Poland before WWII or Poland now what would you choose?

How surprising to see you crowing about Poland engaging in ethnic cleansing. Perhaps our mad Serbian friend is right and some Poles are from the same species as the average Serbian. Nevermind, at least the vast majority of Poles are homo sapiens.

So was there a form of communism suitable for Poland?:)


Oh yes i can deny it, i'd agree that some were happy but not "many" if "many" were happy then you wouldnt get movements like Solidarność, the fact is that for the vast majority of Poles the cons of communism such as lack of freedom and democracy far outweighed regular salaries.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expulsion_of_Poles_by_Germany

Salomon, you seem to educated enough, you should know that there were strong voices in Poland that wanted communism but just not as advocated and imposed by Russia. Just read up on Gomułka, he was the guy that spearheaded that movement towards a Polish vision of communism, sth more akin to socialism.

Yes, communism was imposed by force but many politicians were sympathetic to the communistic movement. You must remember that the reign of Cyrankiewicz lasted sth like 24 years. That's far longer than any US president or, I think, British PM. He definitely had communistic leanings and was friendly with the respective parties.

Operation Wisła (Polish: Akcja Wisła) was the codename for the 1947 deportation of southeastern post-war Poland's Ukrainian (including Boyko and Lemko) populations, carried out by the Polish Communist authorities[1][2] About 200,000 people, residing in southeastern Poland were forcibly resettled to the new territories in the north and west of the country.

It has been described as an ethnic cleansing by Polish[4] and Western sources[5] [6] as well as by Ukrainians.The operation commenced at 4 a.m., April 28, 1947

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Vistula
Your "soldiers" even got decorations for beating and killing women and kids. Sick f*cks.

If you ask me if there were Polish communists ... I will answer ... yes Poland had some communists.

If you ask me if they would be able to take power in free Poland. I will answer no!

It is how free Poland fought against Communists in 1920. Poland beaten Soviet Union in 1920.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish-Soviet_War



Soviet propaganda poster. Text reads: "This is how the landowner's ideas end."

A Soviet propadanda poster reading: "A Red present for the White lords" (1920).

Polish propaganda poster showing Polish cavalry and a Bolshevik soldier with a starred cap. Text reads: "Beat the Bolshevik"



Polish FT-17 during Battle of Daugavpils 1919

I'd tend to agree with you, Salomon, but Poland was hardly ever truly free, now was it?

Polish politics isn't entirely predictable and communism may have taken hold without the Russians. Communism was not a super new phenomenon at that time.

Well ... Polish people defended 2nd republic as they could, it was heroic effort ... Polish people were dreaming about the end of imposed on them communism.

You can make speculations if communism would happen without soviets ... the fact is that communism was immposed by Soviets and Polish people were oppresed by this system for Polish ethicy.

I think you'd be wrong here. The earliest mention of Gdańsk in "Żywot świętego
Wojciecha" comes from the late 10th century and describes the bishops visit to
the city. You should all write letters of complaint to Wikipedia and numerous other
websites who tell about the foundation of Gdańsk by Poles and demand that they
stop telling lies :) (providing historical evidence that they are wrong of course :))


How come running away from the bestiality of advancing Red Army can be
considered a "horrible purge by Poles" is really beyond me :)


Just as Lwów and Wilno have Polish speakers.

And what do you mean by many? 0,01% of all inhabitants of Gdańsk? 0,05%?

ha, ha, good one;)

What can be interesting. Western Ukraians 20 years before the WWII ... formed units for Poland in Polish -Soviet war ... so using stupefying Soviet propaganda they prefered "lords"

All that aside we all know the truth about Gdańsk. Germany wanted it to keep Poland from getting ahead. Germany was in a frenzy trying to figure out ways to keep Poland from becoming an economic force in the region so they pounced on Gdańsk. It's glaringly obvious and quite simple to detect the real motivation.

What the fock Sean? Bataliony Chłopskie and communists were a small minority in 1945, how would communism hated by 90% of all Poles and associated with Russia taken hold without the Red Army? Please just stop writing.

Yes but you are missing one very simple point. Poland has always looked outwith for support (Dmowski and Piłsudski both did it). In this case, from Belarus and, to a lesser extent, from Ukraine. Many historians overplayed the Jewish communistic element but it was there.

Poland also likes charismatic leaders. They could have replaced the likes of Bolowski (KPP) with another, sparking a resurgence in communistic sentiment.

There was potential there, Sokrates, and that's what I was trying to say. All it needed was one concerted movement.

Point - everything that belonged to Poland in the year 1772 should belong to Poland and is not greedy or stupid - its your attitude which is really stupid, Ukraine allied with Poland have every chance to became truly strong and independent country, quarrel with Poland and you will end as Russian province, about what a few square miles ? What it is compared to Ukrainian territory?

You could have find stronger voices in Britain doing the same - Kim Phillby and friends !


About Gdansk - archaeological evidence proved that town was built by Poles.
And regardless ethnic Germanic majority in the later history of the town, it belonged to Kingdom of Poland, till partition.


See, you getting excited but what about Poles murdered brutally by your heroes ?
You don't give dam or you are glad?
Seems to me Nathan that you have serious problem to solve !
Condemn Wolyn massacre or not - yes or no!
If you refuse you are hypocrite!


thinks so? moron !


Should record your monologues .))))


Thanks a lot my American friend our soldiers are killed fighting in your wars !
Yet you side with everyone but Poles - great, friend ))))))
Yank!
Any southerners here?

"communism may have taken hold without the Russians"

Ain't no way Jose. Historically, Poles have been too independent for that.

It is not about sides, it is about facts.


UPA killed scum like some AK soldiers who were killing women and kids and tortured prisoners in concentration camps like Germans in WWll


Try to be more respectful, especially to ones who said nothing offending to you.


Everything that belonged to Kijevan Rus' should belong to Ukraine. France should be within 1812 borders. Germany should be with 1940 territories. Austrian should be in 1914 lands and so on... Do you mind? Were will you be? 4th partition - give me a break! ;)


We are independant and we don't need any chances. Go ahead ally with Russians. Nobody gives a fu*k. Anyway, from what I see on this forum, you will always be enemies and along the history line you always were in cohoots with Russians. I don't think anyone expects much from you, save a stab in the back (Riga 1920, Andrusiv Treaty 1667 etc.)

Sean Poles wanted freedom, they craved freedom, it was one of our most principal basic national themes, thats why noble democracy happened, thats why first democratic constitution happened, in Poland any movement that aimed to limit or take away peoples freedom was absolutely impossible regardless of people trying to sell it, the only way you could install it was with an army backing you, which has happened.


Since you're so keen about facts, UPA murdered women and children, after the war when Poland could and did concentrate its military effort on UPA your wannabe SS fighters got squashed within weeks via operation Wisła, i'd appreciate if you didnt ll our women and children "scum" since they were primary UPA victims.


You're weak, militarily, politically and economically, Russia wants to dominate you, Western Europe doesnt give a shite about you, whether you like it or not Poland is the only country that can save you from becoming a Russian province or a backwater poverty stricken craphole on the outskirts of Europe.

Poland is possibly the only political option that can save and preserve Ukrainian sovereignty.

Russia wants, Poland wants - all you want, but you will never get. If the Polish forum is representative of Polish people's opinion - which I think is to a great degree the truth - then I feel more secure, because I know the face of the enemy. Conniving one, as was the case in the history many times. You are a malignant tumor, one that can't be cured and that spreads its BS into the future generations. You tried for centuries and what did you end up with? Whining a*s-holes like yourself claiming about all-suffering Poland. Nobody needs your support - shove it up into your arse.

You have absolutely no tools to oppose Russia, many of Western politicians like Romano Prodi dont even consider you a part of European community, without Polish promotion the question of Ukraine in EU would never even arise, national pride or not alone you're absolutely defensless and without Poland you are alone.


Thats the good part, while i'm baiting you here on the forums Poland doesnt want to take anything from Ukraine, sooner or later you will be forced to come clean with UPA issue but thats a minor thing, Poland and Ukraine do not have conflicting interests yet we both have very similar ones, the problem here is that you're an inherently unstable country and at the moment not suitable for closer relations.


Buddy, if history is any indicator and we were really an enemy then your country might have become somewhat territorialy leaner, Ukraine as such has virtually no serious relationships, Poland has twice your GDP, three times your military spending, about ten times as much international leverage and we want strong Ukraine because its in our best interest, if you people were smart you'd learn to love us as the third best thing after sex and vodka since we are THE key to your national well being.


Actually you do, if only because no one else will support you and alone you're too weak to oppose Russia and even you Nathan should know by now that any "alliance" with Russia at best going to wreck your country, at worst make you lose half of it.

you are naive)))))


also you have been a brainwashed, I guess you can helped being so wrong!
never the less you didn't condemned Wolyn massacre - it make you hypocrite and others can see what you really are.........!


YOU lecture me? Maybe try to justify ethnic cleansing, yet again and then lecture me some more?


Do you believe that you actually make same point in here ?
If so, you are not very bright))))))

Well, Ukraine is divida in partes tres, so far we are talking with one part.
See maybe others Ukrainian have something different to say?

I knew it! I felt that something is fishy here. Thanks, Prodi, now I know for sure that Ukrainians are living in Wonderland! Sh*t, these teachers of mine were lying all the time, bastards.


We want it so bad...closer relations. Ahh!..


No, Ukraine is in love, deep unconditional love with you..;) You are so romantic, Socrates.


You need this love badly, I know it, Sokrates, you dirty little monkey. Sorry, I am straight. :(


Don't ya worry. We have some important partnerships and step by step Ukraine will be there. Again shove your "friendship" into your arse. ;)

He's not alone, the West would love to forget you exist, that Poland you hate so much prevents that.


Thats your issue, Poland will keep rolling without Ukraine, Ukraine will not continue to be sovereign without Poland, we have a lot less to lose than you if our future relations fail.


What important partnerships? European Union doesnt even want you in, Belarus is too deep with Russia and Russia itself wants you as its pawn, so apart from Poland who's going to reach out to you?


Your petty sarcasm aside improved relations with Ukraine would be great, while we are a key to your sovereign existence you are our key to international power but like i said you're a nation thats seriously underdeveloped in more ways then one and sadly you're not growing up anytime soon.

Wow! Thank you, O Great Poland. Art blesseth Thee! ;)


Trust me, Ironside, I am the only "part" that still has some interest to debate with you. Others wouldn't even bother to waste their keyboards on this BS.

oh blessed me ! Such great person as Nathan the Great BS Digger is interested.
Thank You!
By the way is there any other massacre you would like to justify as in Wolyn?

Sarcasm aside tell me what country besides Poland has benevolent interests associated with Ukraine?

Russia probably thinks it does, rather like a strict father who means to be cruel to be kind.

What is benevolence? It is good will, correct? So how there can be benevolent interests?
If there is such a thing, then benevolence doesn't exist. It should then be called kind business, if such a thing is possible.


And Poland likewise. You imagine yourself saviors of the world. Kind of the kindest. After you are satisfied with your false image (is it possible?), keep on licking it and let me laugh.

I asked you a question Nathan, your country is absolutely alone in Europe, no one will support you in case of Russian agression, no one except Poland is interested in the very existence of your state, who do you think will come help you against Russia or agressive EU economy?


Call it how you want, the fact is its in our Polish interest to see you survive and grow strong however we can manage without Ukraine, Ukraine cannot continue to exist as it is currently without substantial Polish support in the future.


Who the hell says we're saviors of the world, in any alliance Poland would lead through more dynamic culture and more powerfull economy but still an alliance with Ukraine is good business for us and an absolute neccesity for you, if you want to avoid utter marginalization and domination by Russia.


Our countries have no conflictint interests so yes, the problem is severe underdevelopment of Ukraine and your national sentiments.

You're a weak and poor country without any major supporter and with a neighbour who wants to dominate you, looking for friends should be your major priority.


No Nathan, an alliance with Russia would most likely end with you losing large parts of your country and having your economy drained leaving your country a 3rd world ruin, an alliance with Poland means economic ties, international recognition and significant leverage in defence of your interests on the international arena, a potential alliance with Poland can grant you things you could never have on your own and in exchange we get cheap labor force that can be easily polonised, a close military and economical partner.

"I feel more secure, because I know the face of the enemy"
Nathan

And I feel it was rather paranoid reaction.
Nathan, you have been asked several times some simple questions but unfortunately enough your only answer were sarcasm and some wounded national pride.

Stop this hair-splitting.
Stop discussing Danzig or Gdansk.

Say Nathan what is wrong about Poland considering good relationship with Ukraine to be a strategic objective of our politics ?
BTW it's not about Ukraine only - so called Giedroyc's doctrine refers to Belorussia and Lithuania as well.
We don't mean any form of confederation or "commonwealth".
It's over.

It's a healthy political business.
Win win option.
I do not overestimate Polish position in NATO or in the Union.
But for the time being we 've got better political and economical cards than you, Ukrainians.
Giving you some political support we do not expect anything in exchange.
Or maybe our wish of politically stable and democratic Ukraine is too much for you ?