UK, Ireland / Why do Poles come to England? [514]

Didn't you mean to address Shelley rather than me, Sławek? All I said was that women come for abortions and I threw it lightly. It is a reality but I wasn't looking to enter into a discussion on it.

I also agree with what you said but the reality is that we do have widely varying cultural norms and views as to various things. Just look at the different ages of consent on different issues. There are fundamental differences but they are being addressed through unions and bi/tri/multilateral agreements.

The key word is balance. Variety keeps the spice in life :)

UK, Ireland / Why do Poles come to England? [514]

Hmm...for abortions ;) ;)

News / 14 year old rape victim from Warsaw denied abortion! [348]

Was Hitler ever excommunicated? Here's a scoop, even Mussolini wanted to have him excommunicated before the war.

Oh, he wasn't a practising Catholic. Well, whoopdeedoo, 75% of 95% Roman Catholic Poland aren't either. So, roughly 1 in 4 don't practise. Interview those and they'll likely tell you that they still have kept their faith (though unpractising). The Centre for Public Opinion Research (2005 study) put it at 97% as Catholic and 58% practising thereof. I've heard many Poles say they have lost interest after the death of JPII. They are no fan of Ratzinger. So, it could be nearer 1 in 2 but let's compromise on 1 in 3. Let's say 66% (2/3) are practising. About 12.8 million non-practising souls. Any comment, Gunslinger? Are they Godless too?

christian.org.uk/news/polish-women-favour-britain-for-abortions
10,000 Polish women got abortions in the UK in 2008. 97% are Catholic with a sound knowledge of the RCC's position on the sanctity of life and the Catechisms. It doesn't matter if they are practising or not, i.e attending church, it matters that they KNOW the implications of being a Catholic and they do. They know full well the position on abortion and that's why they go abroad to get one. Both the woman and the doctor make that decision to abort the baby so why should she be allowed to call herself a Catholic when the dogma and position on it says she can't? There are other reports to back this up should you wish to see them. Hitler was baptised and if you underplay that, you are a fool. Time to move on to what he did and not his label, right?

M-G, to be fair, you can't say that God doesn't exist so emphatically. In fact, that's a very dangerous statement, my friend. The whole point is faith as we just don't know. You can't negate that.

Also, although I don't agree that the Bible should be at the forefront of ANY non-theological or non-religious issue, to say that it has no relevance is wrong. It has relevance relative to the tide of Christianity in that area.

Let's tie this in to the thread. Some say the Bible doesn't speak of abortion at all. Such people haven't read the Bible in its entirety as there are some scant references. Exodus 21: 22-25 or Ecclesiastes 6:3-5 or 4:3 of the same chapter.

rsrevision.com/Alevel/ethics/abortion/christianityandabortion.pdf, contained herein is my position. Look at what the Church of England has to say. Like me, they are morally against abortion but see rape as an exculpating factor.

'"We affirm that every human life, created in the divine image, is unique... We therefore believe that
abortion is an evil... and that abortion on demand would be a very great evil. But we also believe that
to withdraw compassion is evil, and in circumstances of extreme distress or need, a very great evil...
In an imperfect world the 'right‛ choice is sometimes the lesser of two evils."' Church of England 1988

I've just discovered the above thread and it is one of the best I have read. I talked about "necessary evils" above but Gunslinger hasn't addressed it yet. If Jesus granted ultimate forgiveness then so can we as Christians. He even admitted that he would forgive his wife so does he or does he not advocate the administering of the murder penalty for women who have repented (separate contract with God)? He has called abortion murder so why not apply the definition to those cases and prosecute them? Is he prepared to do this? Well, are ye, punk? ;) ;) ;) (sorry, I like Dirty Harry).

Gunslinger, please address posts 278, 280 and 282

News / 14 year old rape victim from Warsaw denied abortion! [348]

Gunslinger, I have one question that I really want to ask you. If there's any one, it's this one.

1) If abortion was made illegal, and the tide of Roe Vs Wade is slowly turning, what punishment should be administered to women who have illegal abortions?

You have to address this social issue as many women have been receiving illegal abortions in some countries for a very long time.

Also, law as social consensus is important. You seem to take a huge moral objection based on your assertion of personhood. You are up against the Jewish lobby too. The first breath is the key criteria according to the Talmud. They don't regard a foetus as a person. Therefore, they don't see it as murder to abort.

Viability and neocortex development seem to be more logical starting points as personhood.

However, the duty of protection rests on us to guide it through to that stage. However, don't you think that if a woman could steer away from a miscarriage when a zygote that she would?

If there is no implantation yet, is it a baby or a potential human as John Kerry said?

News / 14 year old rape victim from Warsaw denied abortion! [348]

Who verified that study by that woman? I gather that it was the only one of its kind. That sounds like a sweep under the carpet job to the rest of them. Where's my guarantee that the results weren't tampered with? Where's my guarantee that they weren't paid off to serve an agenda?

You don't want to treat it as a physical, social or physiological issue at all. Just a Christian one. Well, are you aware of the 2007 WHO study? This has the potential to drag us into analogous debates involving decriminilisation, i.e drugs. They concluded that abortions are just as likely to occur in countries outlawing abortion than to occur in those where it is freely available. The stark and bleak reality of non-medical procedures is a damn sight worse than doing it with a professional hand.

How about the viability threshold being 23 weeks, coinciding with sentience? We see neocortical development then and not before. It is generally understood that personhood starts then.

In America, before abortion was legal, thousands died and many were disformed through the fact that about 800,000 abortions per year were sought illegally.

Ok, according to your study, women want to keep their child of rape and that's their choice. However, how about the kid you so dearly cherish? She would not really see the kid as 'her kid' and thus be unwanted. The kid itself will be ridiculed and feel dreadful, maybe even be driven to suicide.

It violates her privacy, having a child born of rape. Carrying it for all that time, the pain of bearing and the cost of raising. They all hinder her.

News / 14 year old rape victim from Warsaw denied abortion! [348]

1) There is more than one legal system, fella. I'm an English teacher so I can tell you all about the definite article, the, then school you on the Romano-Germanic or Anglo-American system if you wish. I speak not for the Talmud or Koran, sorry.

2) Shrubco was a self-confessed Christian and look what he did to the world. Iraq, 9/11 and Afghanistan being but 3. "Hitler WAS a Catholic", you wrote. Glad that you agree!! Is a Catholic "Godless"? My father is moral for different reasons. The Bible may have played its part but he has never read it to my knowledge, nor was its proverbs and content ever passed down to him. Used to be? Christianity is likely getting stronger in the fight against radical Islam. There has been talk of America even indirectly helping Russia but this is for another thread. No digressing!

3) Oh, I know that alright. It's still not separated, it is connected. It's not a separate party with individual decision-making ability.

4) Hehehe, you've just done it again. As I have said before, I am neither a woman nor a legislator. In this case, just a key rattler who has NEVER said that all women should get an abortion after rape. It's her choice. Self-respecting in the sense of ridding herself of sth spawned from a heinous crime.

5) Fair point! I said most children though which means there is a demarcation line. It all goes back to growth and development. Oh, and sentience ;) ;)

6) Right, so it was just a card shuffle, was it? Oh, they made that choice against all the taboo, parental influence and innate drive, did they? My friend wrangled with all sorts of issues and never read the Bible. He told me that he was gay for as long as he could remember but, for so long, couldn't bring himself to admit it. Now he is fine with it. I've talked to a few guys and they all told me they were born that way to their best knowledge.

7) No, it was not meant to be because there shouldn't have been a morally reprehensible action to bring it about. I know that that's not the fault of the 'kid to be' but the window is there before sentience. As I said, I don't like it but life isn't fair.

8) I will protect human life wherever I can and this includes standard abortions as it's a life form. However, abortion is complicated and we have to balance such concerns against your ones. Sorry, but that's the way it is done. A woman will more fully reinforce that. She will put the case more strongly than I.

9) Yes, this golden conception point again ;) That life wasn't meant to be!! Sorry, ever heard of necessary evils?

10) Of course, I agree with you and I didn't say otherwise. As an anti-abortionist, it should be allowed to pass through to sentience. I am not inconsistent in saying that. However, the window of non-sentience grants that opportunity in rape cases. Temporary non-sentience in living, separated humans is a different story. Murder them and you are down for 25 years. They have never been sentient and we are and have been.

11) You are going into euthanasia type territory and PVS. He is human but barely even sentient as a vegetable. The same as a zygote/embryo. Pulse/heart rate and breathing after 3 weeks?

12) You ducked the sentience debate so that was your call. We differ here!

13) I was saying that a window exists.

14) It's starting but they aren't there yet.

15) Rape is an exception. End of! You are talking about standard abortions.

16) To be continued. I have football (soccer) to play. That's why my arguments were so short towards the end.

PS There is scope for debate and I will sit down more after your reply and think it through more fully than this post. Thanks!

News / 14 year old rape victim from Warsaw denied abortion! [348]

I sent Gunslinger an article from the Guardian about the dangers of an absolute ban on abortion. It was a Nicaraguan case study and caught the attention of Amnesty International.

I wonder if that will enter his ruminations or will be conveniently ignored. The incidence of rape is high there and so is suicide.

Language / mój - moja [28]

I think so too as I saw patterns emerging. I've slowly gotten to grips with it.

News / THE HOMINTERN IN POLAND? [80]

Well, I'll let him speak as I don't know, I wasn't there ;0 ;)

I do know that there were similar stories about Serbs having their organs removed by UCK and KLA terrorists. Again, I'm reluctant to believe almost anything I read these days.

Anyway, back to the thread.

News / THE HOMINTERN IN POLAND? [80]

This story has been circulated by different news outlets, jonni. He's not making this up though I can't attest to its actual validity. Nonetheless, it remains a news item as I have come across it in different places.

Look around.

News / 14 year old rape victim from Warsaw denied abortion! [348]

1) Gunslinger, I have a postgraduate law degree (LLM) and we have the same statement in court. It is a logistic formality and the judiciary knows that not everyone knows the Bible. You swear to tell the truth and the truth is that they took an option permitted by law. There! Satisfied?

2) Hitler was a Catholic, you moron! There are atheists like SeanBM on this forum whom I would place trust in. He is fair and you can see how balanced he is across the forum. He listens and is a moral man, though not a man of God. Just like my father. One of the most moral men I have had the privelege of meeting. He is a nurse teacher (my Dad).

3) A separate party connected by an umbilical cord? LOL Wow, how independent. You have just made an utter fool of yourself and you know that, right? Harry even dubbed it as a leech/parasite but I cannot countenance that position at all.

4) Tactics, wow. Getting a taste of your own medicine then, sonny? At least I didn't put words in your mouth. How foul that was!

5) No, those points were all valid. Most children can reflect on childhood, funny that yours can't. Let's ask a foetus, are you enjoying your childhood? LOL What do you get up to in there? When people reflect back on their childhood, they remember actions. Who remembers being in the stomach? Come on lad, give it up! Oh, and I have 4 words for you, 'I do not remember'. If we ARE us at conception then we'd remember who and what we ARE through memory. You sounded like you were only saying that we are human and that's obvious.

6) Physically and mentally destructive to who? To gay people as private and consenting adults? It is how they ARE. Do you think most people choose to be gay? My friend fought with it for years, going with girls who he couldn't really feel for. He is not damaged as he accepted what he IS. If you ARE, at conception, born with the gay gene then shouldn't you be afforded protection as you are a child of God? Being rather selective, are we? What did Jesus do with Maria Magdalena, a prozzy? He didn't turn her away, did he? Go on, tell me. What did John Paul the 2nd do to that guy who shot at him? He went to him and went right close to him. The American Association changed it for a reason.

7) Not knowing the joys of life is an acceptable result of abortion for all the reasons I have outlined. Simply put, that entity was not meant to be (child to be to please you).

8) Go and take it up with the doctors then. I merely said that we have to trust people but that we have to educate ourselves to the hilt like my Mum does before any visit.

9) What if she doesn't want to be put through the agony of childbirth? There's a psychological reason for you. What if she is so busy at work through the rat race that she cannot take maternal leave? Social reason. What if she doesn't want the burden of lumping a foetus around with her for months on end? Practical reason. You just love putting women through extra hassle to serve your holier-than-thou agenda!!

10) And the scientific community is very divided. That shoots you down in flames in a oner. Heard of medical science? There is a procedure there called abortion that has been developed ;) ;)

11) That's temporary non-sentience, mudslinger. They still revert to becoming a fully functional member of society thereafter. We still possess sentience, it is just 'switched off' at that moment as we biologically need to sleep. The zygote and embryo don't have this sentience. It comes further into the foetal stage.

Here, 'Truth is, it's all about WHEN the baby becomes a sentient human being. That is, in my view, the ONLY discussion on the abortion issue that has any merit. If the baby is truly not alive until the baby is born, then "Pro Choice" groups are correct. If the baby is alive before birth, then the "Pro Life" groups are correct.' from forums.hannity.com/showthread.php?t=1294521

I agree, it's centrally relevant you moron! Sentience is at 23 weeks generally. Without sentience, what is an entity? It's a developing child but isn't yet a human being without sentience, sorry.

12) Aha, "will be sentient" but isn't yet? That's all I needed to know, thanks. It hasn't reached sentience so, IMHO, as an embryo born of rape, it can be aborted as it hasn't reached personhood. No sentience, no personhood. Generally, though, I think that it shouldn't be aborted as it needs to be allowed to reach sentience. God made it that way that it had to move through phases to get there but rape is a special case and I stand by that. I am generally anti-abortion as I have said before. It is a window through which action, though regrettable, can be taken.

13) Sentience is not all I have. I have outlined all manner of other material factors above and you know it. It's all there should you care to look (though you won't).

14) People do take a stand against murder and that's why murderers go to prison for 25 years. Duh! Not very perceptive today, GS.

15) I keep telling you. Because it was not meant to be. Not by conscious design. Not through God's loving contract of marriage.

'Brandy,
Please do not tell your son. I was a child concieved by rape. I was a closed adoption but with help of search angel was reunited. I found bmom and was told at that time that she was brutally raped. I did not deal well with this bit of information at all. This is becasue the entire time growing up my aparents told me her age and his age and told me that they were probably in love and they made a mistake. Boy were they ever wrong. I have big issues knowing that I was concieved by rape. even worse I look exactly like him. Bmom everytime she sees me sees him. She has a hard time with it as well. If you so decide to tell your son please so not make it any time soon. Let him have his child hood. it is VERY difficult once the truth is made known.'

There are countless numbers of other tales like these. Harsh reminders of your torment. Stop passing it off. Would you be prepared to meet all those born of rape who have lived lives of torment and not having biological parents? Those basta*d children would be ridiculed and you allow that in rape cases simply because you can't accept a SCIENTIFIC window through non-sentience to abort. You slimy toad!

16) DNA patterns, I get it. AND? Don't you think that hasn't been thought about, you bellend? Go and announce your revelation to a kid, fool.

17) Our nature through genetics is not our nurture. Simple enough for you? Sorry, I had to keep it at grassroots level as you would struggle otherwise. We ARE more than just the sum of our parts. Can't you get that?

18) I was addressing its practical application. Blanket forgiveness isn't the reaction of most people. Then again, you aren't most people, hickboy. Punishable under the law, now your neuron has fired. It took you a while. Let the law serve its purpose.

19) Again, how many times should repentance be allowed? We shouldn't treat them as murderers is my point and that is abundantly clear. The law in on my side here, as in most countries.

20) Hypocrite, how? Look above to your posts :) :) :)

News / If Poland is attacked by Russia will N.A.T.O help defend Poland or not? [171]

Won't that number have declined, Torq? It has been a full year now since the abolition of conscription and many people will have gone on to do other things. I am maybe naive here but it's a logical assumption.

News / If Poland is attacked by Russia will N.A.T.O help defend Poland or not? [171]

I wouldn't be so sure. Politics is all about game playing and harsh rhetoric. Look at the Cold War, there was never any real intention of using nukes. They decided that they'd be each other's enemy as they needed one. Reagan and Gorbachev, for example, had a dialogue and I wouldn't really class them as true enemies. Call it extended role play if you like.

News / JEW YOUTH SHOULD CLEAN UP THEIR ACT IN POLAND [420]

Well, I don't run into many Jewish people here at all. Gliwice obviously isn't a key attraction, LOL

News / JEW YOUTH SHOULD CLEAN UP THEIR ACT IN POLAND [420]

I agree with that, 1Jola. There is largescale indifference to the Jews now, a point I keep making. Residual hatred will remain but it isn't so noticeable.

The easiest way to find out, jonni, is to look at the prosecutors. Declinature is key but I'm not sure if it was followed here.

News / JEW YOUTH SHOULD CLEAN UP THEIR ACT IN POLAND [420]

It is widescale profiteering and there are many guilty parties. Yehudi, you have my apologies. I will look in random chat as I can't find that post where you make reference to Piłsudski, it vanished.

News / 14 year old rape victim from Warsaw denied abortion! [348]

£odz, a minor cannot legally give consent until she is 15 or, I think now, 16 in Poland. Now, I've raised this with students. The age of criminal responsibility in Scotland is 8 but don't laugh, it's 7 in quite a few countries, notably India and Singapore. Foreseeably, it could be as low as 6 in the US (North Carolina and some others).

So, if you understand the whole rationale for why there is a wide discrepancy here, from 6-18, then you can begin to appreciate the magnitude of the case. Poland says 17 btw, behind Belgium and Brazil etc at 18. Interestingly, jako ciekawostek, the International Criminal Court sets it at 18.

I thought we were all ONE in the eyes of God, £odz. So are we ONE or just one less? (after abortion) ;) ;)

My point is that there is flexibility and scope for wider debate. Yes, she should have known what she was doing at 14 (many would say yes, many no) but there are many classifications of 'ages of consent' and the relevant one here says she had no authority on which to make a decision thus it rests on the man to put his hands up and accept what is coming to him.

Looking forward to Dickslinger comin back. Ma waf, she do, did, done gettin that abOARtion. I be raisin hell a tell ya, LOL. Don't go stamping your feet through those floorboards now, ye hear? ;) ;)

News / 14 year old rape victim from Warsaw denied abortion! [348]

1) And what does that repentance involve as Protestants don't go to a priest for confession? To what extent is repentance a mitigating factor? It cannot assoilzie/exonerate the 'criminal' of wrongdoing largely as that would lay a dangerous precedent. Everyone would be enlisting on acting courses ;0 ;) Don't get me wrong, forgiveness is divine and everyone (sincere) can be afforded a change of heart but you are treading on eggshells if you are not clear on how to treat the issue. The way I see it is that, as a collective society, we are bound by the laws of the day. You can invoke God's Law but, to my knowledge, there are not Christian courts as there are land courts, district courts and sheriff courts etc etc so forum non conveniens. Like Hobbes, Rousseau, Locke and Montesque discussed the Social Contract, we can talk of our Private Contract with God. Call it a bond if you will. This is where we can explain our choice and repent for perceived criminality. Keep it out of the courtroom, though. It's a spiritual matter.

2) Thank you, you have just spoken volumes about yourself. Law is for EVERYONE with few exceptions (the Queen, diplomatic immunity). A British MP from yesteryear (Kenneth Baker I think) found out the hard way that he wasn't above the law. You should care about the views of atheists and agnostics in shaping the law. Are they any less of a human being than you or I? Is their input to the democratic process any less valid? If anything, they are less 'charged' on the issue and that could produce a greater degree of fairness rather than serving agendas as those in the abortion business do. Agreed? My core point is that society is diverse, encompassing a broad sweep of divergent interests. The church is but one factor, albeit a more important one in certain cultures (in welfare concerns etc etc). What you have, Gunslinger, is faith and I can applaud you for that. However, it is only faith and not documented proof beyond any question. The very proof for that contention is religion itself and not only different religions but subsets of the same one, Christianity in our case. Fractious splits! There are laws ensconced in legislation beyond any question and it is these that we have recourse to. Fine, invoke civil disobedience concerns. If they reverse injustice then I am all for it. However, you are more likely to be arrested.

3) I have clearly said, time and again, that I support the natural development of the baby from zygote-embryo-foetus-birth and beyond. I even took the decency to summarise my position and mention "a smooth transition". As a general position, I also said that I am anti-abortion but I'm neither a woman nor a legislator. You remind me of some in the election process, e.g och, Ahmedinejad won so let's have another vote or Brussels telling the Irish that they could vote so long as they said yes. Is that choice? They didn't accept the no vote which was a democratically obtained demonstration of the will of the people. Somebody has to make a decision on abortion and you have struck off legislators and doctors, people regarded as intelligent and competent for the most part, so who should make the choice? The woman so that they have the choice to say only no to abortion? Elaborate please. Your right position is not others right position. There are many vested interests involved, admit it!

4) Hitler got other people to do his bidding. When you hire a contract killer/assassin, who gets hit harder in terms of penalty, the killer or the hirer? The hirer was art and part (Scots Law term), maybe you guys say aided and abetted. He was in on it, so to speak. However, the killer is the one with mens rea and carries out the actus reus. Hitler, of course, committed a crime but I've just put it into perspective. Read the Eichmann case for more on the concomitant principles. Are you gonna further punish the woman by not even offering a choice? Who should be punished and to what degree according to your Moral law of God?

"the baby is a human being" you said. Ok, I've read many definitions and one says person, man, woman or child. Let's look at that. Personhood hasn't been proven yet. Man, no. Woman, no. Child? Well, if it is indeed a child, can it reflect on childhood? Can it trace its earliest memory? Mirriam-Webster takes a different position, citing upright stance, a large brain and spoken language, none of which are possessed by your 'child'. I can cite many more refuting your case but I won't overload you. I have more strings in the bow.

5) Ok, God's Word says sodomy is an abomination, a sin. What's your word? Have you no independent thought? Do you tell everyone around you to hold on and let you check God's Word every time they have a puzzler or ethical dilemma? Didn't God impute righteousness into Man in your opinion? (are you a Lutheran, a Calvinist or what?) You said above that you would admit your wife back in after repentance. Do you then agree or disagree with the Catholic (RCC) notion of synterisis (a spark of goodness)? Cutting to the chase, Catholics value good works. Isn't confession, in and of itself, a good work in your eyes? If so, why are you a Protestant? I guess you support Total Depravity. What is your take on infused grace?

Unplanned children to be, born of rape, are often put into an invidious predicament. Mendacious is a good word where the identity of their true parents is kept from them. There are just too many counter arguments against your pro-life position.

6) The doctor doesn't compel them most of the time, he talks to them and runs them through the potential repercussions. At the end of the day, he is just a part of the process. It is the woman who seeks the abortion for whatever reason.

7) Self-respecting in the sense of freeing herself of something that she never asked for and exercising her right to do so. This is not about careless women who sleep around and don't take precautions, Gunslinger. I'll leave that defence to other people. I just have this vision of most normal people, seeing their wife, sister, daughter, whatever the relationship is, sitting in a hospital beside her and the poor husband, having respected her wishes as a new-age, feeling man, being torn inside as this is not what he wanted either. He entered into the contract of marriage so that they could have a kid with his sperm. She was highly pressurised by the doctor into bearing the child but she trusted his medical judgement. Oh, that's right, we shouldn't trust doctors in your opinion. She went against her better judgement as she was told that bearing rather than aborting would increase her chances of a baby with the man whom she wanted to have one with. Are you then going to clear up the mess and adopt this unwanted child? Maybe you should rally round your buddies and prepare for this.

8) "Stop the mad scientist?" I thought you were all for science. It is the basis of your whole case. Oh, you are the guy that hand picks scientific appointments, not based on their ability but on how much they support your line of thought. Gotcha!! It's all clear now!

9) I've given a part above about personhood and all the definitions are against you. MORAL philosophers disagree with you. Sentience is directly related to personhood and personhood tests have many prongs. Are you aware of any of them?

Here, 'If we want to go from this to saying that the fetus is also a person, this requires us to show why it it should be regarded as a person (which, as we have seen, is no easy task).' From an excellent source, thatreligiousstudieswebsite.com/Ethics/Applied_Ethics/Abort ion/concept_of_personhood_4.php,

10) ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15820013, early embryos do not qualify for personhood. I suggest you get a hold of this paper. It shows the connection between sentience and personhood. We can have an individual debate on sentience if you wish.

11) 'Unfortunately, there is no consensus of when human personhood starts. People have different beliefs' often they regard their own belief as absolutely true and obvious. Even if there were, there is no agreement on the conditions under which an abortion of that new person should be allowed.' religioustolerance.org/abo_when2.htm

It's describing you, LOL

12) thecitizen.com/node/4488, this sums my opinion up nicely. Give the benefit of the doubt to the foetus in standard abortion cases but know that personhood hasn't been defined to reach broad consensus.

13) If they have no bearing on personhood, what is the use of living? How does a status label preclude all experience which LIFE presents us with externally? Personhood is a human being? Well, I am a human being and I am living and learning different things in life. Did my code dictate that or did my choices dictate that? I was exposed to external stimuli. There are many ifs in life, not strict ways, and if I hadn't met my friend at uni, I wouldn't have gone to Japan etc etc. This was by chance, randomised and not precoded as you would have me believe.

14) Reading into what you are saying, you would never have us move off of the starting blocks. Conception is the golden moment and we should freeze in this moment and not go out into the world and develop ourselves. That's what you are saying. Of course we will always be human, that is axiomatic. Ripe for killing? What, because they doubt? Pff... Who we are can change through time.

15) Covered above

16) I understand forgiveness, alright. You take such a firm stance against those 'murderers' and yet you accept a 'murderer' back into your house. If I murdered your wife and blew up your house but then sincerely repented, would you truly forgive me? How many heinous deeds could I get away with? Does repentance have limits? Is it only perceived sincerity and then off the hook? Is it principle or number?

17) You revere marriage yet you'd throw it all away? She's bound to say she's sorry if she wants to salvage the marriage. This is what married partners should try to avoid, 'irretrievable breakdown'. There is a 'crime' left unpunished in your eyes. A heinous one at that. What if all women did the same? In your eyes, unpunished murder across the board.

18) In your beloved Total Depravity Protestant notion, there is the belief that sin is innate to man, that he will sin again and again. You have given women an opt-out clause. A confession can wash away murder, right? Let's be clear, that's what you are saying, right? If so, that's dangerous in that you could have a murderer do his thing and then just confess it all away sincerely. Murderers are of many types, just look at Dexter. Being serious, there are humane murderers according to you. Can you deny this as you regard women who abort as being humane and with no malice aforethought, you've said as much. Still murder in your eyes.

Over to you, Mr Hypocrite :) I'll settle for hippocrate in my case.

News / 14 year old rape victim from Warsaw denied abortion! [348]

1) I disagree. It got there through a heinous crime and we can't accept that. Tell me, are you a Catholic Christian? If so, in a standard abortion case, can you forgive the woman for having an abortion and then confessing her logic to a priest? What function does penance/repentance serve in your eyes?

Here, I've just unearthed this, "It is legitimate for the church to have its dogmas, but these dogmas must not be imposed on society as a whole," he added. From edition.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/americas/03/11/brazil.rape.abortion/, a very interesting read.

The church is but one player, Gunslinger. I could wrangle with my conscience over the issue but I'm glad that he thinks likewise as a devoted Christian. There are many vested interests in abortion and we need to take a rounded and balanced position.

2) It is easier for most to kill without seeing the victim, I agree with you on that. That doesn't make it right but I'm not talking about standard abortion now but abortion for a 14-year old rape victim. A kid if you will. 1973? I'd say that there was a thorough review of the issue and that conventional wisdom changed. Hardly rocket science! You'd open Pandora's Box if you gave all states the power to regulate fully. Californian legislators must have had problems. They disagreed with abortion but agree with it at the same time. Crazy!!

3) Can't you get it through your head the importance of the nuclear family and for a wanted child to be conceived through wedlock? That's normal. Are you against gay marriages btw? That's perceived as a sin, as is sodomy. She didn't plan that child so why should she be forced to bear and raise it? Why should she suffer from being invaded? Iraq has and multiple deaths have resulted from the stirring of the hornet's nest. Proud of that are you? Clown! Again, no malice aforethought and the courts apply legal rules and not God's Law. Let the church condemn and punish as they see fit in accordance with their vision but let the law serves its function/purpose.

4) I can't control what those doctors do so it all boils down to trust that they follow the Hippocrates Oath and Helsinki Principles on ethical conduct. We need trust as humans, wouldn't you agree? Let those doctors be punished accordingly by whatever appropriate standards. Doctors are only human, they can be wrong. My mother often knew what was wrong with her better than her male doctor did. Still, we have entrusted them with responsibilities, one of which is to make the call on abortion. Deal with it!!

5) I threw a hypothetical at you. If we can mass kill through AIDS (Detrick's own baby) then we can mass create through available science. You answered exactly as I thought. You'd allow all manner of social ills and horrible problems to result from the mass swelling of the population rather than avert the problem when you could. It says a lot about you.

6) My wife pointed out my inaccuracy too. I meant to say physical restitution, sorry. Of course she bears the scars emotionally and I'm fed up with you trying to trip me up on this and say otherwise. From here on in, I say unequivocally that we must always have this in mind. Her welfare is paramount. Physically removed like it never happened, no reference to the emotional aspect which we agree on.

7) As I said in the last round of posts, I DO NOT treat her as a lesser woman. You are just an ignorant buffoon who is reading invisible words as I clearly said that I respect her choice. She is not a lesser woman for choosing life. She evaluates the situation and makes a choice thereof. Oh, I'm not going to tell you again. Stop declaring my position as you see it, read what I write in future. Got it? A few weeks old child experiences trauma? What, read their testimony did you? How did you get the pen and paper in there, Sherlock?

8) A person starts at birth in the eyes of many. That's why we have the development of zygote-embryo-foetus building up to that. Define personhood. What are its essential features? If it not sentient, is it a real human? By the accounts of Glannon, sentience begins at 23-24 weeks.

Let's say that he is wrong and that sentience begins at 12 weeks, 89% of foetuses are aborted by then. By 23-24 weeks, virtually all in all likelihood. You cannot underestimate sentience. If an unborn child doesn't have the sensory awareness necessary to be dubbed sentient, then they are not yet a person.

9) Genetic make-up is one half of the debate and you didn't even address nurture there so what's the sense in debating with you?

10) Philosophical, social, environmental and embracing cultural concerns too. What do you mean "is determined" at conception? Nice little language but what are the practical implications of this? That our life is pre-ordained? That we are all in the hands of destiny or fate? That our views will never change because we are programmed through genetic coding? That our intelligence will never develop through travelling and academic endeavour? How about language acquisition, is this another genetic miracle where we automatically speak the language of our parents? The midlife crisis is relevant here. There is "dramatic self doubt". Explain to me how this can be when, according to your developmental curve, we are making constant progress through physiological growth and character formation? When do we fully realise who we are, at conception? LOL That's absurd! Why, when we have known who we are for many years and test ourselves out in many situations, do we suddenly run into self esteem and ego difficulties come 45 or 50?

11) Because many medical practitioners acknowledge 12 weeks as being the crossover to foetus status. There is less scope for saying that it isn't a human at this stage, as opposed to a zygote. As we have seen, though, it isn't classed as sentient. Should we compromise on 18 weeks? This is the time between foetus status and sentience. Again, what is personhood, Gunslinger?

12) Cleansing is important in cases such as dealing with a 14-year old rape victim. try and see the woman's position in all of this. Women will choose as women will choose.

13) Why would it take "much consideration?" Consideration of what? Regretted and repented? Aha, so if I commit murder but, as a good actor, say 'Oh, I'm very sorry' and I just pop off to the church and say a few choice words, that makes it all ok, does it?

My wife has just called you an insensitive pig and that you should crawl back under your stone. You would do that to your own wife, after being RAPED? Wow, you have just demonstrated that it is YOU with the problem.

You are nothing more than a strict liability advocate who doesn't have the computational and analytical ability to see the bigger picture. The whole family dimension just doesn't count in your eyes, the whole Christian institution of marriage and the sanctity of choice either.

You are offensive to moderate Christians. Tell me, on what date did God 'hand' you those principles? Does repenting clear the murderer of murder? Does regret mean that you can forgive them for their aborting action? If so, why can't you forgive all women who show remorse/regret for their abortive deed? Aren't you bordering on selectivism here? What if all those Catholic Poles who got abortions in the UK asked for penance, what then? They can 'murder', then escape, no?

Affections or good graces, love too? Isn't Love divine? Didn't God give us his grace, which is unconditional anyway? We can see much evidence of this in the Bible.

You have abandoned your principles anyway by taking a 'criminal' back, right?

News / JEW YOUTH SHOULD CLEAN UP THEIR ACT IN POLAND [420]

He wasn't able to inspire everyone in that way, M-G. He didn't make anti-Semitism a punishable crime. He just wanted to engender a spirit of cooperation. There are many anti-war 'heroes' or truth 'heroes' but still there is war and lies.

See my point, M-G?

News / 14 year old rape victim from Warsaw denied abortion! [348]

1) Yes but I am talking about rape victims here, not standard abortions and that's where you are going wrong. More to the point, the girl is 14 and the consensus is that a girl has to be 16 or older to give informed consent to medical procedures. In some states like Illinois (ask the member, sledz), it's 18. I have already said above that it is going through the necessary stages towards becoming a tangible person like you or I so you are arguing with a ghost on that one.

2) There are other threads for discussing this conflict

3) So you are reduced to describing abortion as wrong and not murder. Tell me, if you are so convinced that those who conduct abortions should face the coals of hell and severe punishment, what is your answer to the fact that almost every legislator regards murder as one of the most heinous crimes (genocide is worse) known to man but that many countries have legalised abortion? How can that be?

4) "I don't know about you but part of that purpose involves a rich family life with parents who wanted me and still want me. Their love and support is invaluable and priceless to me. What sentimental feelings has that child born of rape? Does quality of life have no meaning to you?". This is what I asked you to comment on. A natural family life without the scourge of being a child spawned of rape hanging over you like a dark clowd.

5) Abortion is murder? Well, prima facie, and according to the definition you pick, it could be. That's why there is a need for consistency. As I said before, malice aforethought is not in the mind of the woman in most cases and you admitted that. Also, there is sufficient flexibility to say that, if the child is likely to have subsequent mental health problems, then that may be enough to get an abortion. Again, back to quality of life but I see your point that we can't pick and choose. We have retarded children and they have as much right to live as others. What would you say if sb went mad and went on a wild campaign to create millions of test tube babies? Would you accept the growth in population?

6) You are repeating yourself. You clearly didn't read my answer where I said that women making that choice is absolutely fine. If they can live with the various consequences then that's their call. Abortion IS restitution as you return it to the position that existed before the rape occurred, i.e the position that should be. A woman devoid of that painful memory. Forgive me if I use my sound logic to conjecture stats as opposed to yours made up by people serving agendas and who knows how such views were obtained, if at all.

7) Again, you just need the humane mind to tell you how trauma works. Nobody should profit from this and I'm not impressed with either your deflection in this way or your reference to 'harping on'. We are dealing with a 14-year old girl and she needs a curator bonis and other professional help. We can't understate that.

8) Sentience is very relevant here and you know it. You are gonna enter the nature Vs nurture debate by saying that who you are is determined at conception? Talk about taking a definitive position by only stating half of the argument. A classic pro-lifer, pent up and ready to ram their nonsense down the throats of others at the expense of rational debate. From the tabula rasa, social factors can play a major part, depending on where you were born and were subsequently raised. Let me shoot you down properly by actually exposing the weakness of your blanket statement (rather than assuming victory based on platitudes). I'll raise it as my next point.

9) You say that who we are is determined at conception, right? Our whole self isn't and that's what makes the collective 'us', the ego and the id etc etc. Without plunging into the abyss that is Nature Vs Nurture, I have 2 words for you, MIDLIFE CRISIS. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Midlife_crisis, some reading for you as you seem to need it. Who we ARE is determined by factors around us and wikipedia covers the main ones. Also, what about those that become schizophrenic through LSD use or other causes? Those that were normal before I mean. Was that written in the genes too or did set&setting decide it? The environment is key here, not genetics (although I agree that drugs merely trigger the onset of schizophrenia in some). See the complications? I'm prepared to delve into them rather than taking black+white positions. I suggest you start doing the same.

10) I told you that 12 weeks was the critical period and I'm not gonna go round in circles with you on it. At conception, LOL. Where is its birth certificate? Oh, that's a legal measure, sorry. OK, you are guilty of speciesism. A zygote cannot do many things that people can and thus is not personhood. We grow and evolve, it's a matter of degree and not some form of robotic coding. You are thinking of pre-personhood and not personhood.

11) You are putting words in my mouth so I suggest you put a sock in yours. For the last time, I am NOT saying that she is less of a woman for it you howling Harry hoof. I said above that her choice is what matters and is of the utmost importance. In PIFL, the welfare of the child is paramount. How can you make that assessment when the child hasn't even been born yet? That's why it falls back to the woman to decide as an unborn child cannot express a view either way. What "putrid" feelings I ask you? I see the trauma, I see her right to choose, what feelings are you referring to? You clearly don't believe in cleansing and restitution. You are the insincere one for imposing an absolute position which gives rape victims no choice. You are a hypocrite and have just proved it. Do you give the woman a choice or not? I want this answer. If you say yes, that means that you are laying bare the possibility that she will abort and you'll brand her a murderer. If not, then you are denying them a cure for their trauma. You allow them the choice to give birth but not to abort. Wow, that's not a choice from where I'm sitting.

12) Your last para is loose and bears no relation to what I wrote. Just a rant really.

Let me summarise my position, Gunslinger. I am basically anti-abortion (if I were asked to take a side) and don't approve of it because I believe, as a Christian, that life must be allowed to come to fruition. Just as we protect our own in war or against genocide of 'our kind', we must protect that which will be our kind (if all goes well). Therefore, the smooth transition from zygote to embryo to foetus is in our interests so that it becomes a loved child under God. Sometimes, along that road, we encounter death. Just look at the Balkans, the Holocaust or in Rwanda, for example. They nobly fought to preserve their kind but God's Will couldn't preserve life.

Now the clincher. Rape is a special case and you can't deny that. Just look at all the reasons I have given above and consider that she is only 14. Now I ask the most important question which you skipped before. What if your wife or partner told you, upon consummation of marriage, that her main purpose is to have a baby by you. You honour your vows and all goes swimmingly well until, boom, she is raped brutally and this shakes her up very badly. She desperately wants an abortion and prays that she can have a baby by you in the future. Her dream is still alive. What would you do? Spout your spiel or keep her hope alive by honouring her wishes and guiding her through it as an empathetic husband?

News / Slavic linguistic union inside of EU; Polish language official [95]

The Poles get to travel freely within the EU. I remember going up to Finland through the Baltic states and there were no passport checks. I don't think Poles want to give up such freedoms to work, roam and move capital.

News / Slavic linguistic union inside of EU; Polish language official [95]

BB, where's the accountability? Europe has shown time and again that it talks and does nothing or takes the wrong action and then talks about it til the cows come home.

News / Slavic linguistic union inside of EU; Polish language official [95]

History is the proof, BB. Germany said there would be no compromise on this point as there would be a return to pre-1991 Tito borders. You carved up the Serbs into 3 territories, making them ripe for the pickings and in a state of disunity.

A Serb knows that Samo Sloga Srbija Spasava and that's why they were worried. Still, it was payback to the Serbs for attempting to carve up Bosnia.

News / Slavic linguistic union inside of EU; Polish language official [95]

Resorting to insults tells me that you are losing the argument.

Even Tudjman was prepared to grant autonomy to Serbs within the district of Krajina (Knin). He was open to compromise, BB. Germany, however, didn't want that and told Tudjman as much.

News / Slavic linguistic union inside of EU; Polish language official [95]

Satellite, colonisation, call it what you will as I'm not into labels. It had the distinct appearance of a satellite as you sought to control their actions and played on their sympathies and old ties with Ustashe fascists. They were the residuals from Nazism, people like Ante Pavlic. Go and Google Hermann Neubacker.

Call Poland a US satellite if you must but you will likely get a reaction from resident Poles.

The German secret service was instrumental in putting Tudjman in place. Tudjman was jailed by Tito for excessive nationalism. An anti-Semitic, anti-Serbian idiot.

News / Slavic linguistic union inside of EU; Polish language official [95]

Maybe it should be Croatian as the Germans would love that ;) ;) With the attempts to create an independent Croatia as a German satellite, I'm sure Germans are quite fluent in that language by now.

BB, Germany wanted complete control over their intel and armed them against the law as there was an arms embargo in place.

So, BB, Croatian?

News / Slavic linguistic union inside of EU; Polish language official [95]

Ukraine's accession to NATO will be far more important come 2017 when the Sevastopol Agreement expires. It doesn't pay to make predictions but, were Ukraine to be in NATO then, it could spark a war.

News / JEW YOUTH SHOULD CLEAN UP THEIR ACT IN POLAND [420]

Yehudi, based on the assumption that Piłsudski tried to entice the French into a preventive war, you should be grateful that he would have averted millions of Jewish deaths.

Let me ask you, do you even know him by more than name? Do you know that he represented a major hope to Jewish people?

He was the humane Uncle Joe that won over the hearts and minds of many Jews. How dare you come on here and bite the hand that fed you!!? He was a Pole loyal to the Jewish cause. What's your beef with him?

'Piłsudski replaced the National Democrats' "ethnic-assimilation" with a "state-assimilation" policy: citizens were judged not by their ethnicity but by their loyalty to the state.[128][129] Widely recognized for his opposition to the National Democrats antisemitic policies,[130][131][132][133][134][135] he extended his policy of "state-assimilation" to Polish Jews.[128][129][136][137] The years 1926–35, and Piłsudski himself, were favorably viewed by many Polish Jews whose situation improved especially under Piłsudski-appointed Prime Minister Kazimierz Bartel.[138][139] Many Jews saw Piłsudski as their only hope for restraining antisemitic currents in Poland and for maintaining public order; he was seen as a guarantor of stability and a friend of the Jewish people, who voted for him and actively participated in his political bloc.[140] Piłsudski's death in 1935 brought a deterioration in the quality of life of Poland's Jews'[135], from Wikipedia on Piłsudski

How would you like it if I said that the Poles should be furious for the Jews bringing the Nazis to Polish soil? Such a nonsense point cannot be countenanced and neither should your anti-Piłsudski bile in the other thread on 9/11.

News / Slavic linguistic union inside of EU; Polish language official [95]

BB, it all depends on who your negotiators are how well they can play the game. If you are in a position of dependency, as many European countries are in relation to gas, then how is business good when you leave it to trust?

The Russians may have a different interpretation of this word.

Anyway, this is about language. Delph made a good point above. There was stubborness between Serbs and Croats when it came to language recognition. You were all Yugoslavians after all.

Crow, a quick digression. Why do you talk of "the strongest currency in Europe" many years ago, giving it broad stock and a wide berth, then you won't even recognise the currency of your neighbour? I went with Macedonian denar to exchange it in Serbia but they looked at me like it was a currency from the moon and told me no way.

I like the German philosophy of Vorsprung Durch Technik, this has helped the EU.

Polish could be the official language but a Slavic Union? Too many opponents.