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Posts by sjam  

Joined: 13 Jan 2009 / Male ♂
Last Post: 20 Oct 2009
Threads: Total: 2 / In This Archive: 2
Posts: Total: 541 / In This Archive: 395

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sjam   
2 Jul 2009
History / World War II - a tragic story for Poland and the World [489]

I have as much respect for this communist writer

Czesław Miłosz A communist writer eh?

...After World War II, Miłosz served as cultural attaché of the communist People's Republic of Poland in Paris. In 1951 he defected and obtained political asylum in France. In 1953 he received the Prix Littéraire Européen (European Literary Prize).
In 1960 Miłosz emigrated to the United States, and in 1970 he became a U.S. citizen. In 1961 he began a professorship in Polish literature in the Department of Slavic Languages and Literatures at the University of California, Berkeley. In 1978 he received the Neustadt International Prize for Literature. He retired that same year, but continued teaching at Berkeley.

... Through the Cold War, Miłosz's name was often invoked in the United States, particularly by conservative commentators such as William F. Buckley, Jr., usually in the context of Miłosz's 1953 book The Captive Mind. During that period, his name was largely passed over in silence in government-censored media and publications in Poland.

After his defection Milosz's works were banned in Poland. He continued to write in Polish, but published many works in English. He was given a hero's welcome, when he returned to his native land shortly before he was honored with the Nobel Prize.

In Poland Milozs' moral stand made him a voice of conscience during the Cold War period.

During World War II Milosz was active as a writer in the Resistance movement and witnessed the Holocaust first-hand. His collection of verse, OCALENIA (1945), impressed so the new Communist government that he was appointed junior diplomat as a non-party intellectual.

A communist writer whose books were banned in Poland... surely not... I'd stop waving that red flag ... it'll clash with your face colour :-)))

the use of concentration camp for BK was used by the communists till recently.

and once again:

"... A number of modern non-Soviet sources have also characterized the facility as a concentration camp, including Yale University professor Timothy Snyder, the Library of Congress, and the Polish Nobel prize-winning author Czesław Miłosz."

"... Polish-British historian Tadeusz Piotrowski who also calls it a concentration camp notes that the establishment of the facility was a norm of its times, similar to camps established by Americans for Japanese during WWII, by Canadians for Ukrainians during WWI, and - as also noted by Norman Davies - on a much smaller scale than those projects (not to mention the giant German or Soviet networks of concentration camps)."

Take it up with wiki :-))
sjam   
2 Jul 2009
History / World War II - a tragic story for Poland and the World [489]

From same link:

"... The inspiration for the creation of a detention center in Poland for political prisoners was a visit to Poland by Hermann Göring in 1934, who had instigated such a detention center at Dachau.

... Undoubtedly, the originator (of Bereza Kartuska) was Polish Prime Minister, prof. Leon Kozlowski, who was influenced by the increasing popularity of the German and Italian fascist movements, and especially the views of J. Goebbels, who wrote about the educational role of the concentration camps in Germany."
sjam   
1 Jul 2009
History / 1940 massacre of Poles remains potent issue [35]

i just don't understand the banging on and on and on

IMO one big difference between those living in the "west" and those in former communist countries is that these countries have only really had 20 years to freely (and "freely" is the key word) "bang on" about their history particulary of WWII and to start to fill in all those "blank pages" surpressed by the communist regime. Whereas the "west" has had circa 40 years head start to get all that "banging on" out of the way and consequently have in many cases, such as Germany, come to terms with their role in the history of WWII. For Poland, this is evident by the explosion in the numbers of books published in Poland about Poland in WII since the collapse of the communism.

There was no foreigners working at Bletchley Park

Indeed. The Polish team made it to France after the September defeat with French help. It then worked fruitfully with Bletchley Park, albeit at a distance, until the Fall of France. Indeed the Poles were remarkably effective between January and June 1940. Thereafter, the French refused to allow the Poles to go to England and sadly, owing to turf battles between the French and the British, the Poles’ talents were subsequently never fully employed during the war. Furthermore, the Polish émigré authorities seemed unaware of the extraordinary trump card that they had in their hand and they too failed to take full advantage of the cryptanalytical team’s skills.

The Polish team remained hidden in Vichy France and continued to work on breaking German codes. However, the Bletchley Park boffins, with Alan Turing as their star, as well as the Americans and their superior financial and technical resources, were now making all the running. They were, for instance, able to produce extensive numbers of ‘bombes’, which were a more sophisticated version of the earlier Polish version. When the Poles did eventually reach England in 1943, they were not invited to work at Bletchley Park and spent the rest of the war breaking relatively low-level German codes.

Interestingly enough, neither the existence of Bletchley Park nor the Poles’ role in breaking the Enigma machine came to light until the 1970s, so well had the secret been kept by all those involved. Hence, Winston Churchill’s memorable description of the codebreakers as ‘the geese that laid the golden eggs, but never cackled’.

Here's a thing: Don't know if any of the 10 Polish-made Enigmas that were buried in a field by the fleeing Polish Cipher Bureau on Bulgarian frontier have ever been rediscovered? Each would be worth a considerable fortune!!!
sjam   
1 Jul 2009
History / World War II - a tragic story for Poland and the World [489]

show that most of the inmates deserved death for their "activities"

That is what the Nazis also believed for those held in their concentration camps.

And presumably the British believed the same of prisoners in "our" concentration camps in South Africa during the Boer war and again in Malaya during the communist insurgency of the late 1940's—BTW the British were also responsible for beheading many Chinese communist insurgents during the same period. Happy to discuss British concentration camps when relevant.

you should consider when writing crap here and elswhere.

That crap Nobel prize-winning Polish author Czesław Miłosz agrees with describing the facility (Bereza Kartuska) as a concentration camp... along with other more notable people :-)

Sjam is here only to drop a "bomb" they wont pick up anything uncomfortable

A troll with a bomb :-)) But I might blow myself up? If only eh ... boom:-)))
sjam   
30 Jun 2009
History / World War II - a tragic story for Poland and the World [489]

Sjam,

You are just as selective as Harry. From your link, the heading that you deliberatrly omitted for the upteenth time:

Acutally not. I gave the Wiki link which you read.

As to detention camp; internment camp or concentration camp?

You missed a clue in my post: Bereza Kartuska Controversy

Here you see it?

Bereza Kartuska Controversy:

"... A number of modern non-Soviet sources have also characterized the facility as a concentration camp, including Yale University professor Timothy Snyder, the Library of Congress, and the Polish Nobel prize-winning author Czesław Miłosz."

Some like you choose to call it a detention camp whereas some notable people choose to use concentration camp.

"...OUN members who were incarcerated at Bereza Kartuska have testified to the use there of torture. There were frequent beatings (with boards being placed against inmates' backs and struck with hammers), forced labor, constant harassment, the use of solitary confinement without provocation, punishment for inmates' use of the Ukrainian language."

Substitute just a couple of words to read thus:

"...Poles who were incarcerated at KZ Sachsenhausen have testified to the use there of torture. There were frequent beatings (with boards being placed against inmates' backs and struck with hammers), forced labor, constant harassment, the use of solitary confinement without provocation..."

Both perfect descriptions of a concentration camp!

I mean that few Poles fought against the Red Army after it entered Poland.

Do you mean against the Polish 1st and Polish 2nd Army which was fighting alongside the Red Army or just the Red Army? Or the AK, NSZ or any other Polish unit involved in armed actions against the Polish 1st and 2nd Armies as they entered Poland?
sjam   
30 Jun 2009
History / World War II - a tragic story for Poland and the World [489]

Bereza Kartuska Controversy:

"... A number of modern non-Soviet sources have also characterized the facility as a concentration camp, including Yale University professor Timothy Snyder, the Library of Congress, and the Polish Nobel prize-winning author Czesław Miłosz."

"... Polish-British historian Tadeusz Piotrowski who also calls it a concentration camp notes that the establishment of the facility was a norm of its times, similar to camps established by Americans for Japanese during WWII, by Canadians for Ukrainians during WWI, and - as also noted by Norman Davies - on a much smaller scale than those projects (not to mention the giant German or Soviet networks of concentration camps)."

"... The number of deaths in detention was kept artificially low by releasing prisoners who were in poor health."

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bereza_Kartuska_Detention_Camp
sjam   
29 Jun 2009
History / World War II - a tragic story for Poland and the World [489]

attempt to live as a full human.

I prefer my rather full life of a troll thanks—especially with so many Polish babies here to feed on ;-)

Poles ran extermination camps

Polish extermination camps as characterised by Germans extermination camps? Undeniably—no.

Polish internment and concentration camps? Undeniably—yes.
sjam   
29 Jun 2009
History / 1940 massacre of Poles remains potent issue [35]

A final point: Maybe Wajda got the message out on this site, but his mesage stayed in the Polish community.

Wajda's "Katyn" was never made for anyone other than a Polish audience, whether at home or abroad. If Wajda wanted to get the message out he would have shot an English language (not subtitled or dubbed) version for a mainstream American audience who do not watch subtitled movies-period. BTW the average American reader will even treat a book written in English English as opposed to US English as a "foreign" work (unless translated) and will often or not not purchase it-as a UK publisher this is a constant bug-bear (and expense) I have come across for most of our titles for sale in US market.

The "ME issue?" I

[M]iddle [E]ast?
sjam   
27 Jun 2009
History / 1940 massacre of Poles remains potent issue [35]

'In Prague, big red posters were put up on which one could read that seven Czechs had been shot today. I said to myself, 'If I had to put up a poster for every seven Poles shot, the forests of Poland would not be sufficient to manufacture the paper.'

Hans Frank, Governor-General of occupied Poland
1940 interview in the Völkischer Beobachter
sjam   
27 Jun 2009
History / 1940 massacre of Poles remains potent issue [35]

The use of a German pocket pistol, which was commonly carried by Nazi intelligence agents, also provided plausible deniability of the executions if the bodies were discovered later.

This sentence is just the wiki author's speculation!
At the time of the executions the Soviets could not have foreseen the Nazi invasion of USSR or subsequent events that followed in the years after the executions which led to the discovery of the NKVD's mass graves. So there was no need to stage-set for future discoveries of mass executions.

He had brought a briefcase full of his own Walther pistols, since he did not trust the reliability of the standard-issue Soviet TT-30 for the frequent, heavy use he intended.

Blokhin 'the beast' was simply using the best tools he had available for the job, not wondering about whether his work was going to be discovered in the foreseeable future.
sjam   
27 Jun 2009
History / 1940 massacre of Poles remains potent issue [35]

In October 2007, Russia's most popular newspaper published, without a dissenting view, a Soviet general's denial of the Soviet Union's hand in the death of the Poles. He termed the mass graves "a German provocation."

"The Germans destroyed them," Valentin Varennikov, who died this month, was quoted as saying. "And then at gunpoint the same Germans forced several Russians to write statements that the Poles were allegedly shot by the NKVD."

latimes
sjam   
25 Jun 2009
History / World War II - a tragic story for Poland and the World [489]

Bzibzioh, next you'll including the entire population of wartime Poland of what? Some 20+(?) millions I don't know :-))

Just compare that with the tiny British Army of the time.

You fail to take into account all those armed forces from the British Empire & Commonwealth as they joined Britain in declaring war on Germany for Poland's cause; just how many countries and service men do you think this included ???? I have no idea but am sure you can find this out?

But at least you have seem to have at last accepted "the facts" that Poles (from London and Warsaw) were invited to take part in the London victory parade!
sjam   
25 Jun 2009
History / World War II - a tragic story for Poland and the World [489]

They had a moral obligation to honor those Polish soldiers who fought with them and for them.

I have repeatedly stated that IMO the British were less than honourable, Churchill in particular, in his dealings with the Poles, and especially Anders, after Tehran. However the British government did redress the balance to some small degree despite fierce opposition from within its own F.O. some M.P.s; a significant part of the British public, and Labour Unions; and against the demands of the Warsaw government:

However, the fact that the British government did not enact the forcible post-war repatriation of all Poles back to communist Poland (as some sections of F.O. wanted to do) and allowed some 200,000+ Polish servicemen, women along with some of their familes to resettle in Britain after the war was small consolation but it was some. We could argue forever and a day if this was enough—but IMO it was nowhere near enough.

So now we are going to discuss numbers?

May I remind you that it was you who discussed the numbers, you said 15 as not being enough "out of millions" of Poles. "Out of millions" being totally ludicrous! So if its not about numbers then the "inconvenient facts" (for you) remains that former members Polish Forces of the West (and those from Warsaw) were invited to the London victory parade 1946. End of.
sjam   
24 Jun 2009
History / World War II - a tragic story for Poland and the World [489]

It appears that you are trying desperately to broaden the topic. So ones more, because I'm patient woman: I'm not discussing Soviet Poles;

Let's narrow it down to this simple sentence again and if you still can't get it then more fool you.

After the British Government decided to switch its recognition from the Polish Government-in-exile in London to the Polish Provisional Government in Warsaw, it no longer felt obliged to invite the armed forces of the exiled Government to the victory parade that was to be held in London in 1946. Instead it asked Warsaw to send its men to attend...

As to there being millions of Poles in Britain in 1946 this is plainly more nonsense. Millions indeed--there are not even millions of Poles in Britain today... although Ealing sometimes feels like Lodz to me!!
sjam   
24 Jun 2009
History / World War II - a tragic story for Poland and the World [489]

Poland as a poor victim of the nasty British.

IMO Poles were victims of not just the British and other Allies but also of the London Polish-government-in-exile and the fact it lacked any cohesion and unified vision for the Polish nation and thus became powerless to affect the outcome of the position it found itself in.

There are few voices that question the London based Polish-government-in-exile and how IMO it actually contributed to Poland's post-war fate. The only person that seemed to see the light before his untimely death was Sikorski (and his adviser Rettinger) who postulated settlement with the USSR and a post-war Poland with revised borders East (Curzon) and West (Oder-Neisse) along similar lines as they are today—good reason for some Polish factions to want rid of Sikorksi... if anyone did, that is ;-)

For those that are interested:

Poland's Place in Europe: General Sikorski and the Origin of the Oder-Neisse Line, 1939-1943
Sarah Meiklejohn Terry
Publisher: Princeton University Press
Pub. Date: February 1983
ISBN-13: 9780691076430
sjam   
24 Jun 2009
History / World War II - a tragic story for Poland and the World [489]

sjam:
Your editing out of the "inconvenient facts" of my post does alter the facts; they remain thus:

We are NOT talking about Soviet Poles and parade in Moscow. At least I'm not. So I'm editing accordingly.

The "inconvenient facts" you edited out of my quote relates to Poles and the parade in London NOT Moscow:

... After the British Government decided to switch its recognition from the Polish Government-in-exile in London to the Polish Provisional Government in Warsaw, it no longer felt obliged to invite the armed forces of the exiled Government to the victory parade that was to be held in London in 1946. Instead it asked Warsaw to send its men to attend...

Just in case you miss it:
Instead it asked Warsaw to send its men to attend...

... The delegation from Warsaw never arrived. Warsaw's military attaché in London, Colonel Kuropieska, was never told why his superiors had decided not to attend....

It appears to me that these "inconvenient facts" seem just too hard for you to swallow ?
sjam   
23 Jun 2009
History / World War II - a tragic story for Poland and the World [489]

Keep on splitting the hairs while the fact remains:

Your editing out of the "inconvenient facts" of my post does alter the facts; they remain thus:

Instead it asked Warsaw to send its men to attend...

Just in case you miss it:
Instead it asked Warsaw to send its men to attend...

Britain asked the recognised government of Poland to send representatives of its armed forces to attend the victory parade in London, 1946. The Warsaw government chose not to do so.

IMO the British government behaved dishonourably not in 1946 but in its dealings with the Polish government-in-exile and the Polish Forces of the West after Tehran when Churchill was constantly assuring Anders that Poland's freedom and sacrifice would not be "forgotten' in the post-war world. This was the Western allies moment of shame.

However, the fact that the British government did not enact the forcible post-war repatriation of all Poles back to communist Poland (as some sections of F.O. wanted to do) and allowed some 200,000+ Polish servicemen, women along with some of their familes to resettle in Britain after the war was small consolation but it was some. We could argue forever and a day if this was enough—but IMO it was nowhere near enough.
sjam   
22 Jun 2009
History / World War II - a tragic story for Poland and the World [489]

"The 303 squadron was the only Polish unit invited and in the most tepid manner. It rightlfully declined its very limited invitation because the invitation was not extended to any other Polish units which were not invited."
That certainly gives a full reading to what I stated.

angelfire.com/ok2/polisharmy/chapter1.html

... After the British Government decided to switch its recognition from the Polish Government-in-exile in London to the Polish Provisional Government in Warsaw, it no longer felt obliged to invite the armed forces of the exiled Government to the victory parade that was to be held in London in 1946. Instead it asked Warsaw to send its men to attend...

Just in case you miss it:
Instead it asked Warsaw to send its men to attend...

... to give the Soviets credit, when they held their victory parade in Red Square, representatives of the 1st and 2nd Polish Armies were invited to attend and marched alongside the victorious Red Army...

... the British press took up the issue, so the British Government relented and invited a delegation from the Polish Air Force to take part. The airmen who, no doubt would have wanted to march, declined the invitation as the British had not invited the Polish Army or the Navy...

... The delegation from Warsaw never arrived. Warsaw's military attaché in London, Colonel Kuropieska, was never told why his superiors had decided not to attend....

... Even as late as 1984 and the 40th Anniversary of the D-Day landing, the Poles were not invited to take part. Although the British Government had changed its political complexion, the commemoration was turned into a strictly NATO event...

Maybe because also in 1946, British public opinion was turning against the Poles in Great Britain thanks to the socialist/labour press propaganda.

"Count Raczynski sent the following note to the FO saying that someone was printing and then distributing them in the Fife area.

ATTENTION ! ATTENTION !
Your Home and Job
demands that You
STOP POLISH INVASION NOW
--------
STAND EASY and
You've "Had it Chum"
sjam   
22 Jun 2009
History / World War II - a tragic story for Poland and the World [489]

We very much regret that Polish contingents did not take part in the victory parade. ......

I think you will agree that; "We very much regret that Polish contingents did not take part in the victory parade" is not quite the same thing as "We very much regret that Polish contingents were not invited to take part in the victory parade"?
sjam   
22 Jun 2009
History / World War II - a tragic story for Poland and the World [489]

Victory Parade 8 June 1946

The relevant British Government files are:

HO 45/20688 (War) 1945-1946 Victory Celebrations
HO 45/20689 (War) 1945-1946 Victory Celebrations
HO 45/20690 (War) 1945-1946 Victory Celebrations
HO 326/78 .. 1946 Victory Celebrations; report on the Victory Parade 1946; miscellaneous papers
WO 32/12418 (Code 27c) 1946-1947 Victory Parade 1946
WORK 21/203 .. 1945-1946 Victory Celebrations, including report
sjam   
19 Jun 2009
News / Petition the Prime Minister to Recognise the contribution of Polish Armed Forces [49]

Norman Davies disagrees with you.

So be it. I would not dare argue against Norman Davies :-))

Now, you would interpret that as Poles don't want Poles to participate in a parade because Poles were fighting against Poles.

I would go further in that those Poles who did not want Poles to particpate were not considered Poles at all by those Poles that were not asked; these Poles considered those Poles as traitors just as those Poles considered the other Poles Hitlerite anti-communist recationaries who were instigating a traitorous campaign against the Poles that didn't want to take part in the parade if these Poles were invited because .... :-)
sjam   
19 Jun 2009
News / Petition the Prime Minister to Recognise the contribution of Polish Armed Forces [49]

From previous link: angelfire.com/ok2/polisharmy/chapter1.html

To Return To Poland Or Not To Return

"...As the mood of anger and indignity rose - many saw the invitation of Warsaw's people as the ultimate insult to the Poles in the West - and the British press took up the issue, so the British Government relented and invited a delegation from the Polish Air Force to take part. The airmen who, no doubt would have wanted to march, declined the invitation as the British had not invited the Polish Army or the Navy."

The reason Britain did not originally invite the Polish Forces of the West was because the Warsaw government did not want its forces taking part in any parade with the "Hitlerite anti-communist reactionary" Polish forces under Anders whom it was still fighting against in Poland. Britain had already formally derecognised the Polish-government-in-exile based in London in favour of the communist Polish government based in Warsaw.
sjam   
18 Jun 2009
News / Petition the Prime Minister to Recognise the contribution of Polish Armed Forces [49]

For anyone that is interested the Polish Forces War Memorial being constructed at the National Memorial Arboretum in Staffordshire, England is on schedule to be unveiled by Duke of Kent on 16th September 2009.

PolishForcesMemorial.com
There are already around 2,500 invited guests from Polish veteran groups, the MoD etc and there will be a fly-over by Lancaster bomber and Spitfire from the Battle of Britain. We are also producing a book about the Polish contribution to allied victory in WII-sales of which will help with ongoing site memorial maintenance.