Language / I know Russian language - will it help me learn Polish? [105]

Osiol,

You're right when you mention getting words mixed up. As I posted several weeks ago, language interference is a major reason for not learning two related languages both at the same time!

Marek

Language / I know Russian language - will it help me learn Polish? [105]

Michal,

That's partly my point. The Poles you encountered, mixed ages probably, might have merely pretended not to understand/speak/ Russian as a kind of "knee-jerk" reaction or resentment that may still persist.

I'm only guessing though, since I probably wasn't there when or where you were.
Marek

Language / I know Russian language - will it help me learn Polish? [105]

Czesc, Panie!

Stary Polak przed kilkoma latami opowiedzial mi 'Kazdy Polak rozumie jezyk rosyjski, ale NIKT nie to mowi.' = ('......chetnie mowi,')

Moze byc tak samo jak w Hollandii i jezyk niemiecki w zwiazku z Druga Wojna Swiatowa, nieprawda?

Co Pan mysli?
Marek

Lady in Red,

By your logic, "we", i.e. Brits and Yanks, should all be learning Russian, Polish, German, Chinese, what have you, like mad so that those groups needn't bother to learn English ---:):)!!

Or have we simply become too lazy as well as smug?

I seem to recall somwhere, that around fifty to sixty odd years ago, Brits were all learning French with a vengeance. In fact, it was common, some say, that at Oxford and other schools, it was common for those who "read law" together to inquire if a fellow classmate spoke French. The common query was "French IS your language, isn't it, old man?"

Than again, just perhaps I'm mistaken.
Marek

Vincent,

"Confused"? Hardly, being as these languages are all so different from one another, despite numerous surface similarities.

Danish may look a lot like Norwegian, but that's where it ends....cold! I practically grew up with German at home, although I never spoke it until I was just a teenager and then pursued it seriously from beginning college onward, right on into grad school. You might even say, I've had total as many years of German as large numbers of university-trained Europeans have had of English.

Marek

Language / I know Russian language - will it help me learn Polish? [105]

Polson,

Yes, I love languages being as I'm a translator as well as a foreign language instructor by vocation.

Marek

Language / I know Russian language - will it help me learn Polish? [105]

Je puis lire francais, malheureurement je ne parle/"chatte" pas francais tres bien, parceque il y'a beaucoupe des anes passes depuis j'ete en France.

Od czasu do czasu czytam gazete po francusku, ale trwa duzy czas i musze uzywac slownik, bo BRAK MI SLOW!!

Tyvaar drojar det, innan jag kommer att kunna prata med andra manniskor paa franska.

Tja, aber kommt Zeit, kommt Rat!

Marek

Language / I know Russian language - will it help me learn Polish? [105]

I "speak", i.e. accurately communicate, roughly in half a dozen. I've learned though in total at the very least ten.

Marek

Language / I know Russian language - will it help me learn Polish? [105]

....."knulla" in Swedish and "knulle" in Danish DON'T mean the same thing--::):)!!!
For that matter, "knappa" (with a-umlaut) in Swedish vs. "knaebe" in Danish can also get you into hot water.......

Marek

Language / I know Russian language - will it help me learn Polish? [105]

Polson,

Again it's similar to a Portuguese (Brazilian or European!) and a Spanish speaker, a Dutchman and a German, a Dane and a Norwegian etc.

I don't really know Ukrainian. As a modestly "fluent", yet with my disclaimer of not always accurate, Polish speaker, I can recognize plenty of written Ukrainian.

There are though, those ever so tricky false friends.

They abound in some languages. A humorous example between Dutch and German:

UITVAART/Dutch = funeral ("pogrzeb" in Polish, by the way)
vs.
AUSFAHRT/German = highway exit

In Scandinavian languages, namely Swedish, Danish and Norwegian, the differences can lead to erotic jokes!

Marek

Language / I know Russian language - will it help me learn Polish? [105]

Polson,

Poles can understand spoken Ukrainian (not really so the other way round!) more easily than Russian because of the accent, some grammatical differences and, of course, numerous "false friends" e.g. "pismo/pismo" etc. Ukrainian has many more vocabulary similarities with Polish than with Russian. However, Ukrainian pronunciation is sounds much closer to Russian than to Polish.

Educated Poles can probably READ a Czech newspaper, but are clueless when listening to the same news reported by an announcer on TV. This is not to say, they can understand written Czech fluently by any means, at least what a journalist acquaintance from Prague once told me.

Russians on the other hand can understand both written and spoken Bulgarian as well as Serbian, owing to the simple fact, among others, that the former are also written in the Cyrillic alphabet.

Finally, Poles can understand Russian to a degree with greater facility than in the reverse, certainly in my experience.

Marek

Language / Pan/Pani/Panie name variation [9]

Nothing to add here to what Krzysztof just posted.

Marek

Language / Pan/Pani/Panie name variation [9]

Me-thinks!

As to your question about "Dzien dobra!" for a woman as opposed to a man, this NEVER would happen in Polish (save as some sarcastic linguistic joke). The male/female thing in gender changes, occurs solely in the past tenses of verbs, e.g. "Ja spalem" (I was sleeping - masculine) vs. "Ja spalam" for the feminine.

Language / I know Russian language - will it help me learn Polish? [105]

Hi!

Learning a Slavic language such as Russian after having thoroughly learned a related Slavic language, i.e. Polish. makes sense. The question though as to whether it will "help" you to learn the latter, may or may not be the case.

I did the opposite, having learned to read Russian after having already become fluent in Polish. Problems arise if you started to learn Polish as a beginner while not yet being conversant with Russian. Here, the question of false friend vocabulary, differences in pronunciation and even some grammatical variations, enter into the picture. The result then might be that you never actually learn either language completely and from that point continue to be plagued by confusion because both languages were never learned thoroughly enough from the outset.

Marek

Language / Pan/Pani/Panie name variation [9]

Your question in the example "Pani Mario!" concerns the use of the vocative feminine, whereby "Maria" becomes "Mario".

"Pan" is used in simple commands ("Chodz Pan!" = Come!) or indicative sentences ("Tujest Pan Kowalski."= This is Mr. Kowalski. or "Czy pan jest inzenyerem?" = Are you an engineer, sir?)

"Pani" is the female form for the above.
"Panie" is the vocative (seventh case!) masculine, e.g. "Serwus, Panie Witoldzie!" = Greetings, Witold!

The changes are numerous depending of course upon the respective case:

Dzien dobry, Panu Kowalskiemu! = (Dat. masc. "Good evening, Mr. Kowalski!"
Gdzie jest Pan Kowalski? = nom. masc. "Where is Mr. Kowalski?"
To jest ksziaska Pana Kowalskiego. = gen. masc. "Here is Mr. Kowalski's book.
Panie Kowalski, pozdrawiam! voc. masc. = Greetings to you, Mr. Kowalski!

The rest is rather extensive. This is just an intro.
Powodzenia!

Marek

Language / Could anyone check my polish? What can i improve? [44]

Hei, Porta!
Ja, det vil jeg gjerne. Hvorfra kommer du saa? Jeg var een gang i Oslo aa det var jo mange aar siden. Jeg ved, at jeg skriver "riksmaal"/"dansk"/ nu, aa ikkje rigtigt "norsk". Men jeg kan forstaa alting, som du har skrivit aa kan laese norske aviser uten problem. Har du ogsaa vaert i Polen? Jeg kenner Szczecin.

Vi snakker mere lite senere.
Ha' det godt!

Marek

Language / Could anyone check my polish? What can i improve? [44]

Polson,
I learned those languages because it's practical to know related languages, plus, contrary to popular belief, Scandinavians as a rule have a bit too much of the "look Ma, no hands!"-approach to English. They often, though not always, assume, "Hey, it looks easy, we hear enough (frequently low-level US-speakers in contemporary music and movies!!) English everyday, ergo, we can speak English perfectly!"

Far from the case, as I'm sure Porta can readily attest! I've no problem with e.g. Norwegians saying they like chatting in English with foreigners in order to improve or practice their own English skills. All too often though, they arrogantly feel they can speak English better than foreigners could speak Norwegian (hence resisting needed correction). Europeans are sometimes lazy about English particularly, since, unlike Americans, English is considered soooo important, it's often not cultivated. Americans usually have to search far and wide for someone to practice a foreign language with, making the US-language major more serious about improving their foreign-language knowledge.

Marek

Language / Could anyone check my polish? What can i improve? [44]

Hejsan, Polson!

Jaha, eet nordiskt spraak till? Det ar en utmaning, tror jag. Hur lange har du lart dig norska och svenska?

Lar du dig ocksaa polska?
Marek

Language / Could anyone check my polish? What can i improve? [44]

Hej, Porta!

Naa, snakker du ogsaa norsk? Jeg laeser norsk, men snakker, skriver, forstaar dansk aa svensk.

Hvorfaar laer du dig polsk? Kan du tysk?

Marek

Czesc, Porta!

Od ilu lat uczysz sie jezyka polskiego?
Marek

Language / Pomagac, pomóc [6]

"Pomoc" is also the noun in Polish "help", e.g. "Dziekuje za pomoc." = Thank you for your help.
"Pomagac" is the imperfective verb form.

Marek

Language / Should I learn both Polish and German [147]

Hueg!
Which do you find harder, Polish or German? Your German seems quite fluent.

Marek

Language / Should I learn both Polish and German [147]

Osiol,
The issue here is not whether speaking a language is impressive. The question becomes more one of maintaining standards for those languages, hereby designated "world languages", in this case making the claim for English, so that they remain at a commensurate level that facilitates, not merely approximates, communication on every plane, in the latter instance, due only to a lack of the necessary vocabulary.

Marek

Language / Should I learn both Polish and German [147]

Servus "Huegerl",

recht hast du in dem Fall! Tatsache aber bleibt, dass die Anzahl der englischkundigen Oesterreicher geringer ist, als die der englischkundigen Deutschen, Hollaender oder Skandinavier.

Demgegegenueber kaempfen die Polen immer noch mit der Sprache, ziehen sogar Deutsch als Englisch vor, da sie es halt besser koennen, geben trotzdem zu, Englisch sei "cooler"--::)!!!

Marek

Language / Should I learn both Polish and German [147]

Michal.

As you know from my Forum-Profile, I am, among other things, a foreign-language instructor of both English and German, as well as a translator.
English seems to be one of the few, if not the only language with which I'm familiar, which can be rountinely butchered with impunity by non-native speakers, let alone, so-called specialists. As the "world language", it seems to have become world public property too, meaning, any and all can get their paws all over the language, frequently without ANY qualifications!

To be a Polish instructor, on the other hand, at either the Kosciuszko or Pilsudski Institutes in New York, being merely a bilingual Pole from Greenpoint, Bklyn, USA is not enough: you've got to be a native Pole, born and preferrably educated, in Poland!!

And that's how it should be for all languages (unless, like those such as myself, true, unaccented native fluency can be attested to in both languages being taught). That is to say, although I speak Polish, Dutch or Swedish and several other languages, I would never profess to being competent enough to teach or translate INTO them. Except in my case for German, no institution would hire me for same and be worth much of anything!

Marek

Language / Should I learn both Polish and German [147]

........thus further polluting the English mother tongue!!!
Yet another disgrace. To wstyt, ze panstwo nie zakazac illegalne szkoly.

Marek

Language / Should I learn both Polish and German [147]

Michal,

quote = "They didn't speak it at all...."

Probably their Russian language competence far exceeded their English, but, being post-war Germans, wouldn't (or couldn't!) admit as much, since Russian wasn't exactly considered "cool" --:):)

Silly!

Marek

Michal,

Foreign languages were never terribly popular in the UK, French perhaps, being the notable exception.

I have met a few Brits taking holiday on the Continent who actually DID manage a few smidges of German during the time I was visiting Berlin, but they were the rare few, to be sure. Such tourists one could count on the fingers of one hand (if he were missing two fingers!!)

Marek

PS
More often than not though, I'm afraid the majority I've encountered seem to take a bit of the benighted attitude of John Cleese's Basil Faulty character in "The Germans", i.e. "Oh, they don't speak English?? Well then, that's their problem now, isn't it!", heard snapping when asked if he could assist a group of monolingual German visitors to the hotel.

In the Greenpoint district of Brooklyn, New York, not far from where my wife and I live, Polish day schools, nurseries etc. have been springing up like mad of late.

Typical though of numerous immigrant communities here in the US, often native Poles, Chinese, Russians etc. are hired to be, of all things, English-language instructors for their own at local schools, institutes etc.

Many Poles, for instance, therefore learn accented, grammatically poor English from Polish teachers who often don't have a good enough command of the target language!!

Marek

Language / Should I learn both Polish and German [147]

Osiol,

Hitler, as you know, was not even German, but Austrian! His accent however is Bavarian, to be exact, "Upper German", such as the type still heard today in and around Nuernberg, technically called "Franconian" (Fraenkisch). The latter roll their "r" sounds on the tip of the tongue (not the uvular or gutteral "r" of, say, French or Northern Standard German), appear to overpronounce schwa-sounds such as final "e" letters in words such as "muedE", "FuessE" etc., soften their "s" sounds, and in general, sound hauntingly similar to the Fuehrer's accent, as often caricatured!

Marek

Language / Should I learn both Polish and German [147]

Soli,

A myth about German is it's harsh sound. Really, it depends as much upon the region where it is spoken as both what is being spoken as well as the stereotypes brought to it from movies, etc.

Marek

Language / Should I learn both Polish and German [147]

"Who learns German?" begs the question. Unlike Latin or Ancient Greek, both 'dead languages', so to speak, German was always the language which bound both East and West, geopolitically. While Germans never had to learn f. ex. Polish, Poles, Russians, Hungarians and others, ALL had to learn German, a language, much as with Russian, English or Chinese, of tremendous historical, therefore, economic, importance!

Marek

PS
Don't forget either, East Germany, a former Soviet satelite, required Russian instruction in its schools, not English!

Language / Should I learn both Polish and German [147]

Michal.

"Who..?" The Eastern European States, among them our Polish friends. German is still THE required second language of science throughout most of the civilized world, at least, at universities. Only in the areas of informational science has German been trumped by English! I think you're asking a question purposely to which you already know the answer, just to bait me slightly, which is perfectly fine, incidentally, I certainly don't take offense. My exchanges thus far in this forum have always been most cordial and I presume they shall continue so.

German is admittedly a much more precise language than English. As Polish, for example, has it's demanding aspectual usage compared with our rather vague series of tenses, German uses word order, case agreement and various conditional voices to a far greater degree of exactness than does English. As this is a Polish-English, and not a German-language, forum, I shall spare us all the litany of German difficulties.

A final note. As a translator, the rate per word/hr. in German as well as the major Slavic languages, is twice as high as in Spanish, considered an infinitely less "challenging" language! Hence, I decided to specialize in German and Slavic languages (surprise, surprise--:) )

Marek

Language / Should I learn both Polish and German [147]

Osiol =quote "Across the US, I believe it is still English."

If you count misspelled signage in major US-cities, requisite bilingual directions for every public service institution, the fact that in the New York area, "Telemundo Uno" has more listeners than Fox 5 News ever had and that in certain communities throughout the country, English is NOT REQUIRED even for voting and obtaining a valid driving license, frankly, I'm no longer so sure.

Marek

Language / Should I learn both Polish and German [147]

"Did I have to study Mickiewicz beforehand...?"

Well, it would make the reference a lot clearer.
Marek

Mihal,
Sorry to disillusion you, but it is rather English that is "dying on the world stage", and not Polish or German, the latter at least, still immensely practical, since, when foreign German majors DO actually speak German, generally, they know what they're doing, unlike the Germans who take all too many liberties with American slang and often don't know their arses from their elbows about grammar, idiom or style!!!

Marek

PS
In Florida, New York, LA and Chicago, Korean, Spanish, Russian and Chinese have long since trumped English as the reigning lingua franca. Perhaps, indeed hopefully in Britain, it's slightly different