Life / How much do you HATE POLISH PEOPLE and POLAND [1260]


Dude, where has he been for the last 500 years?

History / Where do Polands non Jewish victims go? [64]

As a Polish Catholic, I'm no stranger to the lack of recognition for Poland's gentiles suffering during the war and Holocaust, and I'm pleased to see the strong convictions to remedy that being expressed on this site, but what concerns me is the level of separatism and devision that I'm also hearing. I feel that we all suffered, Poles and Christians, in fact, nearly the whole world suffered. Who cares "who suffered more?" One of the many horrible points of the Holocaust was to divide people and to sort people into categories. Let's not continue that now that the horror is over.

I know Polish gentiles just want recognition, and I'm all for that believe me, and I certainly know that this is a touchy subject from all sides, but let's not attack each other over who hurts the most. I'm not directing this at anyone in particular and I applaud nearly all the opinions on this thread (within reason) as valid, but it's important to remember that while Polish gentiles had to suffer under forced Communism for a further 50 years after the gas chambers were destroyed, they were still allowed to exist, something that Polish Jewry for the most part, was not.

History / Where do Polands non Jewish victims go? [64]

One of history's greatest travesties is that Poland's suffering during the war is swept under the rug. It's important that we remember the Jewish victim's of the Holocaust but to spread the idea that Poles were sitting back drinking tea watching it all happen is rubbish. And I feel that, in America at least, this is a common conception. I was certainly taught this way.

To the point of the post, I do not believe that Poles should be lumped into the Holocaust. The Holocaust is pointedly Jewish. The point of Hitler's murder machine was to destroy Jews, Poles were collateral damage. There is no doubt that Hitler and Stalin colluded to murder Poles, but this should be held seperate. There should be mentions in Holocaust Museums, but, despite the numbers, it is with Jews, not Poles, that the severity of the hatred is directed.


If find this point to be small-minded. I've already stated that the Holocaust is a Jewish phenomena, but the think that the pain that was launched at one sector of Polish society was not felt by the other is absurd. The Holocaust was forced onto Poland and its people, to think that Polish Jewry and Polish gentiles were not intertwined into this senseless violence is irresponsible. The hatred and death of the Holocaust, while decidely turned on Jews, was burdened by all of Poland.

Travel / Poland is becoming too expensive to visit. It is a nice country, but [46]


I can nearly guarantee that.

Travel / Poland is becoming too expensive to visit. It is a nice country, but [46]

Thanks for your opinion. We'll keep that in mind. In short, what's in your shirt? I'm sure Poland is pleased to know that you won't be stopping by again. Tell me when you're in Mexico so I can be sure to avoid traveling there.

USA, Canada / Polish People in St. Louis [2]

There are more than a few Poles in St. Louis, it being a good ol' Catholic town. I used to live there and some of my family is still there, it's one of America's great cities. There is a Polish church downtown called St. Stanislaus Kostka Chucrh at 1413 N. 20th St. There's a great site borawski.net/polishstlouis] - here that lays out quite a bit of the Polish organizations and clubs in the Lou. Also, if you go to Busch Stadium downtown and look in the front you'll see a giant statue of a Polish man.

[upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/d/dd/Musial_statue.JPG/450px-Musial_statue.JPG] - Here.

History / Poland Betrayed in WW2 [243]

Interesting, szkotja2007. I hadn't heard that before. Makes you think. I'd like to believe the book, but alas, what can you believe nowadays? Next, you'll be telling me Wojtech the Soldier Bear is made up.

History / Poland Betrayed in WW2 [243]


It certainly is incredible, but I've never heard that it's made-up. What are you basing this on?

Life / How do Polish people view themselves? [92]

I feel with Polish people, especially abroad, it's not that we believe we're superior or that Poland is better than any other nation, it's just that Poland, while important historically, is very ignored in today's political/cultural atmosphere. I'm speaking from an American perspective but where comparable immigrant groups like Irish and Italians are celebrated and focused on (if you don't believe me, remind yourself what day next Monday is), Poland is like another planet that nobody knows about. Often times, I've gone too far with my "Polishness" for this reason. It's not that were arrogant (or at least I try not to be) its just that we are proud to be Polish, even if nobody else cares.

Life / I'm an American who lived in Poland for 6 years. I'm not welcome anymore. [169]


I think icypole's point is that when Poles came here, they were allowed in openly (as were all Europeans) but the often they were treated poorly by the populace, being called "dumb Polaks" and so forth. This happened to the Irish and Italians as well.

News / What do Polish friends think of Barack Obama and Hillary Clinton? [226]


I hope you're right, Dice, but history is not on your side on this one. America is horribly racist and sexist. I like Obama but I'm not sure the nation is ready for a Black president. I pray that I'm wrong.


I'm with you Julie, but I'm afraid there's been too much ugliness between the two of them. Clinton with here disgusting assertions of Obama being a Muslim, Obama firing back. All this infighting is just weakening the Democrats cause, so much that a "dream ticket" of Obama/Clinton or vice versa seems like a pipe dream. The Dems need to get together, pick a candidate and move on to taking on McCain. If people don't think McCain has a chance, they are dreaming. Republicans ALWAYS campaign better than Dems.


I don't know if we should be "thankful" for the murder and forceful relocation of millions of people.

News / Polish leader promises compensation for confiscated propery in Poland [17]

Good for Tusk. I don't know where the money is going to come from, but this is a positive step towards healing.

History / Poland Betrayed in WW2 [243]

Poland can't forget. We won't let it. We are a nation that knows what it's like to not exist. This is a terrible burdon on a phsyche. People have moved on, but they are guarded because while Poland is free now, there have been times when her freedom has been taken from here. Poles prominently focus on the positives of Poland and being Polish, but when the country has stood as the battle ground for so many European contests there are aspects that always stay with you.

History / Poland Betrayed in WW2 [243]

Katyn is just the tip of the iceberg, celinski. Stalin might have killed more Poles than any other man. Just terrible. The Kruk, I've got a list of good books but it's not with me I can get you a pretty good list in a few hours though, they are out there. Off the top of my head, there is a fascinating book called "The Long Walk" by Slavomir Rawicz which is a memoir of a Polish calvary officer who was sent to Siberia during WW2 and how he and some others escaped. It's an absolute great read. It's not an overall history of Poland under Stalinism but it's a little microcosm of the terror. Also, I can't recommend "God's Playground" by Norman Davies highly enough. It's greatest Polish history book in English. The Polish version is used as a textbook in many Polish schools now. It's fair, objective, and accurate. Again, it isn't simply about Stalinism but it goes into that period in detail.

History / WW2: Britain Declares War on Germany to Save Poland [290]


Well, Poles didn't seem to have much trouble fighting for Britian all during World War II. There were many Polish squadrons that fought for Britain and in Britain, as well as Polish troops that fought for other countries. Listen, I'm not knocking England but to say that the UK did Poland a big favor by declaring war on Germany is a bit much. It's arguments like this that tear me up:


Oh, I'm so sorry to inconveinance you while Poland was getting systemically destroyed from both East and West. How terrible for us to have "dragged" Britain into this war that saw one out of every 5 Poles killed. How selfish of us. Look, I'm American and the USA did just as bad a job of letting an ally fight for herself against two superpowers, and tornado, all those points you mentioned are valid. I don't blame England for not wanting to take on Germany, Poland didn't want to either. I mean, in the end, we were all fighting on the same side, but I don't want to be told that the great Western liberators kept Poland afloat when they didn't. All those paper leaflets during the Warsaw Rising did us a heap of good, thanks.

News / What do Polish friends think of Barack Obama and Hillary Clinton? [226]


It's "safe" to say that ALL black people would vote for a crackhead simply because he's black? I wonder what would be considered an "unsafe" assumption.

News / What do Polish friends think of Barack Obama and Hillary Clinton? [226]

I pray you don't get too bold, szczery, suggesting that you know what all Blacks will and will not do. Dangerous business.

History / Some names to the faces of brave Poles during WW2 German Invasion [24]

Terrible but great read, Julie. Such suffering, but important to know. Thanks for posting.

Life / What people from Poland know about South America? [15]

Poles and South Americans have a linked history. Of course, Napoleon sent his Polish forces to the Dominican Republic to fight of the rebels, and many Poles ended up joining the rebels cause (if they didn't die of malaria first). In Brazil, there are many Poles in Parana, Rio Grande do Sul, and Catarina. The Poles of these regions sent volunteer armies to Europe to fight for Poland in both WWI and WWII.

History / Poland Betrayed in WW2 [243]

Well the book is an all around history of Poland (the ABSOLUTE best English language Polish history book. It's author, Norman Davies is the premiere English speaking Polish historian, he has a few books on Poland but "God's Playground" is the comprehensive overview) it's very dry (it's basically a text book, after all) and hard to come by (if your Borders has it, it's probably only the second volume which is 1795-Present, the first volume is Origins-1795 and is very hard to come by) but it is an exhaustive study of the history of Poland and is completely objective (written by an Englishman) it gives credit where it is do and points out myths and faults when they are present. A easier, more pro-Polish history book is "The Polish Way" by Adam Zamoyski. I also enjoyed reading "The Poles" by Steven Stewart, which is an excellent history of the Solidarity Period with historical references dropped in, but good luck finding that one, I'm sure it's out of print. But, if your only question is Polish America, "Gods Playground" only spends a few paragraph's on that subject, I'd much rather just type out the paragraphs here than have you spend 30 bucks for a little illumination.

History / Poland Betrayed in WW2 [243]

First of all, thank you, matthias, I've really enjoyed being on the forum. It gives me great joy to keep my finger on the pulse of Polonia abroad as well as in Poland. In reference to you puzzlement of Polish-Americas political insignificance, I think a lot of it has to do with the political turmoil of Poland over the last 200 years when Poles were moving to America in mass numbers. A generation of Poles like the ones in my family who moved here in the 1870's would be completely different from the millions of displaced persons who came here after WWII. Each generation has different political goals and needs, there is no binding tie other than being Polish. Our contributions have been cultural and scientific but because of our inability to get along with each other they have not been political. Also, distance and language barriers which exist for Polish immigrants and not for Latinos or Irish immigrants should be taken into consideration. If anyone has the wonderful book "Gods Playground" by Norman Davies, the chapter in the second Volume entitled "The Polish Emigration" has a section on the disunion of Polish America. It does a better job at explaining than I do.

News / How to call non-Poles ? [32]

Non-Poles? I call them unfortunate beings.

History / Poland Betrayed in WW2 [243]

For my part, I'm a member of the Polish American Congress in Southern California. Our goals are meagre at best, we don't have a lot of political clout but one of our main objectives, which is the committee I'm on, is to have Polish history taught a little better in American schoolbooks. Polish history is nearly ignored in American schools. Our objective is NOT to supersede American history or British History or French History (all of which are understandably more relevant to American history) but to add a little more about Poland than "On September 1, 1939 Germany invaded Poland and conquered it in two weeks." The End. I took a AP course (AP, in case you don't know means Advanced Placement, in American high schools it is the equivalent of a college course) in European History from 1200-Present and Poland was scarcely mentioned with zero, I repeat ZERO mention of the partitions. This is irresponsible.

Life / What people from Poland know about South America? [15]

I'm a Polish-America and I would say of the 7 continents, I know the least about South America (except for Antarctica, of course). That's not to say I don't know much, I had a few friends who visited Argentina and Brasil and they had a fabulous time. It's a very beautiful area with a rich and ancient history. I feel South America, like Africa, often doesn't get the status it deserves.

History / How long was Poland "lost in history"? [21]

You could even argue that Poland has been lost to history even before the partitions in the late 18th century. Everyone is familiar with Poland's suffering in the Second World War but how many know of its history before that. Poland was one of the most powerful nations of Europe for 700 years and all this is forgotten because of the 123 years it didn't exist. People think of Russia and Germany as "historic powers" but few know that Poland predates both of those empires. There is a western assumption that Poland has always toiled under the yoke of outside governments but there was a time when Poland control its own and other's destinies. This has been lost to history.

News / Do you think that Polish catholics resent the new German Pope? [108]

Bravo, Julie. I don't think there's anything wrong with Poles having a special place for JPII that no other man or Pope can replace. He meant so much to Poland, for us there is John Paul II and then there is every other Pope. No disrespect, but JPII is on a different level.

Life / Grafitti in Warsaw [44]

Right, I'm glad we understand each other...

News / Do you think that Polish catholics resent the new German Pope? [108]

Well put, matthias. I wouldn't dream of disregarding Pope Benedict simply because he's German. But Poles, who in an inconsistent political landscape have always been consistently Catholic, had so much pride in John Paul II. Let us not forget that Solidarity might not have happened if it weren't for the elation and national pride that swelled with the Pope's election and visit in the late '70's. Polish Catholicism have survived three partitions, Nazism, and Soviet Communism, all that were out to destroy it. The Vatican, itself, abandoned Poland a few times, and yet it survived. It's not that we RESENT the German Pope, its just that John Paul II meant so much to us.

Life / Grafitti in Warsaw [44]

My point with the links was that you seem to only dislike graffiti because of where it is conveyed, those were options to change its venues. I think you make great assumptions when you equate violent crimes (which are destructive) with graffiti (which is, at its core, creative). As I've already noted that I don't support private vandalization and for a myriad of other reasons, I won't post my or anyone else's address here. However, as it doesn't appear either of us can convince each other of our point of view, we'll have to agree to disagree, my only request would be to be wary of suppressing expression, no matter how invalid you may perceive it to be. With suppression, often nonviolent "criminals" can become violent criminals.

Life / Grafitti in Warsaw [44]

If you dislike it on public property but have no problem with the form or tone of the work than support organizations that create sanctioned areas and venues for these people to express themselves that wont mess with your precious overpasses. Here are a few:

graffitiresearchlab.com
urbanartwarfare.com/blog/
urbanartnetwork.com/pdx/