History /
Poland-Russia: never-ending story? [1341]
If yes, well, your suffering is your own affair; it's you who inflicted it on yourselves during your 'revolution' and later. But the Katyn, among others, is what you inflicted on us. We're not you, you know?
Admit that Russians follow the same logic: We are not Poles. Why should we pay enormous attention to their troubles? We have ours.
Because we are guilty? Well who personally or familarly at least. Our ancestors have a strong alibi.
We are guilty because our ethnicity established communism? But representetives of different ethnicities participated in revolition. Polish speaking people also gave communists in Russia. Not the majority but correspondent to their percentage in lands non-occupied by Germans during WWI (In CzK-OGPU-NKVD before 1937 this persentage was higher than Russian one if we take into account ethnic Russian and Polish speaking shares of our population).
You seem to still think we are part of your 'country.' But it's over and all the stars seem to indicate that it's so for good.
Nobody thinks on that. For what do we need a countri without Gas and petrileum and not an excellent well-developped economy?
Everything Russians need they have within their country. All Russian problems also exist within Russian territory. Some people think there are territories in for example East Ukraine that should be Russians by the desire of its population. But nearly the half of population are satisfied by our limits.
Russians aren't ideological now. We are more pragmatic. Not all, there are many marginal people especially among old people but the transformation goes toward pragmatism.
Being pragmatic Russians are more inderested in business with the world to the west of Odra.
Russians are afraid Slavic world between West Europe and Russii will become and obstacle in this business despite the ideals of free commerce.
By supporting the Baltic gas tube Western people confirm Russian fear. Russians come in the conclusion that if such polici is supported within the EU the unanimity doesn't exist end West Europe doesn't have enough force to impose its economical and political standarts to Slavic countries.
And actually yes, Poles are very civlised people
It is evident especially when you use such terms as
otyebitsyaQuoting: ConstantineK
that we are more powerful
And what do you wish to do with this power?
The majority of Russians are going to spend it within now Russian limits to construct a good life.
There are force bodies as secret services and Armed forces that prosper taking money from budget. They are interested in conflicts with the West to justify receiving money.
There are marginals that think a strong dictatorship will take money from rich people (in reality from middle-classers) and distribute it among lumpens.
No irregular troops of middle classers to defend free society.
West world provokes tentions and apparently justifies reaction forces activities
the Russians are incomparably less prejudiced towards us than the Germans. The Russians don't consider us inferior to them. That's something.
Not so now. For today Russians Germany is a symbol of Wealthy, Law, Order and Justice. Russians consider Germany France and Italy should lead Europe and teach Slavic nations within EU.
I didn't hear any different opinion in Rissia today
You were spreading crap after we decided to join NATO and what happened ? Nothing
For Russians that wasn't the Polish question. The point is that NATO violated its gentleman word given in 1989 not to expand NATO.
What happened? The loss of credit to gentleman word and marginalization of liberal movement in Russia that had persuaded Russians to trust the West. Nothing more because Nato even being expanded isn't dangerous to Russia by its impotence to establish order even in a small territory of Kosovo.
But as to changes in the mind Russiaans don't believe the West that can violate its honest promise.
Before that Russians didn't believe their Soviet leaders only. After NATO expansion and similar collisions came the turn of the West.
It should be repeated that liberal people here are as a moral hostages in case of such violations and nobody want to become pro West except some marginal circles
You have been thousand times worse invaders than them, also as regards your nvasion of Germany and the way you treated their women.
Imagine such people are still here in Russia. That's the reason why Katyn doesn't attract Russian attention. There are other problems
Your commie crimes are thousand times worse than the Nazi crimes.
Well, notice Germans don't accuse Russians as Pole do that despite your statement.
Why?
I think they are more developped and more realistic than romantic Slavs
But you're too weak, poor muzhiks, to make your desires get fulfilled.
Happy to hear that. It is high time to give up penetrating into other states and the affairs of other countries. It is high time to pay attention to Russian internal affairs.
The western politicians will give up provoking Russian agressive forces and lumpens? They seem to be interested in choosing Russians as enimies in order to take attention away from theis own losses within the EU.
Western budget vampires (army, military economy, secret services) willl support Russian volonteer pacification? USA vampires take nearly 600 billion USD for defending national interests of a country separated from all possible enemies by oceans. American secret services take 90 billion dollars.
But you're too weak, poor muzhiks, to make your desires get fulfilled. The Yanks have beat you up in the Cold War and they actually have you under their heal now.
My desires aren't fulfilled by intermal problems. As to Americars no force is required to beat them because they are committing a suicide now. They are too strong but their idea to put all the Universe in order requires the force they will never have. Sooner or later they will spend all their force. As to young Americans they are more interested in national self-existence. US will abandon its friends sooner or later.
Armija Krajowa veterans will tell you what does it mean to be abandoned when you are surrounded by barbarian forces
- Are you kidding? What chutzpah indeed. - How about the Caucasus? How about the Baltic states? How about Afghanistan? How about war-mongering abroad - in Africa, South America, Asia during communism?
What are Polish soldiers doing in Irak now? Still looking for nuclear weapon?
Are there any Russians in Afganistan now? Which foreign troops are there today?
I wonder no Pole commented on my post in
https://polishforums.com/archives/2005-2009/history/poland-russia-ending-story-11550/3/ beginning with the words
Grzegorz Poland and Litwa for Politology is the same thing that Roman Empire for Law.. Including the proper Grzegorz.
Dear Poles, is it quite a frequent thing when a moskal starts to doubt about the humillation of RP past?
Your opinions are very important. Please comment if possible.
Well, I'll repeat my post:
Poland and Litwa for Politology is the same thing that Roman Empire for Law.
You can give a term to each process in politics using only Polish and Lithanian History, their political system. Till today you can understand any political process if you know RP political system and history.
RP democracy managed to resist so great attack as Potop and English or American democracies could only fail in such circumstancies. There were no adecuate survivals of any democratic or non-democratic Nation. You know? I'm ignorant. Sritish and American traditional politology is nothing in comparison with algorytms of RP. They were happy to be separated from enemies by seas and oceans, but their internal Civil wars were terrible. I'm deeply convinced in that
But neither in Polish history nor all over the world nobody respects Sarmat perioud. A great perjury in historical researches. Sometimes RP is even not mentioned in history of democratic development.
I should laught at the idea that anarchy killed RP. But see there is nothing in the world that is accepted with such unanimity as this idea. Even the idea that 2X2=4 can find more oppositors.
Polish endowments translate into Russian only historic researches that claim that anarchy was the reason of RP trouble in 1795. Even a moskal can't observe such self-humilation. in case the most RP deficiencies were more common with its neighbours (rokoszy, magnaty corruption). Nobody of these historians can even imagine that Three Black Eagles Union was a strong power. RP as well as each Nation in such situation was unable to reject. That a possible strong regular army could rebel, kill all liberties in RP kill half a population in Spy suspect take all resources of the country and then debilitated RP could be a more comfortable victim for enemies. Nobody noticed that.
Many democrates exist all over the world but when they look at RP they become to teach Tirania. Elected King is bad, reduced superior power is worse, Sejm votation in favour of war or against it is the worst thing. Nobody asked why the poor szlachta was eager to defend Golden freedom although among poor people were no Romantics. Sarmat obscurantism opposed to Enlightment is condemned all over the world - do you know the price of Enlightment, this pre-communism?
I don't speak in details about menor lie. When for example it is written that Liberum Veto killed RP, but only very few researches state that Liberun Veto ended in 1764. Many examples of the sort.
Everybody in the world condemnes RP in generar and sometimes glorifies some romantic heroes. Everybody says there was the worst in Europe the System that gave at the beginning of 16 century right to vote to a higher percentage of people than England in 1832 300 years later.
Polish literature about sarmat perioud isn't translated into Russian and even English. One cannot take from Internet in Russian or English books of Pasek or Rzewiski. Poland is fighting for Belarus democracy but it doesn't give texts on common past (Belarus ruling circles dismiss people researching Litwa history).
Many Polish public servants receive good salaries for Polish propaganda abroad but detailed Polish history isn't translated yet in the leading languages.
Everybody in the world hates RP history or loves it in some perverted forms: Many heroes bad political system.
Grzegorz, Imagine some similar is with Russia. Russia has sins but few people abroad know them (although we don't keep silence - you don't want to listen). And deficiencies you think the main sometimes are only the consecuencies as Soviet soldiers in Poland - they didn't have another way, everything started 30 years earlier. Why? By lack of democracy, poverty? Before 1917 there was a huge economic and political progress and Russia was winning a war.
I'm sure you weren't told about the reasons of communist victory.
