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Posts by Pan Kazimierz  

Joined: 4 Jul 2009 / Male ♂
Last Post: 8 Aug 2009
Threads: Total: 1 / In This Archive: 0
Posts: Total: 195 / In This Archive: 164
From: PL, Rzeszów
Speaks Polish?: Si, por supuesto.

Displayed posts: 164 / page 6 of 6
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Pan Kazimierz   
8 Jul 2009
History / THEY WOULDN'T LISTEN TO WISE OLD PIŁSUDSKI!!!! [67]

It's true that the British betrayal was not quite so terrible as the earlier Polish one.
Which is not to say that there was no betrayal by Britain, either. The fact that Poland did a terrible thing to the Ukrainians hardly excuses the British with regards to the Polish. It's worth noting that a lot more deaths resulted from the latter.
Pan Kazimierz   
8 Jul 2009
History / "GANGING UP" ON POLAND? [99]

Harry

Well, BK was one of the Polish concentration camps....

But to fulfill the requirements, technically, you'd have to provide at least two.
Pan Kazimierz   
8 Jul 2009
History / "GANGING UP" ON POLAND? [99]

Would you, please, expand on German Kulturkampf and how it was more violent than what Poles did in Ukraine, Bielorus' and Lithuania in 1920-1939. Just show some examples.

Normally, I'd whip out the Davies, but those volumes are currently on loan to a friend, and the free online edition of Volume II has disappeared from Google Books (replaced with a 16-page preview of a newer version, as I finally accepted after an extended web search), so I deeply apologize for having to settle for this half-assed, lame Wikipedia quote:

In Prussia, and later in Germany, Poles were forbidden to build homes, and their properties were targeted for forced buy-outs financed by the Prussian and German governments. Otto von Bismarck described Poles, as animals (wolves), that "one shoots if one can" and implemented several harsh laws aiming at their expulsion from traditionally Polish lands. The Polish language was banned from public, and ethnically Polish children tortured at schools,[19] just for speaking Polish (see: Września). Poles were subjected to a wave of forceful evictions (Rugi Pruskie). German government financed and encouraged settlement of ethnic Germans into those areas aiming at their geopolitical germanisation.[20] The Prussian Landtag passed laws against Catholics.[21]

Of course I don't need to get in to how the Russians were far worse.

Harry

a) Too easy! How many men who fought alongside Polish forces ended up in the interbellum Polish concentration camp? (Or the place-set-up-at-the-suggestion-of-Goering-(who-had-instigated-such-a-c enter-at-Dachau)-where-people-are-held-indefinitely-without-charge-or- trial-and-are-held-70-to-a-cell-and-frequently-tortured-but-this-isn’t -a-concentration’ camp, as you'd no doubt prefer me to describe it).

Not quite:

If you can add a) "Polish concentration camps,"

Pan Kazimierz   
7 Jul 2009
History / "GANGING UP" ON POLAND? [99]

Not quite: the Treaty of Riga violated the Treaty of Warsaw, not the other way round.

Right, thanks. That's what I meant to type (really!), except that I haven't been thinking too well as of late. I can survive harsh training conditions, food rationing, dehydration, heat, exhaustion to the point of muscle failure, any psychological trauma I've ever been exposed to... except lack of sleep. Interrogation would probably fail on me, so long as nobody ever thinks to try extended periods of sleep deprivation. =(

I know that Harry but 2 or 3 years of almost virtual existence - I don't call it much of the country.

Thing is, the Polish government did, and made such recognition clear and binding in the Treaty of Warsaw. The writing was very clear: According to all parties involved, an independent Ukrainian nation existed, with defined borders and a right to sovereignty. The writing was also clear on that no separate peace was to be made by one party to the disadvantage of another. Poland did exactly that, which easily constitutes a very cold, hard betrayal. Whether Poland made this decision before or after the signing of the Treaty of Warsaw (when 'circumstances changed') is a matter of little consequence.

If Harry were putting a misleading twist on the truth, or telling only part of it, I assure you that I'd only be all too ready to call him on it. Because I'm not here to participate in a propaganda war; I'm here to discuss Polish Politics and History, and try to see it done as accurately, informatively, and thoroughly as possible. And while I am a Pole, and I do enjoy reading good things about my country more than I do bad, I also value a harsh truth over a pleasant fantasy. So, let's not argue the facts: Poland signed a treaty with the Ukrainians. They then went back on that treaty in such a way as to screw those people over. Overall, I think, Poland's history presents more favorable an image than most, but it's a fairy-tale Poland which has done no wrong in all its existence.

So, I'm not here 'taking sides' on whatever agenda battles may be happening on these forums at this time, but Harry is definitely right here. There's no question about it. He is correct in judging the Polish violation of the Treaty of Warsaw as a betrayal practically a textbook example of 'betrayal' both de jure and de facto. A Harvard Lit professor couldn't construct what appeared to be an effective argument against this fact.

What I didn't find, though, Harry, was the Polonisation procedure as having been what is well described as 'brutal'. Pretty harsh, yes, and by no means something to be supported, but 'brutal' implies 'violent'. And if I recall correctly (which I think I do, though it's hard for me to keep my eyes - er, think right now), the German kulturkampf and Russia's attempted eradication of Polish culture and identity were far worse during those oft-mentioned 200 years of occupation.
Pan Kazimierz   
7 Jul 2009
History / "GANGING UP" ON POLAND? [99]

Anyway important in that case are circumstances - and they dictate that Poland didn't betray her Ukrainian allies!!!got that?

No, he's right on this one. Violation of the Treaty of Riga was clear beyond doubt.
I'm a bit hazy on those events, so I'll have to look into the 'brutal policy of Polonisation' mentioned, but the 'backstabbing' is pretty clear.
Pan Kazimierz   
5 Jul 2009
History / "GANGING UP" ON POLAND? [99]

Beyond that, I'm even more confused by the 'stabbed their Ukrainian allies in the back' part. 'Stabbed their hostile Ukrainian neighbors' doesn't really fit, either...
Pan Kazimierz   
5 Jul 2009
History / THEY WOULDN'T LISTEN TO WISE OLD PIŁSUDSKI!!!! [67]

Certainly was, as hadn't Poland signed agreements with Nazi Germany, the Soviet Union and then later with Britain and France! This frenetic paper signing might suggest a failure of Polish foreign policy?

Yes, it probably does. A much better foreign policy probably would indeed have been a pre-emptive invasion of Germany.
Pan Kazimierz   
5 Jul 2009
History / "GANGING UP" ON POLAND? [99]

Actually, you forgot the "their Ukrainian allies" part.
Pan Kazimierz   
5 Jul 2009
History / "GANGING UP" ON POLAND? [99]

Harry

OK, as you all asked so nicely, I'll agree with you: Poland is acting perfectly with regard to restitution issues, properties were destroyed, wars were fought, and governments changed multiple times, and that is the perfect justification for refusing to give back anything (such as say the very valuable land the destroyed building once stood on) without much due process to ascertain beyond doubt right of ownership.;

not one single Polish government ever did anything to assist with the holocaust and all the testimony from Poles about Poles assisting is less than coincidental and pales in significance next to said Poles saving the lives of hundreds of thousands of Jews, thus earning first place in 'Righteous Among The Nations', and then later aiding survivors as they fled to Israel to avoid the difficulties of live in a Soviet Satellite;

Fixed.

Poland behaved perfectly when betraying her Ukrainian allies, nicking half their country and operating a brutal policy of Polonisation.

Wait, what? I'm honestly not even sure how to go about this one. It sounds much like the 'Started WWII' one, except much less susceptible to logic. =/
Pan Kazimierz   
5 Jul 2009
History / "GANGING UP" ON POLAND? [99]

I'm not saying that Poland should, that wouldn't be fair. However, Merkel's Germany is not a Nazi regime in my eyes ;) ;)

In the same sense that modern-day Poland is not a Soviet satellite in my eyes. So basically, it seems we agree.

You suggested payments should be made above, PK.

To the contrary, it was my intention to suggest that no payments should be forthcoming. And that just as Poland is not asking for any reparations from Germany at this point, nor should an unrelated (or related) group of Jews ask for the same from Poland whilst keeping a straight face.

Why can't Poland take a clear stand on sth and enforce it THERE AND THEN? Why bicker and whine for many years? Do sth about it!

Sorry... what exactly is it that you are suggesting Poland should do?
Pan Kazimierz   
5 Jul 2009
History / "GANGING UP" ON POLAND? [99]

Because the German government is (was) much more accountable for loss of property in Poland than the Polish government. Which arguably isn't even the same government now as at the time of said events any more than the German government. Which is not to say that the German government should, so late after the fact, pay any such fees... to the contrary, I dare suggest that the concept is laughable, but that the idea of Poland providing reimbursement for these 'displaced peoples' is even more so.
Pan Kazimierz   
5 Jul 2009
History / "GANGING UP" ON POLAND? [99]

I personally agree that Poland should meet the property and monetary demands, but only if Germany paid for them. And the Ukrainians... fine, leave them. Cut contact. No more aid, no more nothing... I'm sure the majority of Polish really wouldn't mind too much.

Otherwise, no, I don't agree that Poland should accept 'a fraction of the guilt' for the Holocaust, or for 'starting WWII'. Surely you, Harry, as a person with at the very least rudimentary knowledge of said history, in fact agree.
Pan Kazimierz   
4 Jul 2009
News / Poland and Germany - Germany unhappy with the present border with Poland? [88]

Sokrates

No its also the army with the highest general standard of training which again is Germany, trooper for trooper our professionals are much better and they proved it multiple times during excersize but a large component of our army is not yet professional.

But our Spec-Ops trump yours. See: GROM.
Further, your military, as I recall, is burdened with horrific size limits of something under half a million. I can't see the countries which insisted on these limits overlooking their violation with Germany as the aggressor. And the burden of holding on to a captured territory? In the WWII days, the acts of blowing things up with Molotov Cocktails or openly assassinating officers that were at first oh-so-frequent were stopped by the reprecussion of wholesale slaughter of the civilian population. Nowadays, I doubt that would fly. Iraq would look look like a training ground for the forces of world powers in comparison, unless I miss my guess and Davies horrificly exaggerates the scale.

But, on to the topic at hand. It is true; the method and consequences of the expulsions of ethnic Germans from the Western lands were terrible. They should be recognized as such, but no more. Those atrocities pale in comparison to those performed by the occupying Germans.

To be fair, recognition and apology for the latter is commonplace. But I still can't see anyone speaking on behalf of Germans demanding a Polish apology for atrocities commited upon civilians with a straight face.