Life / Polish Integration with other Nationalities [150]

I mean I've made clear that I'm not for forcing integration of any kind, I'm not for importing other races, and by multicultural I never said that meant just bringing some more blacks, that would be a very limited view of multiculturalism. Since you know where I'm from you should understand that by multiculturalism I mean something more, I don't know why you're trying to make it seem like this is about black people. If I'm complaining that my black skin is an issue, it doesn't follow that we need more blacks, I think it just means that in order for greater tolerance and understanding between Poles and different races, there should be more interaction with different cultures.

This is likely to happen through festivals taking place here in Warsaw, cultural events, entering the EU, and things like preparations for the Euro in 2012. I think the latter could have a big impact in transforming the landscape.

As far as my dissatisfaction with Poland's ethnic composition, I think this homogeneity is unfortunate seeing as Poland was historically multi-ethnic, and has only become homogenous as a result of various manmade tragedies, so I'd say that today's poland is the result of sad social engineering. so I find your statement here puzzling:


Your culture and heritage has been traditionally diverse. I'm not pissing at you or at Poland, I'm just complaining about the racist elements, if you find this unfair, then I think you might have some moral issues.

However, Poland is the way it is now, and that's that. What bothers me is the intolerance that appears to have a stronger presence here than in some other homogenous places, like the rural 100% white areas of Switzerland i'd been to, where people might have stared at me funny, but I never dealt with menacing contingents. It's only normal that I should complain about innapropriate behavior.

However, I DO think there is something completely ridiculous in the idea of courting capitalism in a big city like Warsaw, letting all these foreign/international companies move in, while saying that the streets should remain 99% Polish. I see a lot of multicultural advertsiments here which I'm not quite sure what to make of, seeing as they don't reflect the city's make-up at all. But if all this commercial development is to be welcomed at all, then so should the multiculturalism that usually comes with it.

Foreigners are gonna seep in slowly but surely, I just take that as a fact, and it is an additional reason to lament the presence of racist elements in the city, because there will surely be conflict. And I have no qualms to say that it is those racist elements that should go, not the foreigners. Being a native Pole doesn't mean you can be cruel to non-native Poles, no one has a right to cruelty.

So in the end I don't know what you're problem with me is since I don't want to "engineer" anything. Multi-ethnicity has been a part of Poland's history for a long time. The recent history is an anomaly. Poland's major cities I'm guessing, are on their way to becoming multi-cultural again, because of development, etc. So my sentiments are in tune with the direction things are taking.

I'm not against Polish national identity and Polish culture - this is Poland. But I think it is unfortunate that there are racist elements here, and that they could proliferate unchecked within a homogenous environment. I welcome the trend towards multiculturalism which will bring these racist elements into the spotlight and deal with them. They shouldn't be left to stand so proud.

So Again, what I protest is racism - which is wrong since it causes other people to suffer - if you think this is wrong of me then I can only consider you immoral.

Life / Polish Youth - are they violent? [71]

funny you mentioned the cracovia wisla thing, I just finished watching some documentary about them, pretty sad and pathetic waste of Polish youth.

History / Why has Poland been attacked so often by its neighbors? [180]


Yep that irks the crap out of me too.

And Shelley, hearing stories doesn't mean you lived it, I heard plenty stories, I spoke with Elie Wiesel! But I never came close to living it. that still makes that whole digression about germans tribes occupying polish land irrelevant, same with the whole thing about nordic blood etc. those are just petty trivialities.

I don't see why it concerns him more than it concerns me, he had no input in such affairs, neither did I, so I'd say we both have the same distance relative to that period.

Yeah I don't know your age, the quip about youor prose was a joke Sir, lighten up.

Life / Polish Integration with other Nationalities [150]


I never said the country should or would change overnight, in fact you later quote me as saying the exact opposite.


Immigration brings its own set of problems, but I don't see any disaster in Sweden. That's where my mother lives, things look good in Stockholm. The only country where I can see a problem with multiculturalism is France, where they have issues with their Muslim population, but I'm not knowedgeable in these areas by any means, so please school me if you like.


Well that so many came through Ellis Island is what we usually mean by melting Pot, not just that there are black people. There were problems and for a while Italian, jewish, Russian and Polish immigrants were looked down upon in New York, they all had their day. What does it matter how hispanics got there, they got their and faced the same issues.

And it doesn't matter how blacks in the caribbean got there, the point was that wherever they came from blacks also emigrated to the US during the twentieth century, and that the melting pot status of the US wasn't forced, it just happened.


I never hinted that US was a place of "wonderful diversity where all Americans love one another and show utmost respect to all races" I worked at a civil rights office in New York where I had to deal with cases of police brutality against blacks, Jews being targetd for hate crimes, etc. I know the realities of immigration, but this mostly happens in over-crowded places (like us cities,) I lived in Switzerland for ten years which is pretty diverse, but a lot more harmonious, I don't think there's much overcrowding there. So yeah we have '"rednecks" but you have the equivalent here in Poland too. What's strange is that even though Poland is so homogenous, you still have redneck types, there are racist skinheads, racist hooligans, etc, as if immigration was a problem here - it isn't close to being one.


Well I guess you CAN change the Bronx, many white Students have moved to Harlem, Brooklyn and the Bronx because of sky-high rents, while I'm sure some get robbed everynow and then, no newsworthy problems there. There's a greater risk of black-on-black violence actually, that's why harlem would actually be safer for you than for me. So by moving in and staying is how these neighborhoods become more diverse.

But regardless when did you hear me advocate social engineering? You're just making stuff up, putting words in my mouth, I'm just complaining about racist attitudes here, which is normal, for these should be confronted and resolved somehow. I do it by living here, and being nice and polite to everyone I meet. That works. But I never suggested some forced way to deal with it.

History / Why has Poland been attacked so often by its neighbors? [180]

well of course I wouldn't know what that was like, I was born in 1984! How old are you that you know know so much, your prose seems so youthful!

My topic served a purpose,

1. was to share some impressions as a foreigner
2. was to share some basic things I learned and by starting a discussion learn more
3. Hear what Poles had to say
3. BratwurstBoy's way of making everything german just irks me.

Life / Polish Youth - are they violent? [71]

I like the smell of gasoline, but otherwise I could just go for a bottle of water or coke sold in the gas station kiosque

History / Why has Poland been attacked so often by its neighbors? [180]


If I ever suggested anything to that effect, I apologise that's not what I meant - but Where did I ever say anything like that?

Life / Polish Integration with other Nationalities [150]


Ah, so you're saying that 700$ covers the cost of living in Russia. I don't know about that, news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/in_pictures/7263081.stm.

"Alexei earns 17,000 roubles ($600) a month, but a day's worth of supplies from the supermarket costs him $30. "My wife and I both have to work to make ends meet," Alexei says."

So while I may not know much about economics, I still see that an average salary of $700 a month does not suggest a healthy middle class!


Western Allies left Poland alone (when they shouldn't have,) during WWII and that really backfired. I think some international presence in cities like Warsaw will help make Poland more imposing on the international scene, and vest more international iinterests here. I don't see why youo feel so concerned to keep Poland racially pure. What's it to you that some foreigners come through here? Why shouldn't they be treated with respect? Why should thye be persecuted?

Life / Polish Integration with other Nationalities [150]


Wow I guess you just aren't capable of thinking straight. You were saying that people who complain should just leave the country - that's fascist. I'm saying that to complain is a right, and when people come here they cant help but form opinions about the place, that's human nature if you know anything at all. So why should I leave Poland if I think it's too homogenous? Again, you fail using common sense. I SHOULD STAY! So should other foreigners, and this will help break the trend a bit.


Well that's just not how most of America's diversity came about.
you seem to forget that the greatest influx of foreigners came through Ellis Island during the twentieth century, all the jews, italians, asians, hispanics and caribbean blacks...they weren't forcibly brought there, they migrated there. But as concerns Poland, you can't force diversity, but we get into these debates when guys like you start spewing that whole redneck "love it or leave it" crap whenever people like me make passing comments on the situation here, which is only normal.


I wouldn't follow my girlfriend to Afghanistan, or any other intensely undesirable place, but done a bit of travelling in my life, I know that most stereotypes are just that- stereotypes, and I learned what Poland was like from my girfriend, from what I knew fromm history books and the news, fromm doing research online etc. I'm here now and it's fine, except for a few particulars which I like complaining about. Which is only normal. Nobody likes to be stared at like he's some kind of circus freak, or taunted because he's holding hands with a white girl - and it's only reasonable that I hope for such behavior to change over time.

Life / Polish Integration with other Nationalities [150]


another thing seems that you don't understand the word stereotype. I clearly stated that back where I'm from there were a lot of bad stereotypes about places like Poland and Russia - and you got offended. Why? And what do you mean I didn't do much research about poland besided get the opinions of a few ignoramuses? Do you know how to read and follow a line of thought? I clearly mentioned that those stereotypes were held by people I knew who knew nothing about Poland except for their own personal stereotypes, and therefore would never venture around here.

I clearly stated that I didn't share such views and that that explained why I decided to come here and even live here for a while. So where are you haveing trouble? Are you denying that peoplle have stereotypes? Then you are not very well-rounded my friend, and while the stereotypes may not be true, they do contain a certain basis of truth. Poland WAS pretty bad not that long ago. It's amazing that it has turned around so much. Same with Russia, although I think Russia is still experienceing a lot of problems. Statistically it is worse off then Poland and the rest of Europe. While many Western states may have economic problems, those relate mostly to markets and such, while the general population still enjoys standards that are far beyond what the average russian can expect. The average income is less than $700 a month! So what are you talking about it being better off?

Life / Polish Integration with other Nationalities [150]

Shelley I conclusively refuted your statement which was meant to imply that Russia was some kind of paradise that didn't have to deal with poverty, alcoholism, bad health,etc, no I haven't been to russia and I am not tempted. While I'm sure there are some fine places, and that stereotypes are exagerrated, many Poles here corroborate the stories of low quality of life for workers in Russia, hence the violence, crime, mortality rates, and alcoholism. You're not very in tune to your surroundings.

And if I say that all stereotypes have some basis of truth, it doesn't follow that all african americans are crack-addicts etc. You need to work on your logic.

BUT there is a basis of truth to that. A lot of blacks in New York are normal, well to do, middle class folks, but way too many are wannabee gangstas trying to be as thuggin as can be, selling drugs, engaging in a life of crime, while thinking that it will all be glorified on some multi-platinum LP with their wack rhymes on it. They feed the stereotypes that I and a lot of other young blacks try to break whether I'm in New York or Warsaw.

Life / Polish Youth - are they violent? [71]

I'm not advocating excess regulation, I just mentioned ONE item. If you have drunks wandering the streets late at night, then you close down the liquor stores after a certain hour, very simple!

And New York this New York that, what bothers you about that Grzegorz? I'm trying to come to conclusions by means of comparison. So yeah, in NEW YORK, THIS alcoholism business was a problem, so was prostitution, drugs and things like that, so they closed down most sex shops, put tighter restrictions on alcohol vendors (like making them close earlier) and so it is in NEW YORK, THAT people are much safer and happier in these respects. You can go overboard, and in NEW YORK, THIS has happened with Giuliani when he basically turned the city into a police state. New York this, New York that, yes - very fascinating, very instructive too.

Life / Polish Integration with other Nationalities [150]


Yes Americans are quite ignorant but all stereotypes have a basis of truth.

But the thing you say about russia is hilarious! Tis actually calls for a retraction.

Russia has been ruled by a greedy Oligarchy that's been channelling the wealth of the nation into its pockets, that's why there are some very wealthy people in Russia. Meanwhile, the average population is not so well off. I'll take Wikipedia's diagnostic over yours any day:

"he average Russian life expectancy of 67.7 years at birth is 10.8 years shorter than the overall figure in the European Union.[152] The biggest factor contributing to this relatively low life expectancy for males is a high mortality rate among working-age males from preventable causes (e.g., alcohol poisoning, stress, smoking, traffic accidents, violent crimes)"

The average salary in Russia was $640 per month in early 2008, up from $80 in 2000.[111] Approximately 14% of Russians lived below the national poverty line in 2007,[112] significantly down from 40% in 1998 at the worst of the post-Soviet collapse.

So what the hell are you talking about?

Life / Polish Integration with other Nationalities [150]


Well When I decided to move to Poland, everyone in New York as like "what?? why????" they all thought that it was cold, borderline third-world, and full of vodka drinking slavs, which is a bit like the prevailing opinion of Russia. And they all figured that it would be intolerably racist.

That wasn't my view of Poland, for if it was, I would never have moved here!


And there goes fascism. To complain is a right, and fun one too! That's usually how society progresses, one group complains until their condition is improved, your thinking just totally derailed on that one!

And while interracial communities are not paradises, (New York is no paradise,) neither are homogenous communities, where outsiders trying to experience or learn something new are persecuted, sometimes physically attacked. What kind of behavior is that? One that should be changed no matter who you are!

When Jews in New York complain that some punks sprayed swastikas on their homes, or when black teachers complain because some more punks hang nooses on their door-knobs, Z_Darius would say "well if you don't like it you can get the fvck out!"

I am in awe of your wisdom.

History / Why has Poland been attacked so often by its neighbors? [180]


No you see...I never said Germans are irrelevent to this topic, but your obsession with germans is, meaning the debate you started about where they were thousands of years ago, how nordic they are, etc. I notice you like to make everything about Germany, when I was a bit more interested in the resilience of the Poles

Life / Polish Integration with other Nationalities [150]


Because In Zamosc I've been taunted by the youth, and on the road from zamosc to Warsaw, whenever I stop at a gas station or something, people point at me and make me feel liike a circus freak more than in Warsaw. While I'm sure that in most of these places people go on with their lives without a care in the world about my skin color ,I think it is more likely that I will run into poor groups of indolent youths, with nothing better to do than harass me or beat me up for laughs. And also I forgot to mention that when I'm alone, things aren't too bad, but when I'm ith my girlfriend, a striking Polish national, then that's when young guys in my age group stat trouble.

History / Why has Poland been attacked so often by its neighbors? [180]

How the hell did this thread turn into some kind of old school, pseudo-science about the movements of germanic or slavic tribes? WTF? I know all topics digress into other matters, but if anything more must be said, let's try to stay on track please. Bratwurst, your obsession with german peoples is irrelevant. Start a topic about it if you like.

Life / Polish Integration with other Nationalities [150]

Well the black population is scattered throughout New York, so while the traditionally black neighborhoods are poor, many from those neighborhoods have already, and are still, leaving and settling throughout the city, not just the pretty ones. And while the Bronx is still a bit scary, Harlem has become a popular tourist destination for tons of white people, and many white students move there because the rent (used to be) cheaper. Of course in New York we have the equivalent of guys like you who seem to hate on different races, but that's the exception, not the norm.

I don't want to impose New York conditions upon the whole world. In fact I came to Poland because I wanted a break from New York, only to find that the place where I moved to, Warsaw's centrum, is just another capitalist bastion with modern buildings, etc (which beat the stereotype of Poland we have in New York.)

I would have liked to move to a smaller, more rural town, but the attitudes are too racist for me to bear. Why must it be so? I've been to ancient villages in south of France where the locals treated me kindly, same thing in Spain, Germany, and Switzerland (though it might have been because I was a boy then.) But here there is a very different attitude.

So while I don't want the whole world to look like New York, All I do wish for is for a degree of interracial/cultural accord...I just want some love for everyone!

And I know life isn't all about momney, don't twist my words. But an economically strong country is in your own interest as regards national defense and other things. You don't want to be crushed by your neighbors do you?

Life / Polish Integration with other Nationalities [150]


Lol, so you wouldn't mind an african DIPLOMAT coming here? Why would they come here if all the africans are kicked out? Same with any other minority group you hate on so much.

But then what about all the middle class minorities that could come here and help pump some foreign cash in your economy? I came here with money I made in New York, and poured it all out in cash registers from Zamosc, to Lublin, to Warsaw. Tourism is vital to a country's economy.

Life / Polish Youth - are they violent? [71]

One thing that pisses me off is that whenever there's a holiday and all businness is closed, the only thing open besides gas stations are 24h liquor stores. In New York, liquor stores have to close around 10pm or somethin like that, I think they should introduce that here in Warsaw.

Life / Polish Integration with other Nationalities [150]


You didn't make the difference clear. And if he committed a racial hate crime, that's his problem, again, nothing to do with other black people. You're making a basic logical mistake, so you're just plain wrong, a fact which logic itself makes conclusive so that matter is closed.

However, where does it say that he committed a racial crime? He didn't want to purposely infect white women because he hates white women? He just wanted to have sex, it's a criminal act, but not classifiable as a hate-crime, otherwise they would have charged him for that in court. Perhaps you know something about his case I don't, otherwise we'll just have to assume that you're making stuff up.

And you're spiel about nationalism and all that does nothing for me and therefore has no force. What you're advocating is racial separation, thus leading to conflict along racial lines, thus bringing the prospect of genocidal calamities. Racial Integration seems to work against such evils, over time people learn to live together and prejudices become much weaker as they harmonize together. That's how I see it in New York, in Geneva, and in other interracial communities I've been to.

I mean it just seems that you don't know what you're talking about. You have crack-pot theories that would be fine if they made sense, but again, you just don't know what you're talking about.

Life / Polish Integration with other Nationalities [150]


Another flash of genius from Tomek!

Warsaw for example, is pretty liberal, liberal enough that even though people may stare at me in the streets, and some moronic hooligans might taunt me, most of the average people are actually quite friendly once you get to know them, and seem eager to hear and see something different. So I think the blacks in Poland only "pull suspicion" over themselves in the eyes of the true bigots, (skinheads, hooligans, many senior citizens perhaps?) but the general mass of people are quite fine.


HAHAHA! I thought you were worried that racism would lead to minorities feeling angry, thus developing anti-social behavior? So you advocate separation? You mean kicking out the minorities? What is this supposed to make the minorities happy? They'll be anti-social ten times worse, and then your peaceful country will have a nice little war on its hand, all because of stupid social engineering.

Any developped country will always have a small degree of immigrants, it's just a fact of life on earth. So to stamp out xenophobia and racial prejudice is a must, in order to avoid conflicts.

Life / Polish Integration with other Nationalities [150]


Here is the genius of TOMEK:
All Simon Mols are black(as it happens there is but one Simon Mol, he is black, so the premise is true.)

Therefore

All blacks are Simon Mol.

If that's how you view things then why don't you and I meet up and have a drink? I'm black, but my name is - Jonathan L! If that's how you view things then you failed a basic IQ test question that I know I got right.


Good to hear guy named TOMEK support Nazi ideology, so you support the kind of thinking that led to mass extermination among Poles? If your philosophy takes hold around the world, then you, your family and friends, my friend, will be among the first to go.

So Tomek is apparently completely ignorant as to these facts:

1 - While this Simon Mol guy may have spread Aids like an @$$hole, Whites do the same thing every day in various ways. in 1993, The German department of health fired two senior officials who tried to cover up a fiasco involving HIV infected blood transfusion. Estimates of the number of people infected ranged from 300-1000+

query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9F0CE1DD153CF933A25753C1A965958260

Charles Hadfield was a white man convicted for the criminal transmission of HIV to other women.

A dentist named Dr. David J. Acer was also guilty of the same crime.

Giovanni Mola was tried for infecting his ex-girlfriend with HIV. However, he infected many more as he might have bedded 200 women, and aggressively refused to use condoms.

But regardless of this, it's just common sense that HIV is passed among whites the same way that it is passed among blacks. So should Polish girls refrain from sex with other whites?

2. Tomek is also ignorant to the fact that his "pure blood" philosophy marched its way to Poland and lead to a serious attempt at eliminating the Polish race.

3. We have to assume that Tomek doesn't know that many blacks live in Europe and do fine braving the winters. I lived in Switzerland for 10 years and skiied quite often, New York is even colder in the winter than Switzerland, and all the blacks there do fine.

Life / Polish Integration with other Nationalities [150]


And?? That's just HIS story! Like I said it means nothing as concerns the broader topic of interracial relationships.

Life / What is there to do in Warsaw?? [37]


What's the title? Is it the one mentioned by Randompal?

Life / Polish Youth - are they violent? [71]

What's a real man Southern? And anyways when it comes to b@stards like polish hooligans, don't they only gang up on people? How manly is that? And What do you mean they do not need weapons? google polish hooligans/skin heads, apparently they even carry axes, middle-ages style! So your oracular pronouncements: "Poles are real men.They do not need weapons..." is just random and funny.

And well yeah, some are naturally tough, I'm from New York so I've seen a good deal of hard-knock hard-@sses, and there are some like that here too, but a lot of them look funny, they are super skinny, with funny clothes, funny faces and hair styles, but it's mostly the walk, like a peacock you know what I mean? That's what makes them look like they're trying too hard.

"If you are white,no problem at all.They will invite you to drink with them."

Haha well that's not true, Polish hooligans fight among themselves for example, and they attack various football fans. And then they decide to attack minorities.

Life / Polish Integration with other Nationalities [150]

OMG this is ridiculous. To say that black girls don't mix is just wrong, and therefore completely irrelevant. If you mean that they mix less, then perhaps, many black girls have given me crap for dating white girls, but while there are many black girls like that, there are tons that mix with anyone - where have you been man?Wake up!!!!

And what the hell is this Simon Mol thing supposed to prove? It just proves that some guy named Simon Mol is an ******* - who cares? People get HIV from blacks, whites, asians, latinos, eskimos, needles, (animals?) That one dude's case means nothing concerning mixed relationships - I mean nothing at all. What the smack was that supposed to prove?

Same thing with this Iranian business - I mean do you need a brain transplant??! One, hearsay from some girl means nothing. Two, even if it did, Iranians don't marry other Iranians because they think worse of European women. It's just a cultural thing. It's like jews, you're supposed to marry people with the same customs, religion, etc..

And if Poles don't want to mix racially that's not a crime, but it sure is unfortunate because it can lead to hate crimes, and definitely leads to nice people getting treated like crap, because they happen to look different. Is that something to encourage? And let me tell you that such attitudes aren't in the Pole's interest since it perpetuates the stereotype of Poland as some kind of uncivilized backwater full of drunks. Is that the kind of international reputation any Patriotic Pole should wish on his/her country? I think not

Life / Polish Youth - are they violent? [71]

Haha Shelly why get so defensive, Poles are generally rude, its a fact for those who are able to compare to other countries. I'm from New York, I lived 10 years in Switzerland, I've travelled around, but only heere do people strike me as rude. But that's mostly street manners. Anytime I was invited into someone's home in Poland, they were more accomodating then anywherre else I've been on earth.

And why tell people to leave if they don't like it? What are you trying to become another Stalin? Complaining is a god-given right, a great and fun thing to do. And the fact that Poles don't want to mix racially is not a crime, but it's unfortunate as it can lead to crimes, like hate-crimes. And let me tell you that it's not in your interest to think that way, because it contributes to the stereotype that Poland is some primitive backwater full of uneducated drunks. Is that the kind of international reputation patriotic Poles should encourage? I think not.

History / Why has Poland been attacked so often by its neighbors? [180]

I would say that Poland was just unfortunate to be in the middle of aggressive neighbors, but then look at Switzerland, it's been around for a while, in the middle of all the tyrannical empires that have come and gone...somehow they managed pretty well, and were left alone for the most part.

Life / Polish Youth - are they violent? [71]

I'm from New York, which is no picninc either, but I feel like I know how to carry myself and deal with crap without it escalating too much. Now I'm in Warsaw, and I feel more threatened, whenever I walk around with my girlfriend everybody stares which I've come to expect now, but every now and then there will be a small pack of adolescent or 20-somethings staring in a menacing, dissaproving manner. It makes me really not want to go to clubs or bars here. I was in Zamosc last week-end, my girlfriend and I took a bike ride and a lot of the young people were just ********.

One dude on the beach starting calling my girlfriend honey right in front of me, and then once we got to the forest we saw a group of young guys. As soon as they saw us they were like "YO!" "NIGGA!" "YO MUTHAFUCKA!!" "HAHAH!!" It Would have been a classic moment if I actually were the gangsta thug-type, and I pulled out a gun and shot them.

I guess Warsaw is alright, I mostly hang around the Centrum where I live, although i hear that there are a lot of Hooligans in most of the big cities, and that they are pretty racist.