Feedback / Wanted to write in Polish, but my posts were deleted.. [5]

Have understood. In casual agreement insofar as it's clear that Poles post in English rather than in Polish in order to practice their second-language skills.

Politeness to others may be a factor as well.

Up till now, it seems that most know general English at least as well as I know Polish.

Marek

Language / Should I learn both Polish and German [147]

I recommend both.

As I've recently found in this forum, many Poles seem eager to "practice" their English skills, often at the expense at using their often far more precise native tongue (perhaps to the detriment of clearer understanding!)

German is much more phonetically transparent than English, certainly in terms of its orthography, grammatically/morphologically, that's another story though.

Polish is the language used in everyday life in Poland. Unlike in Germany, most Poles are not able to (or even willing) to try to switch to relatively fluent English when meeting monolingual foreign visitors.

Again, learning both will only make things easier for all concerned.
English may seem the "world" language, but this is more myth than reality in may experience.

Duzo powodzenia!/Viel Glueck!

Marek

Hi, Chris!

Don't let Polish scare you. It might seem more challenging than German in the beginning, but it's even more phonetically regular and much more so than English.

Spoken Polish can be difficult to follow for many foreigners I've encountered learning it in the US. Like Americans, Poles use a lot of slang, even more than Germans. Written Polish though is usually quite formal and the grammar does take practice. Similar to German however, it also has cases (in Polish "przypadki"), but has less complicated verb conjugations.

Marek

Language / Should I learn both Polish and German [147]

I agree.

Poles DON'T enjoy either hearing or necessarily speaking German any longer, particularly the youth.

Are you a Polish native speaker? Your English seems quite good, surprisingly. Many Poles now try to speak English abroad (understandable), but the results are normally less than satisfying!

Germans tend to speak English with mistakes too, often aggregious ones, but frequently do so with such self confidence that the listener is often unaware of the error until a short time later.

Marek

Polish has those awful consonant clusters! It sometimes takes native speakers years to master them, even when learned in childhood.

People used to joke that former Premier Lech Walesa spoke Polish much the way US-President Bush speaks English, repleat with grammar errors.

Oddly enough, it was a Pole by birth (later the great English author Joseph Conrad) who became one of the best writers in English, his style indistinguishable from a Brit. He leaned English, incidentally, only on his early twenties!!

When he spoke however, his Polish accent and phrase mangling became woefully apparent.

:)

Language / Should I learn both Polish and German [147]

Nearly everyone already does!

Problem is though, they will most likely never learn it as well as "we natives" do :)
Many however think the contrary and this is where difficulties arise.

Another stumbling block is that in every country where English is taught as a foreign language, only natives of that country teach young pupils, NOT Brits, Yanks or even Canadians. For the latter, the government waits until the learners are almost out of highschool!

By that time, it's nearly too late. The non-native's accent and speech pattern in English has already been imprinted in the student's brain since grade school!

Marek

Language / Should I learn both Polish and German [147]

What's easier, Matyjasz, to write in English or in Polish?
Co jest latwiej dla ciebie, pisac po angielsku lub po polsku?

German's easier for me than either, but I'm just curious (Jestem ciekawy).

Marek

Matyjasz,

Once I sat in on an English lesson given here in my city, in Queens N.Y. not far from the second largest Polish immigration area outside Chicago, in Greenpoint Brooklyn. The teacher was a Polish-American (but from Poland!), her pupils were the monolingual sons and daughters of visiting diplomats, here on extended leave from the Polish government, and the first few minutes were as follows

Goot morrrnink, goot morrrnink my styoodents!
Todaj vee talkink about secont lasson in textbook....

I cringed to think how English language instruction in Poland must be if all the primary school instructors are not native English speakers. Do most speak as this lady did or does_

Perhaps though a few talented ones slip past. :)

Marek

Language / Polish verbs are conjugated with a separate ending for all six persons: I, you, he, she, it, we, you [29]

Hi, Achilles!

DIfficult for foreigners are also the different "perfective"/ïmperfective" aspects (dokonany/niedokonany) in Polish, e.g. "brac" vs. "wziac", "podobac sie" vs. "spodobac sie"etc.

What do you think?
Marek

Language / Polish verbs are conjugated with a separate ending for all six persons: I, you, he, she, it, we, you [29]

Huegel, hi!

I was wondering how useful it is for someone such as yourself who already knows German, to compare the usage of aspect in Polish with certain inseparable prefixes in German, e.g. "steigen"/BEsteigen/ ERsteigen etc., in order to indicate the degree of action.

Lots of stuff has been written on this topic, enough to fill several library rooms.
Just was interested in your thoughts.

Marek

Language / Polish Case System [32]

Well, I can try.
masculine sing. masc. pl. (table)

Nom. stól stoly
Gen. stolu stolów
Dat. stolu stolom
Akk. stól stoly
Lok. stole stolach
Instr. stolem stolami
Vok. stól! stoly

feminine sing. (book) feminine pl.

Nom. ksiazka ksiazki
Gen. ksiazki ksiazek
Dat. ksiazce ksiazkom
Akk. ksiazke ksiazki
Lok. ksiazce ksiazkach
Instr. ksiazka ksiazkami
Vok. ksiazko! ksiazki

neuter sing. (state, Mr. & Mrs.)

Nom. panstwo panstwa
Gen. panstwa panstw
Dat. panstwu panstwom
Akk. panstwo panstwo
Lok. panstwu panstwach
Instr. panstwem panstwami
Vok. panstwo! panstwo

This is merely a mmost random sampler of only a very few common nouns. A full list of the others (including the exceptions to the exceptions???!!)

Until another post!

Marek

The plurals never appeared!!!
Sorry. Must be my pc.

M.

Language / Polish Case System [32]

Prosze bardzo! Your welcome, DannyBoy.
Again, it is BY NO MEANS complete. It should though give you a slight intro. Don't blame your girlfriend for being recalcitrant, by the way.

In college, I knew a Hungarian coed while I was teaching myself some of that language. Although she and I were friends (not romantically involved at the time, however!), she consistently balked at attempts to answer my sundry questions. Sometimes native speakers feel embarrassed by their own lack of non knowledge.

I didn't included adjectives in the chart. Below's only a brief taste: masc. "maly stól" (small table)

N maly stól male stoly
G malego stolu malych stolów
D malemu stolu malym stolom
A maly stól maly stoly
L malym stole malych stolach
I malym stolem malymi stolami
V maly stól male stoly

To be continued, I'm sure!

Marek

Hi again, DannyBoy!

Regrettably, I have no Polish ligatures/key signs on my keypad, that can be fatal in terms of reproducing Polish words accurately :)

My "list" (for lack of a better word!) did not even begin to include the confusing masculine nouns, e.g. "mezczyzna", "kolega" etc...., with feminine "a"-endings but masculine declensions!!

For another time.
Marek

Language / Wanna converse with Polish people [30]

Witaj, pszczólko! ("pszczólka"- your forum name "honey bee" in Polish)

No, jak dlugo uczysz sie jezyka polskiego? - How long have you been learning Polish? (I have to ask in Polish about how long you've been "learning"/uczyc sie, because "studying"would mean to a Pole "studiowac", i.e. formal school or college instruction.)

I just recently was introduced to this forum and find it excellent!

Nie oddawno zostalem przedstawiony do tego czat-foruma i to jest swietne!

Pa!
Marek

Hi, Ghost!

.......is not very good.:)

Just remember that the difference between the usage of "good" vs. "well" in English is about the same as between "dobry" vs. "dobrze" in Polish.

Czesc, jak sie masz? - Dobrze! (nie: dobry)
Czy czytales ksiazke? - Tak, ona jest bardzo dobra ksiazka! (nie: dobrze)

Marek

Language / Should I learn both Polish and German [147]

Hallo, mido_int!

Polnisch ist doch schwerer:) Jezyk polski jest trudniej.

Marek

Language / Wanna converse with Polish people [30]

Duchu!
Z przyjemnoscia:)

Marek

Language / Wanna converse with Polish people [30]

On-line kurs nie, ale sprobujesz u twoim uniwersytecie.
Marek

Language / Why don't you have only one past tense in English? [14]

Macie "aspekty" po polsku, z. pr. "isc", "chodzic", "pojsc" itd. Mamy "czasy" (tenses) po angielsku, n. pr. "I came" (jeden raz) przeciwko "I have been coming" (wiele razow), aby pokazowac roznice cynnosci.

Marek

Language / Wanna converse with Polish people [30]

Chetnie, duchu. Prosze bardzo!

Staram sie, szukac dobrego kursa dla ciebie. Czy moze znasz "Rosetta Stone"?
Marek:)

"............dobrego kursU........
Przepraszam, Duchu.

Pozdrawiam! :)
Marek

Language / Wanna converse with Polish people [30]

OOOPS! Sorry there, Honeybee.

Ghost merely inquired if I could recommmend some decent English course, at which point I mailed him back that he ought to try at his local university. I then asked if he was familiar with "Rosetta Stone", the softeware-learning set. He replied that he was and thanked me anyhow for trying. :)

Later, I posted a correction to my own previous post!
Marek

Duchu!
Dzieki, nawzajem:)

Marek

Language / Polish Genitive Masculine: "a" or "u"? [3]

Your welcome! (I think :) )
Wasn't aware I was really explaining anything, rather,
I was posing a problem and looking to others in the fomums
perhaps Ivonka, for further guidance.

Marek

MXX,
Oh, there's plenty of "grammar weirdness" to go around in Polish, at least for the unanointed!

I studied the language for four years during my school time and still make mistakes in case endings (less so in apsect correlation , however, I must say :) ), evident from several of my posts, I'm embarrassed to admit.

In Poland though, Poles are fairly tolerant of such errors (as are the Germans), compared, for example, with the Hungarians, even the Icelanders, who often take almost malicious pleasure in snickering over some foreigner's faults in grammar.

Duzo powodzenia!
Marek

Language / Article on Writing in Polish [3]

Grzegorsz,

Pisany jezyk takze jest formalniej niz mowiony jezyk. (I'll continue in English, only on account of Forum rules :) )

I find that the stylistic differences between speech and writing even more extreme in Polish than, say, in German or certainly, US English. Commercial French though, has about the strictest rules I know of among Western languages, for formal vs. informal usage.

Marek

Language / Do Poles get confused over the different word endings? [40]

Koach,
I would suppose it's the same whether English native speakers confuse the tenses simple vs. progressive ( "I speak..."vs. "I am speaking...") or if Germans mix up their cases etc.

Natives may make any number of linguistic errors, basic mistakes though, such as the very foundations of their language, are probably not among them.

Marek

Language / Numbers in the Polish Language [39]

Hyypia,

Upwards from "five" - piec - it can get complicated, for instance, the nouns will change form on occasion to conform to the genitive case. This phenomenon exists in Russian as well:

2-4 lata, but piec, szesc etc. "lat"
2-4 paczki (small Polish filled dessert puffs), piec "paczkow"

Counting of mixed genders is also different after "piec", the declension variations too numerous to list right at the moment. All numbers of course, are declined.

Marek

Language / Do Poles get confused over the different word endings? [40]

Walesa's errors, e.g. "rekami" for "rekoma" might be equivalent to our Bushisms, "nucular" not "nuclear" etc. :)

President Eisenhower was legendary for sentences like "Things are more the way they are now, than they ever were."
Marek

Language / Do Poles get confused over the different word endings? [40]

The case of the noun is normally determined by the verb or preposition as In German,
Polish seems almost quixotic in its use of such cases for which there are few rules as much as there are examples of usage.
Marek

Steve,

To continue briefly, nouns are "declined", verbs are "conjugated". Any Polish grammmar will give lists of verbs which are governed by certain cases, e.g. "pisac" = to write, always takes the accusative case (and the corresponding endings). "Pisze dlugi list." = I'm writing a long letter." vs. "wladzac" = to have a command of, i.e. fluency in a language, "On wladza kilkoma jezykami = He has a command of several languages. "Wladzac" takes the instrumental case, along with the prerequisite endings, e.g. the adjectival " kilka (several) " adds "-oma" and "jezyk" (language) adds the nominal "-ami".

What can make Polish seem like a hard language is the seemingly slippery rules applied to noun endings for "animate" vs. inanimate" nouns having different genders.

For this, an immensely longer post would be necessary. I'd therefore consult a detailed grammar book or an outline of Polish grammar.

Powodzenia!
Marek

Michal,

I was once told by a Polish native speaker, an English TOEFL-student of mine in fact, that when she was of grade school age, the most common mistake during Polish class was to write "ogrut" for "ogrod" (with the accent-aigu like mark above the letter "o") on dictations. :)

Marek

Language / Do Poles get confused over the different word endings? [40]

thanx, Stevie!
I know what I'm talking about so much I added an extra "z" to "wladac"!! :) :)
Appreciate the vote of confidence though. I never pretend however to be totally accurate in written Polish, merely fluent.
Marek

Widze, ze mieszkasz tu w Nowym Jorku. Ja tez. W Queensie. A ty? Czy uczysz sie teraz jezyka polskiego, albo studiowalas na uniwersytecie? Czy juz bylas w Polsce?

Language / Do Poles get confused over the different word endings? [40]

Check "her "profile. As in "Stevie Smith", the famous British lesbian poet. :)
Marek

Language / Do Poles get confused over the different word endings? [40]

A well-known English authoress of the gay persuasion who became a 60's icon in the London underground (no pun on your "tube" :) :) )scene.

Marek

Czesc, Stevie.

"....where my words will sound so pathetically wrong...."

CWICZENIE TWORZY MISTRZA, i.e. You gotta start somewhere. :)
Marek

Language / Numbers in the Polish Language [39]

Michal,

I was recommended "Polish Reference Grammar" by Dana Bielec, put out by Routledge Press. It's fairly comprehensive as grammars go and seems to have zero typos, compared to some other texts I've seen.

Marek

Language / Numbers in the Polish Language [39]

Michal,

I'm not a native speaker either, not even a bilingual (-born), but you are in fact right, because the rule about plurals does indeed cover ALL genders, after the number "piec":

"Dwie ksiazki" "matki", "panstwa", "stoly" etc. , but "Piec"/"Szesc ksiazek, matek, panstw, "stolów" though, is perfectly correct. :)

Marek

Language / Do Poles get confused over the different word endings? [40]

Michal,

Think you mean "orthographical" dictionary (just as in Polish :) ), NOT autobiographical!
Marek

Language / Do Poles get confused over the different word endings? [40]

Michal,
Regarding your last post, English-language native speakers tend to be at a growing disadvantage, especially here in the States (apparently in the UK as well) in terms of the rate of illiteracy. "Brover"/"Brother" is merely a striking example, yet the total number is doubtless vast.

In smaller, more homogeneous language groups, where speakers of those languages are forced by sheer speaker percentage to learn majority languages, i.e. English, their literacy level tends to be strikingly high compared with the US or Great Britain. Iceland, for instance, has a population of a mere quarter million, enough to fit into several major New York highrises. Their language isn't spoken (even studied much) outside of that country. Therefore, they've got to learn English.

Marek