History / Col.Jozef Swiatlo-Secret agent, torturer, CIA-collaborator to be tried? [145]


Your short term memory loss I guess :-))

History / Col.Jozef Swiatlo-Secret agent, torturer, CIA-collaborator to be tried? [145]


Yes at last! Lets call them Polish if Poland is where they were born.

Around 120,000 Poles stayed in UK after WWII and I would consider them Polish. Some of them reaching high positions in British establishment.



This must be the other part?

Would these be the Polish Jews you said were in control of the communist state... they all worked together now old and new ... that would be it... another joke ;-)


No.
I am saying all involved should be have been brought to trial. I am also questioning why only Helena Wolińska's extradition seems to have been so vigorously pursued yet no else seems to have been? How many extradition warrants were made to Israel? Why were there no trials in absentia this has happened in other serious crime cases around the world and could have happened to Helena Wolińska and the others you say escaped justice in Israel? At least this would have been justice of sorts.

And where are the prosecutions of those listed by IPN as being involved in Pilecki's state murder? Obviously the majority in Poland could be that bothered about it or it would have happened.

BTW. That warm milk did work... my bones feel stronger and it is so relaxing after a hard days entertainment reading your posts :-)))

History / Any apologies about Sikorski's 'murder'? [95]


Exactly that !!!

History / Any apologies about Sikorski's 'murder'? [95]


If you have reached the limits of your understanding such is life ;-)


Maybe the authors of these history books simply have greater understanding than you.

History / Col.Jozef Swiatlo-Secret agent, torturer, CIA-collaborator to be tried? [145]


It is your assertion that all of those involved in state murder of Fieldorf were 'Jews' and that the polish security apparatus was controlled by Polish Jews yet 63% of MBP cadre were not Polish Jews. You have no answers as to why those accused of Feildorf's murder have never been brought to trial though they live(d) openly in Poland whereas years were spent trying to extradite just one person from UK. You imply that because they were 'Jews' (your term not mine) they were not touched? So what about those non-Jewish Poles that were invoved in Fieldorf case - you imply that there weren't any! Which stretches credibilty to the nth degree, even for soemone as thick as me.

Based on your assertion that the communist security services were controlled by Polish Jews and claimed knowledge that all perpetartors in the Fieldorf case were Polish Jews; I asked you how many Polish Jews you think were implicated in the other widely known state murder; that of Pilecki. Given that the IPN list the names of those they think were responsible I would have thought you might have an opinion can't you tell from their names who is a Polish Jew or not? Or do you think they have all, like Jozef Swiatlo, changed their names to avoid being recognised as Polish Jews?

I am not obsessed with 'Jews' Polish or otherwise but when some writes



then these crass statements deserves response.

I do enjoy warm milk ;-)


I don't profess to have any interest in either political science or politics. Hence my question:


Now if you are saying that PiS party actually a left-wing party so they would not want to prosecute any former communists for the state murders of Fieldorf and Pilecki even though they are well known and some still living in Poland that would be understandable. But which party was in government during the years of extradition proceedings against Helena Wolińska? Presumably if PiS is left-wing it does not support lustration and supports the so-called 'thick line'?

History / Col.Jozef Swiatlo-Secret agent, torturer, CIA-collaborator to be tried? [145]


Now I may well be thick but even I can see this statement of yours doesn't square with Poland's three time failed extradition attempts (lasting over several years or more) for Helena Wolińska-Brus but no correspondingly determined effort to bring anyone else involved to trial for same crimes against Fieldorf notwithstanding those that are in living Israel—whom you say would never give up their criminals? It would be fair to say that even Poland doesn't give up its own criminals living openly in Warsaw and until recently still living on good pensions... what a joke!


I am so glad you are not my secretary because you have no answers to even the simplest question of your opinion on how many perpetrators in the Pilecki state murder (listed by the IPN as being involved) you think are Polish Jews? Maybe not enough for you to make a point ;-))


Isn't PiS center-rightist conservative party or maybe you have in mind for Poland a resurgent anti-semitic, anti-communist, anti-capitalist, fascistic ONR?

But wait a minute, I remember you chose to escape Poland for a better life in the free 'west' so Polish politics are not relevant to you :-)))

History / Col.Jozef Swiatlo-Secret agent, torturer, CIA-collaborator to be tried? [145]


Actually until anyone is brought to trial how can they be guilty of executing anyone? It is just an accusation until found guilty at a trial.

Pensions taken away.....and what about their liberty? Has PiS taken this away? Are they going to bring these people in Warsaw to trial? Again I repeat my question: why was a 'root and branch' prosecution not carried out?


Let's look at your proposed possible excuse for no other persons being tried for Fieldorfs murder by the state and say it took 10 years for the turn over of power (that you said didn't take place so swiftly) then what about the next 10 years?

So it took six of these years to build a case against just Maria Gurowska who couldn't have been so clearly implicated in the Fieldorf case or were the Polish investigators being directed not to push Gurowska's case to trial? If so by whom?

Is it true that she just didn't turn up to stand trial?

If it is true then why was she not forced into trial? Maybe the evidence wasn't that strong and no one wanted the risk of her case to be thrown out?


No idea... you tell me? If he was then that is just another name to the IPN list of perpetrators in Pilecki's murder by the state. How many of those listed on IPN website are being sent for trial? How many are still alive in Poland or are they all living in Israel?

History / Col.Jozef Swiatlo-Secret agent, torturer, CIA-collaborator to be tried? [145]


What is your answer to that question? What is the excuse for Poland about those still alive and living in Warsaw? That they are Polish Jews; is that the excuse? Even though Polish Jews are supposed to have controlled the communist state... now it is now longer communist controlled what is the reason given? So why did it take six years to build a case against Maria Gurowska? Was it not so clear that she was implicated in Fieldorf state sanctioned murder? I thought it was plain she was from the outset?

I repeat my question: why was a 'root and branch' prosectution not carried out?

And are all those involved listed by the IPN as being resposnsible in the Pilecki case Polish Jews? How many of those the IPN identified actually stood trial for Pilecki's execution?

History / Any apologies about Sikorski's 'murder'? [95]


You have it exactly.
Roosevelt and Churchill 'speculated' that there was a possibility that Stalin would sign a separate deal with Hitler and decided this could not be allowed to happen if the Nazis were to be defeated. And not forgetting that the western Allies needed Russia's support to defeat the Japanese in Manchuria. As it turned out the successful dropping of the two atomic bombs on Japan obviated the need for Soviet support but at the time of Yalta the atomic bomb had not even been tested ( first 'A' bomb tested on July 16, 1945) so Stalin's Red Army was to be needed. If the atomic bomb hadn't worked who can say the Red Army wouldn't have be needed to end WWII?

It may seem like a smoke screen to you but maybe Churchill and Roosevelt had a better idea of where they saw the threats at the time than you do now.

History / Col.Jozef Swiatlo-Secret agent, torturer, CIA-collaborator to be tried? [145]


And again from IPN website what about:


Were any of these men indited apart from Major Czesław £apiński? Surely they could be seen as equally as complicit of the state murder of Pilecki? £apiński was only vice-prosecutor.

Then you have the interogators lieutenants: S. £yszkowski, W. Krawczyński, J. Kroszel, T. Słowianek, E. Chimczak, and S. Alaborski in presence of the interrogation officer of the Ministry, lieutenant M. Krawczyński, and a prosecutor of the Public Prosecutor's Head Office, Major Rychlik?

All whom you gloss over although the IPN state in their words '... lieutenants: S. £yszkowski, W. Krawczyński, J. Kroszel, T. Słowianek, E. Chimczak, and S. Alaborski – men who were especially famous for their savagery'

Of the thirteen named above as being involved in Pileckik's state murder how many were Polish Jews? Be interested to see if Polish Jews as a group were over-represented in this small sample of named perpetrators in Pilecki's death?

I would include these people as complicit:


Why was a 'root and branch' prosectution not carried out?

I am sure that a similar number of persons were involved in the Fieldorf case.


As Harry said ... why was this allowed when the extradition of just one person was persued for so many years? Why do you think they weren't prosecuted?

History / Col.Jozef Swiatlo-Secret agent, torturer, CIA-collaborator to be tried? [145]

But actually Harry does makes a good point?

Who else was indited to stand trial for the state murder of Fieldorf?

No one can seriously believe these alleged crimes (on the presumtion of innocence until proven guilty by trial) were perpetrated by just one person? What about all the levels of people that must have been involved in the Fieldorf trial from the arresting officer upwards?

Likewise in Pilecki's case there must have been more that just Polish prime minister Józef Cyrankiewicz and prosecutor Czesław £apiński involved? £apiński I believe rather fittingly died in hospital on Captain Pilecki street in Warsaw? So was Czesław £apiński a Polish Jew?

What about interogators (From IPN website:) lieutenants: S. £yszkowski, W. Krawczyński, J. Kroszel, T. Słowianek, E. Chimczak, and S. Alaborski in presence of the interrogation officer of the Ministry, lieutenant M. Krawczyński, and a prosecutor of the Public Prosecutor's Head Office, Major Rychlik...were these guys brought to trial?

History / Col.Jozef Swiatlo-Secret agent, torturer, CIA-collaborator to be tried? [145]


What about all of the others involved in Pilecki's trial and execution?
From the 'arresting' officers upwards?
Have any charges been brought by IPN against those still living who were dierctly involved, I guess there must be some still living?

History / germany prepares for invasion of Poland [43]


And then they came to Stalingrad... and they were history... a Red Army history ;-))

History / Any apologies about Sikorski's 'murder'? [95]

Maybe this provides an answer:


Roosevelt and especially Churchill could not allow any such separate accord between USSR and Germany to take place for obvious reasons. Stalin would have know this and as the arch manipulator he was able to play Roosevelt and Churchill (who at best were polite but reluctant allies) off against each other for his own ends—Stalin did not get to be head of state of the USSR by being anything other than ruthlessly adept at political maneuvering.

History / Col.Jozef Swiatlo-Secret agent, torturer, CIA-collaborator to be tried? [145]

All criminals should face trial. Period. The British had a moral duty to make sure Wolińska
faced her accussers in court, however the British legal system decided otherwise and the British government is bound by these descisons.

However in cases like Wolińska I believe these trials should be held in the Hague where there is a better chance of justice being served rather than just revenge. I doubt very much (and I think you will agree ) that Wolińska would have received an unprejudiced trial in Poland?

I am not implying for one moment that I believe that the trials Wolińska herself presided over in communist Poland were in anyway fair or were more than just show trials, in which innocent Poles were victims of state sanctioned murder—Fieldorf and Pilecki being two out of many thousands.

Was Polish prime minister Józef Cyrankiewicz ever placed before a court for his central role in the state murder of Pilecki? As he died in 1989 maybe this was to early for IPN? Was Cyrankiewicz also a Polish Jew?

History / Col.Jozef Swiatlo-Secret agent, torturer, CIA-collaborator to be tried? [145]

Slightly off topic but related:

An interesting aspect of CIA operations in Eastern Europe during the 1950's were the balloon drops of propaganda material over Poland, Hungary, Czechoslovakia for example on just one day in 1951, 11,000 balloons carrying 13 million leaflets were dropped over these countires; drops also included 4 American arimen into Hungary for covert anti-communist operations.

One of these propaganda balloon drops included hundreds of copies of the Polish book Drogi Cichociemnych (or in English The Unseen and Silent) which was the published stories of cichociemni operations in Poland during WII. The cichociemni fought against both Germans and also Soviets in occupied Poland (which is why this book was banned in Poland). Attempts were even made to stop publication of the English edition The Unseen and Silent by pro-Soviet factions within British Foreign Office; which at the time was heavily infiltrated by Soviet agents.

Also during 1955 and 1956 hundreds of Poles, Hungarians, Rumanians and other East Europeans were being trained at Fort Bragg in the USA by the Green Berets and also at a secret CIA base in West Germany for military operations in communist East Europe. A little known fact is that some of the instructors used by CIA and Green Berets were former Polish cichociemni.

History / Col.Jozef Swiatlo-Secret agent, torturer, CIA-collaborator to be tried? [145]

Move a rock and who pops out ;-)))

It should be remembered that the IPN is not an independent organisation but a government sponsored agency that is bound to take into account directions given by its political masters of the day. The IPN's President is appointed by the Sejm. Because of this there has been criticism by opposition parties about bias within parts of IPN.

History / Col.Jozef Swiatlo-Secret agent, torturer, CIA-collaborator to be tried? [145]


Because the intent of Peter_H is not the same as 1jola. The former is referring to religious belief whereas the latter is using the term Jew in derogatory sense to suggest a Polish Jew cannot be a Pole because he is a Jew.



This comment you make is also used frequently by antisemites to try mask an antisemitic stance.

History / Col.Jozef Swiatlo-Secret agent, torturer, CIA-collaborator to be tried? [145]


I would be very appreciative if you could post that reference. Many thanks ;-)

History / Col.Jozef Swiatlo-Secret agent, torturer, CIA-collaborator to be tried? [145]

Weren't most teachers in Poland, Communist Party members?

History / Col.Jozef Swiatlo-Secret agent, torturer, CIA-collaborator to be tried? [145]

newsweek.com
10 percent (or 2,800) of Poland's 28,000 Roman Catholic clergy were suborned by the SB in varying degrees of complicity.

History / Col.Jozef Swiatlo-Secret agent, torturer, CIA-collaborator to be tried? [145]


In fariness I think even you would agree there is a difference of intent by someone who makes the statement:


When in fact Swiatło was a POLISH Jew. In this case the intent is derogatory in the sense the statement is making out that a POLISH Jew is not a Pole. The continued reference 'Jews' rather than POLISH Jews in the context Swiatło and POLISH communists just smacks of anti-semitism rather than adding to any objective or intelligent debate.


This should be BTW, 37% of MBP cadre were POLISH Jews

or a by way of balance to the above BTW 63% of MBP cadre were not POLISH Jews

History / What was Polands greatest historical moment? [24]

September 1989.

History / Col.Jozef Swiatlo-Secret agent, torturer, CIA-collaborator to be tried? [145]


Pathetic weakness of arguement on my part maybe; but to me the implication of this statement of yours just illustrates your petty ingrained anti-semitism, and is used as ploy to deflect attention away from your own hypocricy.


One can also mention 'the Thirteens' the Jewish Ghetto Police and the Polish 'Blueys' as being in that group of people as the 'The Torch' who acted purely out of self-interest, just as you did by emigrating to the 'west' to better your life (your words not mine) and for what you hypocritally berate Polish communists for doing to better their lives—this is the nub of the agruement between you and I, the rest is just your smoke screen to try to say your self-interest is somehow morally superior to Polish Communists...or The Torch or whomever; when it is not.


It is not me making judgements against anyone acting in their self-interest. If joining the Polish communist party to better one's life is an act of self-interest; then a Pole escaping to a better life in the free west and leaving his fellow Poles to get on with it is also acting purely in one's self-interest. If one position is reviled then so should the other; for me there is no moral superiority in the latter's position and that is the only point I am making.

In the case of Jozef Swiatlo, he was a Polish Jew, and he was a Polish communist who is alledged to have been responsible for many state sponsored murders or even murder through his own volition against AK members (but as he has never been tried or will be if he dead so we may never know for certain what he was guilty of) but it could be argued that Operation Splinter Factor and the part Col.Jozef Swiatlo played in this CIA operation, was the catalyst for reform of the communist system which is known as Polish October Revolution and was headed by Gomułka. Swiatlo's entirely false dennunciations (broadcast via Radio Free Europe) of high ranking communists as being CIA or 'western' agents led to thousands of arrests throughout Eastern Europe and execution of 1,000 communists who were entirely innocent of being CIA agents. So from some people's point of view this was only a good thing as no commusnists were innocent and were scum. Therefore maybe Jozef Swiatlo could be also regarded as a hero in some respects (all those arrests and exections of communist scum) even though he was a traitor to Polish communism.

History / Col.Jozef Swiatlo-Secret agent, torturer, CIA-collaborator to be tried? [145]


No they were not Jews—they were POLISH Jews.

POLISH Catholics
POLISH Jews
POLISH Protestants
POLISH Greek Catholic
POLISH Atheists
POLISH whatever?

All are POLISH. Simply that.

I think you are using the term 'Jew' with anti-semitic undertones.... no wonder the whole world thinks Poles are rabidly anti-semitic. But would you even consider yourself a Pole these days as you chose to turn your back on your country for a better life in the 'west' ?

History / Col.Jozef Swiatlo-Secret agent, torturer, CIA-collaborator to be tried? [145]

Slightly off topic but related:
Anybody have information about General Anders intelligence networks (in addition to Pilecki's role in Poland's post war anti-communist network?) during early post-war period... English or Polish books or web sources?

History / Col.Jozef Swiatlo-Secret agent, torturer, CIA-collaborator to be tried? [145]


It is you that has been claiming some moral high-ground by saying it was wrong of Poles to join communist party to better their situation but not for you chose to better your situation by emigating to the west...my point has been that you were doing exactly the same as those you condem that is acting purely out of self-interest to better ones personal situation. It is not me making any excuses or being judgemental for anyone wanting to better their situation. That is the only point I have been making.

BTW.


What did the 92% of Poles that weren't in the communist party do for toilet paper for all those years? Communist newspapers I guess?

History / Col.Jozef Swiatlo-Secret agent, torturer, CIA-collaborator to be tried? [145]


No. One of my friends in Warsaw former cichociemni gen. Stefan 'Starba' Balłuk stayed in Poland despite his being tortured by NKVD and UB. He was given the chance of 'rescue' and escape by Britsish SOE to the west after the war but chose no to....toilet paper or no toilet paper. Same for my good friend Mr. Zbigniew Zielinski, former secretary-of-state for veteran affairs in Polish government he stayed. I could list many more more both in Poland and without.

Honestly, I can perfectly understand the mental turmoil suffered by choosing toilet paper in the west...it is so, so soft ;-)

History / Col.Jozef Swiatlo-Secret agent, torturer, CIA-collaborator to be tried? [145]


Its all about choices and self-interest. Nothing wrong with choosing a better life over helping one's country overthrow communism? But don't berate others for doing what you yourself have done.


It is a fact he was a Polish Jew. Unless you are saying that one couldn't be Polish and a Jew?


I have no sympathy for communism, not one bit, I have been a capitalist through and through all my life and enjoy fully the rewards of that system.

I know from elderly friends that were tortured by NKVD and UB who were former AK and NSZ soldiers what the communist regime was capable of.


Your opinion and you are entitled to it.


Self-interest. I need say no more :-)

History / Col.Jozef Swiatlo-Secret agent, torturer, CIA-collaborator to be tried? [145]

1jola: I repeat it was your assertion that Polish communists were to be somehow reviled for acting in their self-interest when you appear to have done exactly the same thing in your situation, by emigrating to the west. So how can you argue that there was no self-interest in your own personal situation and there was self-interest for Polish communists? Simply that.

Luckily for Poland the vast majority of Poles stayed to fight for their eventual freedom from communism and Poland is thankful for it I think you will agree?

But even the most reviled Poles such as Jozef Swiatlo played some part in this. most likely purely from his own self-interest, but Swiatlo's defection and later co-operation with CIA in Operation Splinter Factor did have some positive influence in softening the Polish communist regime in mid-1950's whatever the rights and wrongs of the man. The Polish section Radio Free Europe based in Munich was also intsrumental in the anti-communist propaganda war and included former cichociemni commentators and leading figures from the 'emigre' Polish government and armed forces personnel.