massive loss of income in the US with possibly terminal effects.

As you yourself say -


While I wouldnt couch it in those terms, I agree that the Chinese Government's ultimate motivation is not to engage in trade but to replace America as the worlds leading power. While I am not in favour of this I believe that they are closer to doing so than many ordinary people in the west realise.


I agree that spending money and consuming goods and services is good for the economy.

However, the point about current consumption levels in many western countries, and the USA in particular, is that the money used to consume these goods and services is borrowed. Therefore, it must be paid back. That means it is a false economy producing false wealth. A real economy is based on trade, and in particular, exporting more than you import. You then consume with the profits. America no longer makes a profit. Therefore it is living on borrowed time. Literally.


That is the definiton of the "free-market" ie free movement of goods and services across borders. Are you against the "free-market" and "competition" ??;)


You obviously know more about these innovations than me and I would like to hear about them because it is something which I am interested in. However, it does not mean that we should not attempt to use the resources which we have in Europe to increase efficiencies. As I said above alternative fuels would be a good start and would make European industry more competitive when it competes with oil based economies.


As a Pole (I presume you are Polish), I understand your sentiments with regard to any form of State interference in the economy given your country's history. However, we have a phrase in Ireland "you dont throw the baby out with the bathwater". In other words, because something was bad in general terms ie communism, it does not necessarily mean that the other extreme of the spectrum is good. Indoctrination exists in many forms and is not simply a tool of Governments. Much private sector advertising, for example, could be described as a form of indoctrination, especially when aimed at children. There is a whole industry devoted to that practice amongst "free-market" corporations, many of whom studied the methods of the greatest propagandists such as Stalin and Hitler in devising their own material.

My point would be that much of what passes for education and comment in the "free" world has become no more than a form of controlling propaganda in favour of what it (and it alone) calls "freedom". In other words, if you're idea of freedom is different, you are not free to live that way!

I would imagine that one of the reasons that most Poles are so anti State controlled enterprises was because communism was an unelected and unanswerable machine which did not allow the citizens of the country any say in its functions. Can you not see any similarity between that and providing unelected corporations and business leaders with the unregulated and unlimited right to control the trade and the provision of services in democratic countries? Under democracy Government are answerable to the people in the form of elections. Who are the "free-market" business advocates answerable to??

History / Polish Volunteers in the Spanish Civil War [140]

Anyone claiming Franco was a hero should speak to Spaniards who had to live under his regime. He was a murderer who seized power from a democratically elected Government through the use of foreign troops. The campaign he waged in North Africa was one of absolute savagery.

He then invaded Spain and did the same to his own people. He specifically singled out the Basques and Catalans for special treatment, allowing Hitler try out his methods on the Basques in particular. Picasso's Guernica is a testament to what he allowed take place. In the many years following his seize of power (from the democratically elected government of the Spanish people) he implemented policies designed to persecute Basques and Catalans, oulawing their languages for example.. He imposed a totalitarian regime backed by a police state.

I say this as an Irish man, Ireland being one of the only countries who provided large numbers of international volunteers for the Nationalist side - the self styled "blueshirts" under Genral Eoin O'Duffy who were a disgrace to this country. They spent their time getting drunk and shooting each other like the true fascists they were. Thankfully many Irishmen also fought on the other side under Frank Ryan and acquitted themselves very well.

I never ceased to be amazed at how some Poles can apply their own history to every other country in the world. Wake up! Franco was a fascist and a murderer. Just because he was anti-communist doesnt make him good. His ideal was to return Spain to its colonial past "glories". How the hell is that something to be supported and how the hell is it in any way democratic??

History / Polish Volunteers in the Spanish Civil War [140]

I did read it from the start and I am "overthrowing" your argument that Franco had some sort of mandate which alllowed him seize power from a democratically elected Government. He didn't. The Spanish Republicans had been elected fairly and squarely. Just because Franco didnt like the result doesnt mean he had the right to ignore it. That is the basis of the democratic process. Therefore he had no mandate other than his and his military colleagues warped convictions about restoring the former glory of Imperialist Catholic Spain.

Everything else flows from that most important point. Therefore my argument stands.

History / Polish Volunteers in the Spanish Civil War [140]


My intention is not to hijack your thread. Its just something I feel strongly about. I personally have known some people who lived under Francos regime and their stories were harrowing. Many thousands of families still do not know where their loved ones were buried. I just find it hard to understand how people who have lived under a totalitarian regime such as communism can have sympathy for somebody such as Franco who imposed the same on his own people.

And with regard to the religious aspect of this, its true that Franco saw himself as being on something of a crusade to reconquer Spain from the heathen communists. He based this on the reconquista of the middle ages when they reconquered the country from the Moors. Of course, the fact that Franco used arab soldiers do so is ironic to say the least.

Franco believed (or at least gave the impression) that he was on a mission from God. The church supported him and many priests were staunch fascists. The result of this was that church going (especially amongst males) in Spain is a very upper class activity, whereas many working class people are quite anti Church. In Ireland which was a staunchly Catholic country at the time, much propoganda appeared to suggest that the Republicans were murdering priests and nuns. This is what drove many people to enlist to fight for Franco. Of course, they didnt tell them that many of the priests were themselves responsible for attrocities commited in the name of God etc.

So its safe to say that Franco was a religious fundamentalist nutter (or he at least gave that impression), not unlike the Arab fundamentalists of today and his actions must be viewed in that context. He was supported by the elite of Spanish society who sought to keep Spain as a landlord/tenant based society, which it stayed until change began to emerge during the late 60s. Remember the Republicans had sought to implement land reform when elected.

He should not be held up as some sort of hero simply because he fought against communists. Theres no law that says you cannot be anti-communist and also a bad person.

History / Polish Volunteers in the Spanish Civil War [140]


So I am spouting left-wing mantra because I disagree with the actions of murdering military dictatorships? To quote one of your earlier posts -


The idea that Franco and his buddies wanted simply to end lawlessness under the Republicans is ridiculous. Spanish society had been in turmoil for a long time before the republican Governemnt were elected to power. Under Primo de Rivera there had been huge lawlessness and bloodshed. Franco himself had been used to brutally smash strikes by people seeking simply to get paid enough to be able to feed their families. Why didnt he launch his coup d'etat then if he wanted to save Spain from lawlessness?

The reason for lawlessness was the massive disparities in wealth between the landlords and their tenants in the country side and the business class and the workers in the cities. Spain was still a feudal based society where peasants were practically slaves and worked the land which was owned by very wealthy landowners. The poor wanted change and the rich wanted to maintain the status quo. Whence violence and lawlessness. The democratically elected Republican Government were attempting to introduce laws to reform these issues which , if given a chance, may have reduced such lawlessness. Instead, Franco, with the support of the elite, launched a coup d'Etat from Morrocco and the islands and unleashed war on his own people during which hundreds of thousands of them were kiled.

You have further made a claim that Opus Dei saved the Spanish economy, again which is ludicrous. The Spanish economy was a basket case until Scandinavians, Germans and British began to go there on the holidays in the late 1960s. It had pursued a policy of self-sufficency which had hindered its economic development. Unless you can provide some evidence for the idea that Opus Dei had any real visionary economic ideas then I would say its similar to asking the Pope to take over as Minister for Finance.

As I have said before, just because Franco was anti-communist doesnt make him good. And just becuase I am anti-Franco doesnt make me a left-wing idealogue, just someone who doesnt like totalitarianism in all its various guises.

History / Polish Volunteers in the Spanish Civil War [140]


The suggestion that Opus Dei was responsible for the Spanish economies' renaissance in the 1960s is not a sustainable argument IMO. Firstly, it is a religious organisation which, as far as Im aware, has no stated economic goals. Perhaps you could educate me on that but Im unaware of any such economic policies. I know that it goes around universities attempting to recruit young people, a bit like scientology, so its possible that a group of members of Opus Dei held cabinet posts at the same time in Franco's Spain, Francos Spain being a country which would have been sympathetic to young ultra catholic university graduates. However, to suggest that their economic policies came about as a direct result of their membership of Opus Dei doent make sense IMO.

There were a number of reasons for Spains 1960s boom. Firstly, Francos policies were seen to have failed. His country was being held back by his ultra-consevatism and people were literally starving to death. They were worried that sedition could spread amongst the people so they looked to open their economy to trade. The USA provided an aid package, on the understanding that Spain ally with them against the Russians. In addition, Spain cannot be seen in isolation in this period. The whole of Europe was experiencing a massive boom and Spain benefitted - once it ditched Franco's ludicrous economic policies. Also, there were massive amounts of emigrants remittances arriving weekly from France and other countries from millions of Spaniards who had been forced to flee the country by Franco. Its ironic that the very people he sought to murder were the ones who propped up his mickey mouse economy.

Finally, the arrival of mass tourism from Northern Europe provided a massive boost to the Spanish economy, some have estimated up to 9% of GDP was created through the arrival of tourists. In addition, the influx of foreigners, especially in Andalucia and Costa Brava, opened many Spaniards eyes to new ideas and provided them with a reference to judge the regime under which they lived. Little wonder that within a few years the regime was subsequently history.


Sotelo was a member of the Falange and had been involved in many murders himself. If I remember correctly a member of the Government party had been murdered days before his murder, and he was suspected. He was a bad bastard but yes, a democratic government should not engage in such tactics and I never defended such tactics. However, they pale into comparison beside the crimes of Franco's junta. You also seem to miss the point that it was Franco who got into bed with the Nazis, not the Republican Governemnt.

Another point which you are missing is that people wanted change. They had voted for it and were entitled to it. Franco, Sotelo and others didnt like that change. They wanted to maintain the elite positions they had always held as landowners, bankers, priests etc and tey were willing to go to war with the majority of the Spanish people to maintain their position. You can justify it all you want but their actions were illegal under international law. End of story.

As for priests and bishops and the rest, if they engage in militaristic actions, why shouldnt they become a target like anyone else in a war? You seem to think that religious can do no wrong. If you had come from the country I grew up in you might have a different opinion on that but that is a different matter. I will say again that just because Franco was anti-communist does not make what he did right.


Look Espana, when I lived in Spain I knew people who suffered under Franco. I understand that war is cruel but what was worse than the war was what happened afterwards. That ws evil. I understand that your family may have been affected by events in the 1930s and im not attempting to lecture you on your own history but there are two sides to every story.

Also, there are many sources of information available (not the internet) - I would suggest reading Arturo Barea's "The forging of a rebel" , which gives an account of life for the poor of Madrid during the early years of the century and also his participation in the Legion's campign in Morrocco as well as his subsequent invovlement in the civil war for another perspective. Similarly, Mark Kurlansky's book "A Basque history of the world" provides an insight into life under Franco for the minority groups who did not meet his criteria for membership of the nation.

History / Polish Volunteers in the Spanish Civil War [140]


You provided a source that claimed that members of Franco cabinet, who were also members of opus dei, contributed to a change in economic policy. Many politicians are members of various religions. It doesnt mean that the religions should take credit for the fact that these people commit acts which are good, bad or indifferent. Unless you can provide proof that Opus Dei has a specific economic policy then I will maintain that their membership of Opus Dei had very little to do with the fact that they may have studied economics at university. I could be wrong but I have never heard about that group having any specific economic policy and your link doesnt provide evidence of it either.


Quote
"In 1935 Calvo Sotelo unsuccessfully tried to gain control of the Falange Española from José Antonio Primo de Rivera. After the victory of the Popular Front in February 1936, Calvo Sotelo was a harsh critic of the new government.

On 12th July, 1936, José Castillo a lieutenant in the Assault Guards and an active member of the Socialist Party was murdered by a Falangist gang in Madrid. The following day a group of Castillo's friends took revenge by murdering Jose Calvo Sotelo. This event resulted in a military uprising led by Emilio Mola, Francisco Franco and José Sanjurjo and heralded the start of the Spanish Civil War".

spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/SPsotelo.htm


"We were winning the battle of Brunete until the German planes began to bomb us. Brunete was just flattened. There was a priest in the church steeple firing at us and when he came down he pushed the villagers to shield him while he kept shooting. One of the men from the American battalion shot him dead."

guardian.co.uk/g2/story/0,,395359,00.html#article_continue

In addition, just as an example of type of barbarism condoned by "Catholic" Franco see below account of his time in Morrocco,

"Despite fierce discipline in other matters, no limits were put by Millin
Astray or by Franco on the atrocities which were committed against the Moorish
villages which they attacked. The decapitation of prisoners and the exhibition of
severed heads as trophies was not uncommon. The Duquesa de la Victoria, a
philanthropist who organized a team of volunteer nurses, would receive in 1922
a tribute from the Legion. She was given a basket of roses in the center of which
lay two severed Moorish heads"

mcn.org/e/iii/franco.htm

In addition, I note that you make no reference to the many priests murdered by Francos men in the Basque country thereby making the argument that Franco was fighting to save traditional Catholic values sound really ridiculous. He was a power hungry maniac who used religion for his own purpose as most "religious" warriors have done throughout history. I've come across enough of them in Ireland to be able to speak with authority on that front.

I will state again, just because he was anti-communist does not make him a force for good.

History / Polish Volunteers in the Spanish Civil War [140]


So although he attempted to become leader of the Falange, he had no connection to that organisation?


A fanatical communist he may have been, but he was there, so his account of it is every bit as valid as quoting sources written by people who were born after the conclusion of the war.


Well obviously Franco thought that they should be targets as evidenced from the article attached belwo

Quote
"His documentation of the murder by Franco's men of 15 pro-Loyalist Basque priests after the fall of Bilbao is tragic proof that not all the outrages against the church in Spain were committed by the Reds".

time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,860852-1,00.html

History / Polish Volunteers in the Spanish Civil War [140]

I note your selective quotation policy.


I never said it wasnt a target. What I said was that theres no reason that many of its members should not have been targets as many actively supported the revolutionaries, with some actually taking part in the fighting. You were the one who had objecetd to "communist" targeting of priests as being "insanity", and I quote


But of course, you omitted any reference to Franco's forces targetting priests who held a different political viewpoint. Double standards?

The substance of your argument seems to be that Franco's actions were positive because they were anti-communist and had the backing of the Catholic Church, an organisation which you also credit with Spain's economic progress later on.

What I have shown is that Franco was no more a good Catholic than Fidel Castro, that his actions were not in keeping with Catholic doctrine and that, although promoting himself as being on a Christian "reconquista", he saw no problem with murdering priests who held a different political belief to him. In this regard he may be compared to Hitler and Stalin. I presume you are not going to defend their actions.

I have responded to your argument that the Catholic Church, through Opus Dei, had any great bearing on progressive economic policy. The Church has been a common denominator in keeping the Catholic countries of Western Europe its poorest for many, many years. Only since they have begun to remove it from political life have they begun to develop anywhere near their potential. Citing its influence on economic matters displays a lack of appreciation of its negative influence in Spain, Portugal, Ireland and southern Italy.

You have also said that he was not a fascist - and while you can argue the semantics all you want - the brutality of his actions did not differ greatly from Hitler or Mussolini or indeed Stalin. He was a totalitarian military dictator who waged war on the democratically elected government of his own people. However I dont think you will accept that most salient of points.

History / Polish Volunteers in the Spanish Civil War [140]


No I couldnt and I havent attempted to say that there were not crimes committed on the other side. However, IMO Franco was the main criminal in the conflict based on his actions both in initiating an illegal Coup d'Etat and especially through the persecution he inflicted on people after the war.


From my less extensive (than yours) knowledge of Catholic doctrine I have always understood that the Church has emphasised the primacy of the individual and the family. Most genuine Catholic teaching will define that as a man having the right to a fair wage in order to feed and clothe his family (fruits of his labour), as well as the right to own private property. I see the Church's defence of a society which perpetuated a system where the vast majority of peasants worked in slave type conditions for the benefit of rich landowners as being in blatant contravention of that doctrine.

The stated ideals of the Catholic Church are noble for the most part and it has provided some great historical figures such as your own Polish pope. However, the reality is that the Church has been used as a vehicle by many individuals in countries such as Spain, Ireland and elsewhere to further their own selfish interests as well as the interests of elites within those societies, normally at the expense of the poor. I would liken it to any establishment organisation which allows people solidify their own social elitist tendencies such as masons or even the communist party in the old Eastern Bloc. Thats not to say that many individual priests or religious were not good people. Just the organisation has very often been rotten.


Yes again, we will disagree and I will point to the fact that as a right wing military dictator who went against the democratic wishes of his people, Franco displayed fascistic tendencies. You have made some interesting points about the actual definition of fascism and whether he may be called a fascist on that basis, but irregardless of the semantics, the extremist far-right tendencies and his association with other fascist leaders means that, irregardless of whether he may be described as an "official" fascist or not, he may not be described as a force for good IMO.


There was stability eventually but I would argue at a huge human cost for Spain. For example, Poland was stable for many years under the communists but I would be surprised if you felt that Polish stability was a fair price for many years of a communist regime. IMO all extremism is bad and only serves to create a reaction against itself in the long run, thereby perpetuating a never ending circle of hate.

History / Polish Volunteers in the Spanish Civil War [140]

Yes - you are right - we should stop (apologies to Skotja if it went off topic) - however Im not sure if you proved me wrong - selective quotations prove very little!

Just as a final thought on this, I am genuinely interested in the points you have made about the Catholic Church's take on economic matters as I dont know much about this topic. If you could provide any other good sources where I could find out more about this I would be grateful.

No Pasaran! ;)

Real Estate / Interesting Article on Polish Real Estate [33]

Prices are coming down in practically every country which has participayed in the Global Housing bubble of the past decade and many are now heading into recession or worse - see Florida for an example of what can happen when things go really bad. As stated above, some of these countries are the places where Poles have emigrated to such as the UK and Ireland. I can confirm that the Irish economy has gone from growth of 7% and 5% last year to a projected figure of possibly 1% or even less for 2008. The reason is a collapse in the building trade. We will be in recession by the 4th quarter of this year.

As alligator says, the only real historic measure of house prices is Xtimes salary. If it costs up to 15 times salary for a flat in krakow, then you are in a bubble of epic proportions and throughout history bubbles always burst despite what industry people say.

No doubt much of the growth in Poland has been genuine economic growth over the past few years, plus there are other factors to consider in Poland such as the remittances from abroad and the young population but 15 times salary is a bubble IMO. Bubbles are irrational in their nature so its possible that it could continue for another couple of years. In Ireland it continued for about 5/6 years. However, the longer they continue the more severe the pain when they do eventually burst, as per whats currently in store for us over here.

Real Estate / Interesting Article on Polish Real Estate [33]

Yes - its striking to read the exact same arguments being put forward by contributors here as I have listened to in Ireland over the past few years explaining why the growth is logical etc . "Ireland is different" was a favourite, along with the young population etc etc. Of course now prices are down by 20% across the board, those who listened to them and bought since 2004 are probably in or nearly in negative equity. IMO a healthy property market should come about as a result of a strong economy - not the other way around. We, in Ireland are in the process of discovering this the hard way at present.

Capitalism is a two way street folks - things do not necessarily continue to improve indefinitely. Recessions are not pretty but Im not sure that people from the former Eastern Bloc States really appreciate this to be the case.

That said I dont think Poland is as badly placed as Ireland or Spain (or possibly UK) at the moment. I dont believe that the lending practices of Polish banks have become as lax they have in western countries (at least I hope not) and this could save Poland from experiencing as sharp a downturn as us.