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czy../trzy.. - Full assimilation in Polish


Bondi 4 | 142  
9 May 2008 /  #1
Is 'full assimilation' considered sub-standard (or slang) in contemporary Polish, or is it just a matter of dialects?

To put it into practice: in words like trzy, potrzebuję, rz is softened to t (so it becomes sz according to the rule of partial assimilation in Polish). As far as I can hear, t doesn't assimilate rz completely: while I go on and say "czy" or "poczebuję", native speakers tend to say "t-szy", "pot-szebuje" etc. Am I being a bum with that? :o)
strzyga 2 | 993  
9 May 2008 /  #2
yes, it is indeed considered sub-standard and laughed at, you hear this kind of pronounciation mostly from "dresy" and other uneducated youths, so you'd be better off avoiding that :)
Marek 4 | 867  
9 May 2008 /  #3
Bondi, it's roughly the equivalent of 'I gonna', 'I wanna' in US-English, rather than the full phrase. Many languages have this type of sociolect (or is it an idiolect, I really can't remember!); there's apache in Paris, Tuerko-Deutsch in and around Berlin and I'm sure in other language groups as well.

Does this type of assimilation process occur in Hungarian too? My knowledge of the language, while adequate, is still rather rudimentary. I was spoiled, frankly, when I visited there. Everybody seemed to speak excellent German. I just didn't even bother much with Hungarian (much less with English!!).
z_darius 14 | 3,964  
9 May 2008 /  #4
To put it into practice: in words like trzy, potrzebuję, rz is softened to t (so it becomes sz according to the rule of partial assimilation in Polish). As far as I can hear, t doesn't assimilate rz completely: while I go on and say “czy” or “poczebuję”, native speakers tend to say “t-szy”, “pot-szebuje” etc. Am I being a bum with that? :o)

What you're looking at here is a kind of phonetic continuum. The correct versions (in the examples given) call only for some of the consonants to loose their voiced characteristics rz--> sz when voiced t precedes rz. Changing "trz" into "cz" is one bridge to far.
Michal - | 1,865  
9 May 2008 /  #5
or “poczebuję”,

This is indeed wrong and would sound more like a foreigner trying to speak Polish than polish slang. The Polish trz sounds quite different from the English 'sh' in the word sheep.
z_darius 14 | 3,964  
9 May 2008 /  #6
This is indeed wrong and would sound more like a foreigner trying to speak Polish than polish slang.

obviously, in Moscow they didn't teach you about Polish slang.
Marek 4 | 867  
9 May 2008 /  #7
Darius, Michał et al.,

Slang is tricky. As is it already deemed "substandard" by the native speakers who use it naturally as their mother tongue, it's rather hard to, so to speak "teach slang", since essentially, it's tantamount to "teaching wrong language"!!

I know German as well as English, in terms of accent/pronounciation, vocab., grammar, register, the whole nine yards, i.e. I'm bilingual. I'm NOT though a native-born German speaker, I would therefore NEVER attempt Turko-German Berlin slang. I'd sound like a moron at worst, at best, as a foreigner trying to sound "cool" and mimic German-Turkish slang, which is obviously foreign to me.

Learning slang, in my opinion, is helpfull for aural/visual recognition, not for common daily usage, whereby as an outsider, you'd immediately be pegged "a foreigner"!!
Michal - | 1,865  
9 May 2008 /  #8
Yes, but this is not slang but bad polish spoken by non Poles who find it difficult to sound natural with all the sounds of the language. This is understandable as many foreigners find problems with the English 'th' and there are, after all, two variations to make it more complicated still. To any German, the ending ich at the end of a word would never sound like the English 'ch' as in the word church. This is not slang but just a foreigners mistake.
Grzegorz_ 51 | 6,148  
9 May 2008 /  #9
Full assimilation in Polish

Interests: Lech, Okocim, Tyskie..... :)

You seem to be already assimilated...
Marek 4 | 867  
9 May 2008 /  #10
Michał,

Is it possible then that we are seeing the advent of 'Basic Polish', a kind of simplified language a la 'Basic English', or New Speak, whereby this semi-bastardized version in the words aforementioned might become standard e.g. in English 'thru' instead of 'through' or something like this, 'poczebujesz' not 'potrzebujesz' etc.?
Krzysztof 2 | 973  
9 May 2008 /  #11
while I go on and say “czy” or “poczebuję”, native speakers tend to say “t-szy”, “pot-szebuje” etc.

If you live in Poznań you can achieve a full assimilation with the local folks, most of them say "czy" (for trzy), "czeba" (for "trzeba") etc.

To sound more local you also have to make voiced consonants at the end of the word before another word beginning with a voiced consonant (for example: jak nie in Poznań is usually pronounce as "jag nie").

And learn the specific intonation in the questions.
z_darius 14 | 3,964  
9 May 2008 /  #12
Yes, but this is not slang but bad polish spoken by non Poles

Example of Polish slang:

czymta sie - trzymajcie sie

I never heard an English learner of Polish make that mistake. If anything, their "trz
sounds often like "ci"
Michal - | 1,865  
10 May 2008 /  #13
When I visited Częstochowa, many years ago there was a girl living in the same hostel who came from a small village and she said a lot of strange things such as zeby instead of żeby so that the initial rz sound sounded just like a normal 'z'-very strange indeed.
Marek 4 | 867  
10 May 2008 /  #14
The mountain regions of Poland as well, the so-called 'Góral'/Tatry area, are said to speak a Polish at tremendous variance from the Warsaw standard. Here though, is more a question of dialect usage rather than pure slang, I should think!
Seanus 15 | 19,672  
10 May 2008 /  #15
It is more dialectal but the endings and stress are very different
Michal - | 1,865  
10 May 2008 /  #16
There is a difference between accent, regional dialect and foreign mistakes.
Marek 4 | 867  
10 May 2008 /  #17
I recently glimpsed through a "Dictionary of Highlander Polish" (Słownik Gwara Góralskiej) and saw that on the pages after pages of listing all the variations between standard and mountain words, Polish 'zegar' is rendered as 'godzinnek' in the Highlander dialect.

How cute, I remember thinking! -:)
z_darius 14 | 3,964  
12 May 2008 /  #18
Polish 'zegar' is rendered as 'godzinnek' in the Highlander dialect.

not "godzinnik"?
Marek 4 | 867  
12 May 2008 /  #19
Probably! My error. -:) :) LOL
OP Bondi 4 | 142  
16 May 2008 /  #20
Well, thank you for all your replies, that’s all I wanted to know! So in a nutshell, according to a Polish “Received Pronounciation” (“literary Polish” or whatever we should call it), it is better to avoid that. Except if I plan to go to Poznań. :)

Marek: yes, it does occur in Hungarian, but the reason is that we do not like “consonant collisions” (sorry, I do not know the linguistical term). One good example is the word kluczkulcs [key]: ‘u’ and ‘l’ was swapped to ease pronounciation. In conjugation, when a word gets a new ending, pronounciation assimilates the collided consonants into one, wherever possible, or a vowel comes in.

Btw. if I was to speak with a foreign accent, I would just say things like podziebuje. (I.e. ‘t’ would become ‘d’ before the ‘rz’.) In my language, the harder, voiced sonants have a tendency to win.

Interests: Lech, Okocim, Tyskie..... :)

You seem to be already assimilated...

Mutual relationship that is. I assimilate Poles with my home-made ślivovica. :)
Marek 4 | 867  
16 May 2008 /  #21
Bondi,

I don't speak Hungarian really, but I'm sure that there are examples of consonant clusters in that language, e.g. spelled 'RakoCZi', but pronounced 'Rakotsi' or the family name 'Czerny', pronounced 'Tserny' etc. As far as standard assimilation, would you consider 'ny', elided as in 'Dohany', spoken as though it were 'dawwhAYn', rather than 'dawhani', etc.?
z_darius 14 | 3,964  
20 May 2008 /  #22
When I visited Częstochowa, many years ago

Yeah, in Czestochowa weird things can happen. It's a city known for a miracle or two.

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