History / Polish Anti-semitism - origins? [186]

"All suffered the same." No matter Polish Jew or Swede? (And yes, there clearly can be shown differences in number of deaths by ethnicity inside Poland too.) This is as unwitted as saying that "All born in this world are born with equal possibilities." No matter born in Kenya or born in Finland? And for what I see it is precisely this guy "joepilsudski" talking and nagging about the Jews all the time. Little bit of an obsession there? Maybe he should change his name for something more suitable like "joedmowski".

History / Polish Anti-semitism - origins? [186]

Joedmowski: It seems that you see what you want to see.

Topic of this thread could be one very intresting area of conversation, for example as a part of Poland's pre-1939 past when 1/3 of her citizens consisted of non-Polish Catholic people; Jews, Ukrainians, Germans, Tatars, Belarusians etc. . People lived together, people lived apart, but for me it seems that for the majority people lived in "normal" relations between other groups of people.

And what I would be intrested to read about under this specific thread would be the thinking of what elements we're specific in Polish Catholic-Jewish relations, as it's clear that these groups have had long close history together within the body of Polska.

Also, the conflicts between these groups, what we're the reasons? I think reading about Pan Pilsudski and mister Dmowski open some basic Polish views on this issue among others in the larger picture of the idea and heritage of The Old Republic.

And finally, as the most dark example of conflict, how was Jedwabne possible? Before the war Poles and Jews of this area lived in mutual co-existance and we're bound to each other (at least) by economy (for example one futureday Polish historian from Jedwabne writes that the town Polish and Jewish butcher had shops next to each other and shared the same ice-room for the meat). And that these people lived this way together even most of the area's (Bialystok area) Poles we're voters of Dmowskite nationalist party, and on the other hand the Jews had various political views among their community.

So, just few of my points about this intresting social history of free Poland. Please feel free to add your own thaughts. Personally I'm very interested in individual stories of pre-war Poland as echoes from this lost entity.

History / Polish Anti-semitism - origins? [186]

And how I tried...

Ok, Sokrates. Things aren't so just by you saying they are so. Provide a link to back up your story.

Actually I was more interested of talking about the common history of Poles, Jews and other peoples. But of course we can do this normal thing and conclude that it was the Jews fault that they have to killed in Jedwabne. And so on...

So, origins of Polish anti-Semitism = Jews?

Edit:

Actually, I find interesting aspect from the Polish side towards their Jewish countrymen that was expressed during WW II. In the same time the Poles saved the most Jews by number than in any other European country, and also on the other hand one can clearly show this sentiment that we are talking about here.

But I can say for sure that the origins of Polish anti-Semitism we're not in the WW II. Read about Roman Dmowski for instance.

And in the accused Jews of NKVD murdering Poles. Yagoda was Jew from what I remember, then again founder of NKVD's precessor Cheka was Feliks Dzierżyński, member of Polish nobility. So in what conclusion do we end up here?

History / Polish Anti-semitism - origins? [186]

Yes, you might go as an good example of something alright. Say "Jew" and you get wonders...

No one here, exept you perhaps, is equalling Polish people to Nazis. In some perverted way you seem to want to be.

Next, I guess you want to list by name every Pole who collaborated with the Nazis?


I found no good proof of this, but naturally it could be since quite a number of Poles those days had some Jewish roots. But I must say that I ran into most imaginable sites where basicly every other Polish politician and cultural person is beign accused of beign Jewish; including the Kaczynskis, Kwasniewski, Lech Walesa and Andrzej Wajda. Boy, I must too be Jewish!


So, there is Jewish anti-Polonism but no such thing as Polish anti-Semitism exist?

Also, to mirror your logic, Poles are disliked by what Poles have done to other peoples but no such thing as anti-Polonism exist?

And good job with reading and understanding the Dmowski-part. Or it just doesn't fit into your message?

History / Polish Anti-semitism - origins? [186]

Bez sensu. Primitive reactions cause brainlocks: Jedwabne and Jews mentioned - Polish national pride under attack, call in the cavalry!

Sokrates: I admire your talent to complitely ignore all that doesn't fit into your picture. After this post our dance is over, you can think that you won this if it makes you feel better. For some reason I will continue to believe this Jedwabne-born Polish historian and her few hundred hours of tape-recorded interviews with the elderly of presentday Jedwabne, alongside with my own judgement.


You fail.

So, after all you can come down to say "Jews" and "some few Poles" are against each other. We can agree on one thing about that. Some few Poles really are bigots ;)

What comes to my own experience the one word to describe Polish people would be Cordial. I am interested of Polish minority subjects partly because I study history and have fallen for tragic and romantic Polish history, that is also multinational, and partly because I'm foreigner who lives in Poland, although in a way I feel Polish; I live in Poland, I have lived with Poles, I hang out with Poles, I speak almost decent Polish (well, many times not so decent); in other words, I live inside the culture as much as I can. And I can believe that also members from these past-time minority nationals could have felt much like I do.

Also, I find Jewish people as admirable people. And guess what! My love for Poland and respecting the Jews just as much as the Poles do not exclude each other.

History / Polish Anti-semitism - origins? [186]

Joedmowski: What Gross searched and wrote about was mostly confirmed by investigation done after. Jedwabne events happened. There are critical, but mostly normal, debate about some details: role of the German participation (active or passive) and number of victims (first memorial stone on the place talked about 300 victims by the Nazis, modern numbers show 1600 murdered Jews). What I wrote about was mostly based on Jedwabne born and raised Polish historians interviews with the elderly of Jedwabne (as mentioned before). Though, I also have read the Gross' book on the subject, as some other presentations. I'm very found of history-politics-memory.

That fist memorial stone that talked about "300 killed by "Hitler's soldiers"" is typical national communist times distortion of the memory. You can find these memorial stones all around of Poland. No victim names or nationalities, and said to be done by "the Hitler's soldiers". Of course many of the victims had been Jewish Poles not Catholics but this wasn't the way it wanted to be remembered. Also, not only the victims nationality is hidden but the killers too. Naturally, many times they really were "The Hitler's soldiers" but then what the Polish national communist regime didn't want to remember was the killed by the NKVD, and sometimes, unfortunately, the cases like Jedwabne.

History / Polish Anti-semitism - origins? [186]

The way I see it is that it seems to be no matter how or in what tone one talks about issue such as what happened in Jedwabne, the same primitive reaction occurs.

In my view healthy national self-esteem also allows open conversation about downsides and darker events.

Naturally I am unable to present you all my sources on this subject via this forum, but here is one, the Polish historians response and debate about the tidewave caused by "Neighbours". Please pay special attention to "My Jedwabne" by Marta Kurkowska, and you will get insiders view and professional view in one.

One debated issue between Polish historians is the amount of collaboration amongst Jewish community with the occupying Red Army in the east areas. I think that it varied. For sure it was larger than the collaboraton of Poles, as was the case with Belarussian and Ukrainian population there. One British historian (with Polish roots), Mark Mazower, writes about the relative suppression (relative as it wasn'

t comparable to events that took place in USSR in Germany in that time) of minorities rights in Poland after the death of Pilsudski. He concludes that this suppression was one noticable factor that then made the way of these minorities to join with the occupant in larger numbers. On the other hand, there surely was more Polish than Jewish collaboration with the Nazis, but this goes without saying. Eventhough Poland could not be seen as very collaborative nation, more the opposite.

Also, it does not hurt anyone actually reading the Gross' book before calling him Polonophobe etc. According to him the killers were partly consisted of locals and partly of Poles from near areas who came by with trucks. According to Gross these were groups of men who were doing this kind acts in the area in that sad time. Number of other historians claim direct German participation.

History / Polish Anti-semitism - origins? [186]

BB: If you want to go deeper in the case please read debated issues. I think that link to the book where Polish historians have dialogue gives good sight. One of the controversial issues there is the German involment (none, passive or active). Gross himself writes that there were Germans present but that they did not actually (or directly) participate on the killing, but just standed by taking photographs of the Poles torturing and murdering the Jews.

I can't say for 100% sure that there wasn't direct German partcipation, yet it seems to me that the view of German troops doing the act (to some unnamed people) comes from national communist official memory and from the local communitys self-regulated way of remembering what happened in those days: such as shown for example in the document by Gazeta Wyborcza reporter Anna Bikont, where the townspriest tells story about German troops killing the Jews. When interviewed individually however, some Jedwabniaks dare to remember otherwise. "I swear to God it was the Poles." weeps one old man remembering sight from his youth. But those who speak out meet with hostile denial from the community. (Anna Bikont: "My z Jedwabnego")

"I think of them as Poles, no matter if they believed in Moses, for me they are Poles." tells the former mayor of Jedwabne to Bikont. Kurkowska has later told that the mayor had to leave his post because the climate around him went too aggressive for him speaking out. Now the former mayor lives in Chigaco as construction worker.

Naturally, these unfortunate events would not ever have happened if Nazi Germany and Soviet Union had not invaded Poland.

To a slightly different issue. There seems to be quite alot of people who want to see the NKVD as (pro-)Jewish organization. Please keep in mind that 1/3 of all people arrested and deported from the east areas by the NKVD were Jewish. This is much more than their population in what was Eastern Poland at the time would assume.

History / Polish Anti-semitism - origins? [186]

BB: Germans did plenty of that kind of jobs - to large number of people - during their occupation of Poland. This one, not done by the Germans. What about this I did not say clear enough? If you read any pre-1989 official Polish history on the issue - there it is done by "the Hitler's soldiers" - the Germans.

Also, you are right, there have been pogroms - od czasu do czasu - during the long history before WW II, without anything to do with Germany. But with these cases that took place in Nazi occupied Poland you have to put them into this context (and to compare with similar events that took place under similar circumstances in Baltic countries, for instance), otherwise you will fall in the foxholes of anachronism.

But, to try to put end for this, I fully agree with Prince on the material that he has collected, and that I'm familiar with. And also with the comments by polam i Matyjasz; rather than focusing to the conflict there is also this rich past of Polska i Litwa, and the Jewish heritage is one part of it's memory. The problem is that the conflict always draws so much of the attention that sometimes our view of history is just conflict following another. We choose what is more important.

History / Polish Anti-semitism - origins? [186]

Very good analysis in a larger scale.

History / Polish Anti-semitism - origins? [186]

"The Jews" are individuals, thinking persons too you know, Crnogorac, not some demonic "Zionist-Communist" collective of one mind.

What I have noticed during my not-so-long time in this forum that there is A LOT more anti-Jewish (and anti-other) feeling here than there is actually in Poland. Some people here even only seem to have one cause for existance, spreading the "Jews this Jews that"-talk.

So, I just hope that people who come here to read don't get wrong based picture of Poland.

History / Polish Anti-semitism - origins? [186]

Not so many Jewish people here, only us who think that we are the experts on subject called "the Jews".

Hope you haven't been horrified. :)

Life / [Poland movies] "Sztuczki" (2007) Has anyone seen it? [4]

Sztuczki somehow remimded me of Amelie, this world famous French movie.
Let me explain. In both movies the main character wants to affect the real world by actions that he/she does from the point of his/her imaginary world. I can definetly promote this movie to people who are open minded about movies and want to explore movie culture of different countries.

And I just love the atmosphere of those old train stations.

History / Polish Anti-semitism - origins? [186]



ROFL? I really have problem with taking you seriously. But the good thing is that I laugh the s*it out of myself reading you. :D You really are unique, you know that don't you ;-)

PS. Puzzler, my sweetbunny, although it seems clear that you would like to have love affair with me I think I will just ignore you from now one. Pa pa!

History / The movie Defiance is a big lie (heroes that saved Poland suppored communism) [102]

At the time I made my Bachelor's Study from the Warsaw Rising of 1944.

First I did make myself familiar with the social sphere in Warsaw of that time. These statistics I took from study made by English historian Joanna Hanson in 1980's called "Civilian population and the Warsaw Uprising of 1944".

% Catholic / Jewish
Working classes 66 / 50
Lower middle classes 26 / 47
Upper classes 8 / 3

(1/3 of Warsaw population were Jewish)

I don't see "parasites" on that picture, but naturally we are all free to make our own conclusions from the facts.

History / Polish Anti-semitism - origins? [186]

Celinski: I think it's more of the problem of this "Victor's write the history". And please read me carefully here, I'm not saying that our history as it's know from books is some lie by the victors, but first it always goes their way - more or less. And as the things did go after Yalta, we could say that here the ones who lost lot of their voice were the people who fell under Soviet sphere of influense after WW II.

And all in all I see the Allied-Soviet victory as the least evil from the other options that were Axis victory or, if Molotov-Ribbentrop pact had held, the Axis-Soviet victory. One can only imagine how much history would have been distorted under those other options. Also, if you read about the radical Nazi doctrine about future for Slavic race, I could not really see that as an option if I were Slav.

What comes to the Jewish suffering compared to Polish suffering, I can only say that ones suffering does not exclude others suffering, all people should remember this... And there was a lot common Polish&Jewish suffering.

In Poland during WW II, only of the Poland's own inhabitants, some 3 million Polish Jews were killed (90% of total Polish Jewish population) and almost the same amount of non-Jewish Poles (another 10% of the total population of the country). In total, more than 20% of Her pre-war inhabitans were killed during the war. That is huge amount for any country to bare.

History / Polish Anti-semitism - origins? [186]

Please keep the conversation on subject of this thread. I'm sure Internet is full of threads where great minds who think alike gather to say the truth about Israeli policies etc. etc.


What do you mean? Gas chambers were very Nazi thing. Soviets preferred work camps and shot in the back of the head in the NKVD manner (actually, also Nazi "security" units did this).

News / Israeli youths misbehave in Poland ceremony score [47]

Tomorrow my bus was five minutes late, I blame that on THE ZIONISTS!

News / Israeli youths misbehave in Poland ceremony score [47]

Why? They control everything, don't they ;) Blaming the Zionists!! the Zionists!!! on everything makes me feel better about myself. Ps. The Zionists are everywhere!!!!

News / Israeli youths misbehave in Poland ceremony score [47]


I understand criticism towards Israel policies. But that is total BS. Talking about respect...

Israel has existed around 60 years now. Let's put some things into context here. Second (and bloodier) intifada lasted from 2000 to 2008 and took over 4000 Palestinian casualties by Israel (also, Hamas killed few hundred fellow Palestinians) and Palestinians killed 1000+ Israeli Jews (mostly civilians). Palestinians are the weaker side there, but organizations like Hamas have their supporters. Sad situation there, but well documented by numerous reporters unlike in many areas in this world where a lot bloodier things happen...

Then some comparisons:

Killed in Iraq after US-British invasion: at least 100 000 (some say lot more), mostly Iraqi civilians. Oh these good Western saviors.

How many Russia killed in Chechenya? More than 150 000 for sure. Totally raped the country, Chechen civilians disappeared every night, found raped and killed. Jurists who take Chechen side are shot to death every year. This kind of behavior does not happen from Israeli troops towards Palestinian civilians.

My home country, Finland, during it's 91 year independent existence has killed many times more people than Israel.

"Logical conclusion": the Jews are evil like no other men.

News / Israeli youths misbehave in Poland ceremony score [47]

Sasha: I agree that I put this out quite inflammably, but still... Read about Chechenia, make easy math calculations. Nobody knows exact numbers, but this is what I count, only the averages I'm afraid.


And this is what gets media attention, not the suffering of Chechen people.

And also, my point wasn't to show how bad Russia, US or Britain (or Finland for that instance) is. It was to show the hippocrate double-standards that so many are willing to impose on Israel when judging it's actions.

News / Israeli youths misbehave in Poland ceremony score [47]

Ok, I have had enough of talking about violence, at least for this evening.

Sasha: Yea, I chose this avatar without second taught, Krtek reminds me of my childhood. :)