Life / Polish attitudes towards drinking alcohol [72]


You have made some valid points but this comment is ridiculous. Do you really want the government to run your life, decide about your children future? Nobody else but parents are responsible for their children.

Beside of that I have seen some statistics and Poland in comparison with other natiuons looks really good as far as consumption of alcohol is concentrated. Vodka was replaced by bear. Young people indeed drink more than average Pole, stupid custom and stupid parents.

Life / A Polish Priest lying about freemasons [57]


I'm so impressed, this must be the greatest success in your life. Shame on my family.


You will become the perfect example of 'wykształciuch', paper means nothing, knowledge is valued.

Life / A Polish Priest lying about freemasons [57]


I haven't wrote anything like that but as far as economy is concentrated this is correct.


Your problem is that you don't really want to learn about the subject and even if I would put evidence on your nose, you would still did not notice. I know that in the US they don't teach much of history of Europe but if you would want you could do it a bit on your own. Same fact that the church oppose masonry does give you an idea that they must have some reason to do it.

btw Those who want to discuss unrelated topics should really open new threads.

History / Poland-Russia: never-ending story? [1341]


Could you please provide a link to these security guaranties from the EU? Or this is just psychological barrier?

Life / A Polish Priest lying about freemasons [57]


You have no respect to the greatest British politician in the recent history. If you want to discuss mentioned issues you need to start new thread.

Life / A Polish Priest lying about freemasons [57]


LOL


Respect for Maggie!

Life / A Polish Priest lying about freemasons [57]



Socialist envy in the purest form! LOL

You people are like those poor peasants who prefer your rich neighbor to lose all its cows instead work to improve your own herd. Envy does killing your mind, you lose all objectivity, you are out of touch with reality. How typical mindset it is for a socialist, I know that you think more about other people money. A little advice, please keep your hands and mind as well out of my cash and other people who willingly donate for a church or anything else. Can you?


Still if you seat in the US and don't even speak Polish according to your profile then your possibilities to observe situation in Poland is very limited. Personally I don't belong to apologists of everything what is going on in Poland, this is even opposite, so I do observe situation over here. However is you say that Poland don't improved much culturally, I'm curious what is still missing here according to your observation? (in comparison the high "cultural standards" of which other nation? )



I'm not your teacher of history of Europe, you know how to use Google I suppose.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dechristianisation_of_France_during_the_French_Revolution
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacobin_Club
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grand_Orient_de_France#French_Revolution
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholicism_and_Freemasonry

History / Polish Volunteers in the Spanish Civil War [140]

If you already talking about him, do you know to what is the name of this organization that Solana was apparently linked to? From this photo:

Life / A Polish Priest lying about freemasons [57]


Almost everybody know about French revolution. Here is some explanation. Use Google and you will learn more.

CATHOLIC QUICK QUESTIONS
ewtn.com/library/ANSWERS/CAMASON1.htm


I don't know how do you know this in first place. Beside of that many calls American culture to be "anti-culture", so especially Americans should be wary of lecturing grand old nations on this matter.

Life / A Polish Priest lying about freemasons [57]


1. I would not call Tory politicians rightists
2. I might know little about masonry but I know that not all lodges are leftist


Well, I'm not really impressed by English culture, however I would not call them third world country because of that. Perhaps if Michal would bother to back his empty claim with some explanation we would know more. However he seems to be a champion of one line long posts.

Life / A Polish Priest lying about freemasons [57]


Masonry had very ugly anti-church record during the French revolution. So at least from that time the church forbid believers to join masonry ranks. I don't really follow these issues but i don't doubt that leftist masonry has still some issue with Catholic Church.

Beside of that, you sounds like somebody who talk to everybody around about its membership in masonry (your user name is the best example). So when you met her parents they already learned about your masonic membership. No wonder that they think that you are some kind of freak.

Aside note: I see almost all Brits don't waste even a single opportunity to spit on this pain on their asses, I mean Catholic Church. No wonder that Irish always had some many problems with you.

USA, Canada / 2008 U.S. Presidential Election according to Polish and foreign people [90]


Soros said that he personally support Obama, poor Hillary!

USA, Canada / 2008 U.S. Presidential Election according to Polish and foreign people [90]


I did not change my opinion stated in this topic before. Hopefully Ron Paul goes third party, the best solution would be if both Libertarian and Constitution parties backed his candidacy. He has the money from supporters, wont bankrupt. If he lose what is most likely , so what? At least spoil a bit establishment party!


Good choice! :)


No problem for me, I could be a dictator president :)

USA, Canada / 2008 U.S. Presidential Election according to Polish and foreign people [90]

Hillary, Obama or McCain this is one sh*t. Unfortunately...

History / Polish Volunteers in the Spanish Civil War [140]


This is fake story. In fact PiS proposed reduce to minimum pensions of communist oppressors. It turned out that some of them fought in Spanish civil war and western media somehow span this story in this direction. Whether it was part of their anti-PiS campaign, expression of sympathy to ideological friends or just paranoia of ignorants, judge yourself...

I personally don't really believe that those PiS people that pushed this idea truly believe that their original plan could be ever realized. This is just populism.


99% of Nazi rats were punished, 99% of commie rats were not punished. Think about it, the latter group is untouchable. Those are two radical parts of the same camp, thus they hate each other much more than they hate their common capitalist enemies.

History / Polish Volunteers in the Spanish Civil War [140]


From what I know:

Franco never put himself to be subject of voting, he organized some referendums about constitution for example. Pinochet searched for approval of the people, he was a subject of three referendums. He won the first two, lost the last one and allowed to organize free elections reserving for himself the chief of the army post and later became a lifetime Senator. So one cannot say that Pinochet was an enemy of democracy in general. Though neither he was a democrat "no matter what".

Like Franco he did not have a clue about economy, however searching for alternative to communism handed over this sector to liberal Chilean economists educated in Chicago, students of Milton Friedman. I think that their reforms were even better, we in Poland are 100 years behind Chile as far pension system is concentrated. Even socialists which with time handed the power don't dare to reverse these reforms.

Pinochet needed to deal with Chilean clergy which was widely under influence of theology of liberation (condemned by Vatican). Even most of Chilean bishops. He considered them to be simply communists.

History / Poland-Russia: never-ending story? [1341]


Socialists demagogues try to turn those people against each other to win the power for themselves. Financial situation of people is not incidental, it depends from amount of their talents, knowledge and willingness to work hard. If you reject socialist demagogy then it turn obvious that both groups need each other. Poor people need employers, rich people need workers. If they need each other then every class conflict have negative impact on both rich and poor people. All of them consist an indispensable element of society.

History / Polish Volunteers in the Spanish Civil War [140]

OK, we are balancing around the same arguments from a while, there is no sense to continue. I'm convinced about my rightfulness on these matters. I already provided enough of evidence. You have the right to be wrong, I'm glad at least that you learned about this problem from different perspective. :)

History / Poland-Russia: never-ending story? [1341]


Unfortunately even many conservatives and liberals use this communist rhetoric of 'class conflict', even if this is not their goal at all. This is completely artificial segregation because one person through entire life could belong even more than once to all these silly 'classes'. However in Russia this kind of thinking is deeply rooted in their mindset.


Most of Soviet loses were Ukrainians and Belarusians, Nazis marched via these lands. Stalin for sure killed a lot more Russians than Hitler.

History / Polish Volunteers in the Spanish Civil War [140]


I have never said that Franco forced did not commit any crimes. You confuse two situations, when elected government commits crimes during the peace and when the side (in fact alway both sides) of the conflict commit crimes during civil war. Of course this is nothing to be proud however seems to be inevitable. Finally Franco brought stability to this country, something that some many failed to archive before. By the way, could you name one civil war where both sides did not commit any crimes?


Because you don't want to acknowledge this. You are from Ireland but you know very little about the Catholic church. Before Vaticanum II the Catholic church was very friendly to liberal economy and Opus Dei as a ultramontane movement always sticked to the line of Vatican.


Nope. This is you the one who just claims that he was a fascist. I provided a lot of evidence that he was not. Somehow you do not argue with these facts which back my point.

History / Polish Volunteers in the Spanish Civil War [140]


He was a leader of big party which tried to bring Falange to wider coalition. He failed, it means that he was not connected to Falange.


You could also cite Pravda...


You are proofing that the church was a target? :) To some extend this might be true, large part of old Falange consisted from people whom had no sympathy to the church.

History / Polish Volunteers in the Spanish Civil War [140]


I have read it, nothing about Sotelo being member of Falange. I have also read other article in Polish. As I understand this situation, Sotelo ran Renovation Espanola which consisted from few parties that he managed to unite. He also tried to bring Falange on the board but this attempt failed.


If he was not from Falange then this is hardly connection between him and this crime. The left could target him because of this but still this does not matter that he was responsible.


Who is claiming so? A fanatical communist.

Jack Shaw, now 83, was only 18 when he joined the International Brigades. The Jewish son of a Lithuanian mother and Russian father was a member of the Young Communist League and had fought the blackshirts.

So you still have not provided sources to confirm quote below:

History / Russian compensation [16]


What?

Life / Animosity between Poland vrs. Polonia? [98]


You did not mention the most important source of information, the internet. Really if one really want, may find daily updates from many perspectives. Thus internet bother so much all kind of governments, the cheapest way to publish and read news.

History / Polish Volunteers in the Spanish Civil War [140]


I have not access to neither. But I know that Murdoch support neocons and they are not conservative. I have watched Republican debates on three different TV channels (FOX, CNN and MS...?) and basically this is all the same, neocons had the biggest amount of time and were clearly favourized. Someone posted on Youtube this time table, McCain (29min), Romney (26), Huckabee (15) and Paul (6!!!). Giuliani was also media favorite boy till he withdrew. Paul is the only true conservative in this company.


This is childish and undermine freedom of speech.

History / Polish Volunteers in the Spanish Civil War [140]


OK, lets analyze this problem again. Yesterday I stated that in leftist rhetoric "fascist" means nothing else but an offensive call. Isthatu was so kind to quickly confirm my point naming Franco to be "Warped right wing deluisional bottom feeder fellow travler of all deluded right wing monsters and paranoid psycho paths..". He was not interested to describe his political stands, he was interested just to offend him.

In your case, I need to admit that from previous discussion I cannot classify you to leftists. So question for you is whether you recognize other modern undemocratic political systems outside of communism and fascism?

Francism is undemocratic but fundamentally differs from these two above. Franco was a traditionalist not revolutionist like fascists. Thus one could suspect that he was inspired by Spanish Catholic thinker Juan Donoso Cortes and his concept the dictatorship. Donoso Cortes was a monarchist who lost its fate in possibility that monarchical system prevail in traditional form. Thus he was in favor of temporary dictator to restore the old order. This could be said about Franco who restored monarchy in Spain. He did not try to proclaim himself to be king, because he had not royal legitimation. He did not trust Juan Carlos father and that is why he proposed that his son will raise among people who will teach him what was necessary.

So, shortly differences once again, classical fascism and francism:

socialism vs toleration of liberal economy
revolutionary movement vs traditionalist, monarchist
social bottoms vs elitism
ideology vs religion
legitimation in masses vs legitimation in God, fatherland
idealogical fanaticism vs pragmatism

This is completely different system, few fundamental differences exist. What could be more fundamental that this above? I cannot agree with such thesis that everything undemocratic is either fascism or communism. The world is not so simple.

About Italy, I was not interested in this issue before. However this system look fascistic. I accept the argument that fascism in different countries have a bit different character but still resemble classical model.

I cannot accept this link between Mussolini and Catholicism. This is true that Mussolini officially did not reject Catholicism. What he tried to accomplish is to redirect the line of the Catholic Church to serve his particular interests. Such people are called heretics and such behavior should be seen as anti-church. Franco in Spain had the support of the church from beginning, he indeed considered himself to be Catholic. Below quote from wiki explain cynical stand of Mussolini.

Vatican City was recognised by the Italian state. In 1927, Mussolini was baptised by a Roman Catholic priest in order to take away certain Catholic opposition, who were still very critical of a regime which had taken away papal property and virtually blackmailed the Vatican. However, Mussolini was never known to be a practicing Catholic. Since 1927, and more even after 1929, Mussolini, with his anti-Communist doctrines, convinced many Catholics to actively support him. In the encyclical Non abbiamo bisogno, Pope Pius XI attacked the Fascist regime for its policy against the Catholic Action and certain tendencies to overrule Catholic education morals.

I will answer to others later, it is too much for once.


Generally most of mass media outlets and vast majority of mainstream have left-wing bias. From very long time they try to make everything traditional, conservative look bad. When Pinochet passed away in Chile they yelled how bad he was all the time. Wait for Fidel Castro turn and you will see damn double standards from the media. Mark my words!

Another example we witnessed when Germans in Euro-parliament tried to outlaw Nazi symbolic in whole Europe. Coalition of post-communist countries claimed that they will accept this proposal when communist symbolic will be outlawed as well. All this situation is childish but figure out that because of this demand finally this project collapsed. Commies (I mean those 'former') are untouchable, you cannot imprison them because this is against human rights.


Yes and you actually are aware what was characteristic and why? :)


I have already expressed my opinion about foreign help earlier.


Ok, but at this point they were not worse than other top European countries. What the French did in Algeria for example? Spain still have chunks in North Africa. British 'trolling' in Gibraltar and Falklands. France keep Guyana or islands on Pacific and Caribbean.


This was German territory before the war. According to article in wiki Franco stripped them Spanish citizenship. So they fought on their own account at that time.


I provided source, I know about this even from different source. They started in 1957 and you should realize that this influx of tourists was effect of their policy itself. Nothing more I can do to help you in this case.


I cannot find anything about Sotelo in Falange... He was a leader of Renovation Española and Falange was not part of it. Source about murders would be necessary.


I would be glad if you would provide a source for this claim.

History / Polish Volunteers in the Spanish Civil War [140]


Francism fundamentally differs from fascism on many aspects, what I pointed out above. Of course I realize that no matter what I would write some never change mind because for them 'fascism' is just an offensive call. Pure and simple.

History / Polish Volunteers in the Spanish Civil War [140]

You hate to be proofed wrong. I rather value people who like to learn.

History / Polish Volunteers in the Spanish Civil War [140]

In other words everything is fascism what the left dislike. Even a fascist can be a monarchist! Sorry but this is laughable...

History / Polish Volunteers in the Spanish Civil War [140]


Spain indeed was very unstable country. However if you use this as an argument to defend crimes of the Republican government, then I don't buy it. Government is supposed to provide stability and failures of previous leaders don't justify them. Somehow under their rule priests, churches and right-wing politicians were on target. 300 political murders speak for itself. What kind of democracy it was if they killed even Jose Calvo Sotelo who was the leader of parliamentary opposition? So, you don't need to underline that they were democratically elected, so was NSDAP and this is a pity that nobody wiped them out from the face of the earth. No sentiments here, if you are democrat then behave like a democrat or sayonara.


I have provided more detailed statistics in one of previous posts. Opus Dei is a Catholic movement have a a lot of civilian members. At that time among them were also some liberal minded Spanish university professors. They did liberalize economy. I'm surprised that you think that economics science is so trivial and arrival of few tourists may change something radically.

The regime's "families" did not agree unanimously on the new economic policies, and there were clashes between the progressive and the reactionary forces. The Falange resisted the opening of the regime to capitalistic influences, while the technocrats of the powerful Catholic pressure group, Opus Dei, de-emphasized the role of the syndicates and favored increased competition as a means of achieving rapid economic growth. The technocrats prevailed, and members of Opus Dei assumed significant posts in Franco's 1957 cabinet(see Political Interest Groups , ch. 4). Although Opus Dei did not explicitly support political liberalization, it aspired to economic integration with Europe, which meant that Spain would be exposed to democratic influences.

Measures proposed by these technocrats to curb inflation, to reduce government economic controls, and to bring Spanish economic policies and procedures in line with European standards were incorporated in the Stabilization Plan of 1959. The plan laid the basis for Spain's remarkable economic transformation in the 1960s. During that decade, Spain's industrial production and standard of living increased dramatically.

workmall.com/wfb2001/spain/spain_history_policies_programs_and_growing_popular_unrest.html


Franco was not an angel and this is not my intention to make him look like one. I would say that he was the right man, in the right time and the right place.


Franco was not a fascist. We needed to explain something before I proof my claim. In left-wing rhetoric word "fascist" is nothing else but an offensive call.Conservatives don't accept such rhetoric, they know that every word has its meaning,a definition. Thus when they discuss they always try to stick to definition of the words that they use. According to definition of the word fascism, Francisco Franco is not a fascist! Here is a link to his site in wikipedia (and wiki have certain left-wing bias), they don't call him to be a fascist. (neither Spanish or Polish versions) en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Francisco_Franco

Franco was a moderate nationalistand not from those racist ones as I proved earlier.

Time to point out obvious differences between 1. fascism and 2. francism;

1. Ideology is the most is the most important thing. Everything is supposed to realize ideological vision.
2. Based on pragmatic policy, different groups gain the most of influence in different periods of Franco rule. Switched economic systems.

1. Socially revolutional, change the ruling elites to new "revolutionary". Hate traditional elites especially aristocracy. Oppose traditional institutions, especially monarchy.
2. This is reaction for social, political revolution. Has clearly conservative face, preserving traditional institutions. Franco blessed Juan Carlos to be the king of Spain, so he was an monarchist.

1. Has revolutionary legitimation, the power comes from the masses and the leaders rule in their name.
2. Traditional legitimation, God, fatherland, defense of property, tradition

1. The state is supposed to realize the will of the people. The charismatic leader always underline his 'social bottom' background, condemn aristocrats
2. Hierarchic character of the social order, respect for a traditional elites.

1. Ideology (nationalist racism) replace religion.
2. Defend traditional religion

1. Total mobilization of masses, private sphere of life don't exist. Acceptation of thid ideology is obligatory for everybody. Everybody works hard for the sake of ideology.

2. Social ideal is calmness. Good citizens is not political engaged, he cares for his job, family, leave monopoly for political decisions to ruling elites.

1. Expect internal subordination, massive propaganda and indoctrination in family and professional life.
2. Expect from citizens subordination to external law. Nobody is indoctrinated at home or when working.

1. Preventional massive terror, against true and illusionary enemies of the nation or race.
2. Small terror against groups contesting the system. Terror has pragmatic character and is not a crucial essence of the system.

1. The leader is a politician, like a God. Simply, cult of the leader.
2. Lack of the cult of the leader, Franco was a believer himself.

1. mono-party, fractions are not tolerated if appears are immediately destroyed.
2. Ruling party have not massive character, this is cadre of the state apparatus. Doesn;t play a political role itself. There is reduced political pluralism, different fractions push their views. It is like coalition of parties from one side of the political arena.

1. Etatism, interventionism, according to rule of Mussolini "everything in the country, nothing outside the country, nothing against the country". Total control of the state over economy. Central planing.

2. Economic system was changed with time. After Great Depression in the US, Europeans believed in socialisms. Franco was smart enough to change his mind and allowed people from opus Dei to liberalize economy.

1. Army is the tool of the state, without autonomy from ruling party.
2. Army is the pillar of the system. Army take over the power and established authoritarian regime.