Language / czy../trzy.. - Full assimilation in Polish [22]

Michał,

Is it possible then that we are seeing the advent of 'Basic Polish', a kind of simplified language a la 'Basic English', or New Speak, whereby this semi-bastardized version in the words aforementioned might become standard e.g. in English 'thru' instead of 'through' or something like this, 'poczebujesz' not 'potrzebujesz' etc.?

Language / czy../trzy.. - Full assimilation in Polish [22]

Darius, Michał et al.,

Slang is tricky. As is it already deemed "substandard" by the native speakers who use it naturally as their mother tongue, it's rather hard to, so to speak "teach slang", since essentially, it's tantamount to "teaching wrong language"!!

I know German as well as English, in terms of accent/pronounciation, vocab., grammar, register, the whole nine yards, i.e. I'm bilingual. I'm NOT though a native-born German speaker, I would therefore NEVER attempt Turko-German Berlin slang. I'd sound like a moron at worst, at best, as a foreigner trying to sound "cool" and mimic German-Turkish slang, which is obviously foreign to me.

Learning slang, in my opinion, is helpfull for aural/visual recognition, not for common daily usage, whereby as an outsider, you'd immediately be pegged "a foreigner"!!

Language / czy../trzy.. - Full assimilation in Polish [22]

Bondi, it's roughly the equivalent of 'I gonna', 'I wanna' in US-English, rather than the full phrase. Many languages have this type of sociolect (or is it an idiolect, I really can't remember!); there's apache in Paris, Tuerko-Deutsch in and around Berlin and I'm sure in other language groups as well.

Does this type of assimilation process occur in Hungarian too? My knowledge of the language, while adequate, is still rather rudimentary. I was spoiled, frankly, when I visited there. Everybody seemed to speak excellent German. I just didn't even bother much with Hungarian (much less with English!!).

Language / Use of prefixes in f.s tense/rules for forming them? [23]

Interesting, Krzysztof!

Enjoyed the re-learning of that which I should have long since remembered and which I ought to have been able to apply automatically. -:)-:)!! LOL

My sources are rather vague! When would I in fact use 'zakończyć', if 'ukończyć' is so close in aspectual meaning/usage?

I'm at a loss here, I must confess.

Language / Use of prefixes in f.s tense/rules for forming them? [23]

Apologies, Darius! Occasionally I post without consulting my pocket 'Poprawna Polszczyzna', which normally is on me at all times. I've had it for about as long as I can remember and has served me well (...up till now..-:) LOL)

Translation of your sentence: "I suddenly realized, that I didn't have a cup of coffee today."

In German, "Es ist mir ploetzlich eingefallen, dass ich heute keinen Kaffee getrunken habe.

Odd that Polish has no word for "sleet"?

German doesn't either! They call it simply "der Schneeregen", literally "snow rain", not all too disimilar to Polish.

Darius,

Occasionally, i confuse 'skończyć się' and 'zakończyć'. I realize I shouldn't, but, as I often find myself still unintentionally translating in my head from German, I want to make sure I'm on the right track.

Zakończyłem moje studie na uniwersytecie. = I completed my college studies.
Skończyłem się! = I'm done/Finished! (i.e. with an activity, such as with a computer station when surrendering my place to another person.)

Much appreciate it!

Language / Use of prefixes in f.s tense/rules for forming them? [23]

Dariusz,

Good point. I simply meant that English on occasion appears to use more words in basic constructions which are rendered superfluous in Polish!

'Świcieć' means 'to become daybreak', if I'm not mistaken about the spelling of the verb! English has 'to dawn', but here the meaning is completely different from 'świcieć'! In English 'to dawn' means instead 'to become clear to someone', e.g. 'It finally dawned on me that he was lying.'

In this way, as in many others, Polish more resembles German among the non-Slavic languages, than English:

'świcieć = daemmern ('Es daemmert')
'mglić = nebelig werden ('Es nebelt')
etc...

I am mistaken on several points. 'Świcieć' means 'to shine', 'świciać' means 'to become daybreak'. Secondly, 'mglić' isn't Polish! In German too, 'nebeln' should read 'VERnebeln' = to become foggy

Language / Use of prefixes in f.s tense/rules for forming them? [23]

Furthermore, Polish has no separate verb for 'to snow' or 'to rain' (much less 'to sleet'): pada śnieg (not "śniegować"), pada deszcz (and not "deszczować", for instance) etc.

Whereas English uses the dummy subject "It's pouring.."/"It was pouring", Polish prefers the more literal DESZCZ LEJE....., resp. DESZCZ LA£

Language / Use of prefixes in f.s tense/rules for forming them? [23]

Strzyga,

Silly me, I ought to have guessed that we share the same profession, since your English appears truthfully speaking, excellent!! As fellow translators, you and I might post endlessly on this endlessly fascinating topic, both of personal as well professional interest to me, at least.

Indeed, Wittgenstein had many theories on the use of language. However, as a trained linguist, the Sapir-Whorf Hypothesis concerning the acquisition of language instinctually vs. instiutionally, remains a serious bone of contention among language learners!

As regards German, you remind me of Mark Twain when he once noted in his essay 'The Awful German Language' (Straszny Język Niemiecki), that he would rather decline two drinks than one German adjective.

Well, perhaps then better off remaining 'virtual strangers'.
Cheers!

UK, Ireland / WHY DO POLISH PEOPLE THAT COME TO ENGLAND CAN'T SPEAK ENGLISH? [118]

The title of this post 'WHY CAN'T POLISH (correct: THE POLES!!) SPEAK ENGLISH? really begs the question a bit. I think the same question might be asked of any European group, perhaps moreso the Poles, Spaniards, or Italians, but even the 'pluperfect' Germans aren't exempt here, sorry to admit.

As soon as the EU starts making English-language film, both on TV and in the cinemas, MANDITORY in English, NOT dubbed into the native language of the country being screened, the sooner Poles and everyone else will improve their English. This will never happen, of course, 'cuz it's just too !@#@%#*-ing expensive!!! -:)

Language / Use of prefixes in f.s tense/rules for forming them? [23]

'Logic' is something other then 'precision'. German, for example, is considered to be a very precise language, yet hardly logical, what with it's myriad case endings for articles as well as nouns (occasionally) and particularly adjectives.

English therefore, Germanically derived, is hardly any more logical than Polish. Compare the differences:

Będę pisał. = Ich werde schreiben, I will write (or: I will be writing)
Napisałem(-łam) = Ich werde geschrieben haben/Ich habe geschrieben/Ich schrieb, I will have written (or: I have written, I wrote)

Is Polish though any more or less precise than German and English?

I really meant 'Będę pisał' or 'Napiszę' = Future imperfective vs. perfective

Language / Polish language problems (orthography) [47]

Tomasz.

Mine was a literal translation from the German. Am grateful (wdzięczny) for your assistance.

Language / Polish language problems (orthography) [47]

Thanks again!!

I guess I was translating from the German: "Ich lasse mich von Euch mal gerne korrigieren!"

Language / Polish language problems (orthography) [47]

Dziękuję, Panu!! Chętnie kazuję sie poprawiać od Ciebie/Was!! -:)

Language / Use of prefixes in f.s tense/rules for forming them? [23]

Strzyga,

As far as tenses go, Polish is a lot more intuitive than, for example, English. I still though am occisionally confused with the precise difference between "Będę spać." vs. "Będę spał." I was told by my former Polish teacher years ago, that the former is more colloquial and the latter more classic, i.e. standard!

She was however an older woman at the time and may not have kept up with the nuances in development of the language. -:)

Language / Polish language problems (orthography) [47]

'I hope (BEZ PRZECINKU) my mistakes aren't very "wkurzające".....'

No, not really. Merely the mistakes of the typical Polish native speaker in English. Most Europeans rarely have the chance to practice their English with educated native speakers, so the result is the general level one finds on the Continent nowadays.

Language / Polish language problems (orthography) [47]

Tczesio,

You write phonetically ("....thing.." not "think..") and sometimes make errors in the tenses. Other than that, along with the spelling/capitalization, your English isn't too, too bad.

Ćwiczenie tworzy mistrza!

Language / Use of prefixes in f.s tense/rules for forming them? [23]

I should have added in my post that prefixed forms sometimes give a future meaning, just as you corrected in my sentence! "Piszę list do Polski." = I'm writing...

vs. "Napiszę list do Polski." = I will write a letter to Poland. etc..

Appreciate your kind amendments!! -:)

Language / Polish language problems (orthography) [47]

Tczesio,

I mistakenly sent you by e-mail that 'people' isn't plural in English!!! Of course, I meant the opposite, since I was correcting one of numerous English errors in your post to me. -:)

Language / Use of prefixes in f.s tense/rules for forming them? [23]

A given prefix, e.g. 'po', 'z'. 'za' etc. can signal a change to the perfective from imperfective form, such as 'POdziękować' from 'dziękować' and so forth.

'Podziękuję za miły wieczór!' = I wish to/would like to thank you for a lovely evening. (I'm thanking you right now.)

'Dziękuję za pomóc!' = Thank you for your help! (I thank you generally)

Language / Polish language problems (orthography) [47]

"You've spiked my curiosity..."

...not with LSD, I hope! -:) LOL

No F15, it wasn't a typo. I simply abhor using the Lord's name in vain. In fact, I grew up bilingual here in the States with German and English. Polish was a much later acquitision, but scarcely an afterthought.

Good luck in your learning Polish! Powodzenia z uczenia języka polskiego!

Language / Polish language problems (orthography) [47]

F15,

We might say "Thank G_d for 1,2,3.!" but just think of the poor Polish native speaker learning English which appears so lacking in grammatical apparatus, compared with most other languages!! Poles probably are looking for where 'to put' the grammar, so to speak, whereas the English native speaker wonders, Geez, what next?"

All depends on your perspective.

Language / Polish language problems (orthography) [47]

.......Furthermore, Polish is the only extant (surviving) Slavic language with the nasals 'ą' and 'ę'. Russian, Ukrainian, Bulgarian and Czech have all lost this peculiarity of modern Polish.

The problem with Slavic languages, is essentially the same as for any languages from related families, for instance Danish and Norwegian, German and Dutch; false friends, i.e. lexical senemes whose meaning appears similar to identical, but has another, even opposite, meaning e.g. 'ogród' (garden) in Polish whose root 'gród' is related to the proto-Slavic 'gorod', later 'grad' as in Russian place names 'StalinGRAD', 'LeninGRAD' etc., or 'pismo' in Polish vs. 'pismo' in Russian.

In terms of syntax however, knowing one Slavic language will certainly help in learning another. The numbering system is pretty close too.

Language / Polish language problems (orthography) [47]

Maggi,

Greg is correct about this "English is more logical" fallacy! English orthography is perhaps the most chaotic of any known tongue. Indeed, the fact that regrettably, most Americans (but not necessarily most English speakers, take bilingual Brits and many Canadians, even outside French-speaking areas) are monilingual only reinforces the thinking that their language is the one which makes the most sense. HOW CAN THEY COMPARE??

Frankly, it's a tiresome fallacy at this stage. It also supports the need for Americans to use English-speaking foreigners abroad, frequently as a crutch for their own linguistic laziness, even concerning their mother language of American English.

Many US-tourists report back how either "everybody in Europe speaks fluent English!", or, "I thought more people would speak better English." This forum is a perfect example; English-speaking Poles make dozens of errors in their English, yet English-speaking Polish learners don't speak up. Is it that rude to bring up politely someone's mistakes, although the other person is trying to help you to learn their language?

Language / How Many of you love the Polish Language? [79]

Germans, moreso than the Austrians or even the German Swiss, often require a super long 'thawing out' period! I too found their aloofness rather offputting at first. To be sure, I associated Germany as a country populated by blond, blue-eyed, methodical, rather plodding giants, square jawed and implaccable.

Quite recently in fact, I could have sworn I was seeing a group of Northern German tourists at the museum......when it turned out to be Poles!!! -:) LOL

One can never be too careful, I guess.

Okgirl66!

I don't know where exactly in Germany you were, but I pity you your lamentable experiences with the German language. While I grew up here in the States, having lived for a time in Germany, I had the advantage of being raised almost bilingual, I therefore may hear the language differently from someone who was exposed to it for the first time as an adult.

While I also appreciate your comments regarding German, I do respectfully disagree!
As regards Polish, yer "a-preachin' to the choir" on this end. Have long since been a "convert" to the Polish language and find its poetry as captivating as German, but for slightly different reasons!

Language / How Many of you love the Polish Language? [79]

Kamil,

Jeszcze język polski NIE zginąl!

Language / How Many of you love the Polish Language? [79]

Unless you're referring to Hollywood-German, German as a language isn't harsh at all! You have but to hear German poetry read by a great German actor, like Will Quadflieg reading Goethe etc. in order to experience the transluscent beauty of the German language.

Language / Most-used Polish verbs (and every-day sentences) [37]

Jaszczolt,

Jeg anbefaler ogsaa '301 Polish Verbs'. Maaske tilsvarer den til en haandbog paa dansk!

I can recommend '301 Polish Verbs' as well and thought perhaps it might correspond to a Danish-language guide on the same topic.

Til lykke! Powodzenia!

Language / How Many of you love the Polish Language? [79]

Osiol,

Go to your local library or order cassettes and digitally remastered CDs of these actors/actresses reading the works of Jarosław Iwaszkiewicz, Julian Tuwim etc.

They're not that hard to find!

Language / How Many of you love the Polish Language? [79]

Check out the poetry of Iwaszkiewicz or Julian Tuwim. Hearing it read aloud by the likes of a Hanna Stankówna or an Andrzej £apicki, great 50's acting star of Wajda film fame, is truly an experience!

Language / How Many of you love the Polish Language? [79]

Compared with Russian, Polish sounds rather excitable, almost feverishly upbeat in comparison with that of a viscous, slow-moving river which Russian often resembles, whereby every syllable seems drawn out for ultimate weight of meaning.

I was recently watching Eisenstein's 'Alexander Nevsky' with the late great Nikolai Tscherkassov as Nevsky. He was practically declaming each line of each phrase for rhetorical emphasis.

Polish actors appear to do this far less.

I find Polish especially beautiful however!