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Poland-Russia: never-ending story?


Lukasz  49 | 1746  
19 Sep 2007 /  #301
It is not Polish idea to close bothers on east ...

But for expample in case of Kaliningrad, you can do good deal. We change government (in my opinion kaczynski woluld take this deal too), we open the borthers for Kaliningrad citizens (thats all we can do), you show it in TV, our relationships become better, and you can stop embargo without thread your society will consider your goverment move as capitulation ...
johan123  1 | 227  
19 Sep 2007 /  #302
Why should I pay attention to the opinion of states that give me permition to visit them if there are lots of states I can travel without visa and that don't express their opinion on Russian policy?

Because Russia is a former KGB criminal state that continues to murder those in opposition. Russia has no place on the international stage until real political freedom exists.
truhlei  10 | 332  
19 Sep 2007 /  #303
Please pay attention to my question.
I didn't ask what is on in Russia. I only asked why should I the Russian take into account EU opinions if I get nothing from these countries, even travel without visa.
Grzegorz_  51 | 6138  
19 Sep 2007 /  #304
Some countries have higher leaders than Jaro Koczynski. These leaders know how to provoke Jaro to veto non significant Russia - EU treaties by banning Polish meat import.

Don't try to offend Jaro. Anything but not my beloved Jaro.
truhlei  10 | 332  
19 Sep 2007 /  #305
you show it in TV, our relationships become better, and you can stop embargo without thread your society will consider your goverment move as capitulation ...

Lukasz, Russian government isn't afraid such capitulatior image in case of Polish meat.
Some 95 per cent of Russians don't even keep in their memory the meat embargo. If it is declared that embargo is over, 95 per cent will forget it next day.

Nobody knows real reasons of that embargo but it is not the question of mass interest. People think they can gain nothing from EU countries except gas-money exchange routine. That's why people aren't anxious about problems in relations with any EU state.

Only if a nice proposals appear in the West but in exchange of improved relations and more western penetration, Russian society will start thinking.
As to free travel for Kaliningrad residents and people from 50 km zone, that's good for a very reduced number. The rest will stay indifferent.

Don't try to offend Jaro. Anything but not my beloved Jaro.

He is better than the majority of European politicians. But so unexperienced.
Lukasz  49 | 1746  
19 Sep 2007 /  #306
I think that deals like everything or nothing, or relationships like Love or Hate. Are so typical for our region

... ehhh but I see Russians have chosen (or rather Putin) option: "if they dont want us we dont need them..."

Your country reputation is very weak, Europe decided to stop your expansion in EU (Gazprom investemnts). You start to make threads for some EU countires (for example Poland) and it is wrong way ... We all know the western countries are not going to invade Russia, you have to sell gas/petrol for Europe. We have noticed you are quite worried about China, you try to show you with them as an ally. But we all know about you are more woried about China than europe or USA ...

You need west, you feel part of European civilization, so maybe it would be much easier to play using western rules.

But there is the other option, you just want to get some influence on countries which belonged to your emipre in the past. Your regime fits you by stories like this

We know your point of view ... but this nice story just shows what Putin wants you to belive, to prove you need his regime. What is more he provokes other countries, and when they react he is showing him self as good boy form this story. And you think you need him. But all Europeans just knows the reality looks different. All you need is democracy, and Russia is going in other direction. I think the confrontation with some countries in EU is just the part of Putins show for your society. So thats why for example he is not going to solve problem of Kaliningrad, because unsolved issue of visas for Kaliningrad citizens makes his regime more popular.
truhlei  10 | 332  
20 Sep 2007 /  #307
I think that deals like everything or nothing, or relationships like Love or Hate. Are so typical for our region

As to visas, nobody requires an inmediate solution. The point is that EU doesn't even proposes a clear visa ban programme for at least 10 (!) years, that may include strict mutual obligations.

... ehhh but I see Russians have chosen (or rather Putin) option: "if they dont want us we dont need them..."

Quite a logical conclusion for a state that can survive without obedience to western rules. I don't think Russia is the only EU neighbour that started travelling away from the West. Turkish state is going to act in the same way after East European countries were admitted to EU and Tirkish people weren't despite 40 years of attempts to integrate.

Your country reputation is very weak, Europe decided to stop your expansion in EU (Gazprom investemnts).

Russia has field ror retaliation measures within its own territory. Many Endowments already felt that retaliation.

We all know the western countries are not going to invade Russia, you have to sell gas/petrol for Europe. We have noticed you are quite worried about China, you try to show you with them as an ally. But we all know about you are more woried about China than europe or USA ...

Not so for today. That is quite an obsolete stereotype.
Russia has good relations with China and we are interested in business with that state.
It is uneasy to imagine the motives for possible China invasion.
But even if it is possible, EU won't help Russia. So Russia doesn't have more interests in EU than in China.

You need west, you feel part of European civilization, so maybe it would be much easier to play using western rules.

That is the greates mistake.
Nobody needs EU as symbol only. European history, culture of previous centuries are in books we all can read. To live according to 10 testaments is the best way to feel yourself a part of European civilization.

As to western rules today they correspond to traditional western civilization less than today Russia.
There are Russians that don't think much about 10 testaments.
But they also think that to play despite western rules is the best and shortest way to feel part of civilization. I.E. to gain money, money and once more money. Civilization is for those who can buy it. Every day such people see confirmation of this idea.

Russians could see what type of people was promoted within the state during all 90 under western protection. No ilusions about plyying western rules and feeling part of civilization.
Crow  154 | 9341  
20 Sep 2007 /  #308
Oh dear, why I brought this digression here, I wonder, I wonder :)

I know what you want to say

I must say that I`m against any form of economic sanctions/bariers between Slavic countries and that includes pressure because of enegy which Russia uses as political tool. To be precise, this kind of pressure is ok if used against false west which is hostile on Russia and other Slavs but, it is abomination if it is used against Slavic countries.

Relations between Russia and Serbia obviously go in dirrection of formation of some kind alliance and I believe that it would tend to become Slavic confederation. If, with help of Christ we accomplish unity, that unity must be friendly for all other Slavs, no matter on their religion background. That`s the only way which is acceptable for Serbs and I believe for majority of ordinary Russians.

No pressure on other Slavs! Circle of hate must be stoped! Any opened question between Slavs (not only between them!) must be solved in talks and on international conferences.

What's your problem ? Some countries simply have higher standards.



That`s still usual picture on markets in Slavic countries (Eastern Europe). It must be changed. Me must prosper and tend to use higher standards in all sphera of economic activities and in every day life.

Some countries have higher leaders than Jaro Koczynski. These leaders know how to provoke Jaro to veto non significant Russia - EU treaties by banning Polish meat import.

I don`t like when Slavic children suffer because of some politicians (on all sides in misunderstanding). Russia and Poland need to be carefull hire, as I already underlined.

Don't try to offend Jaro. Anything but not my beloved Jaro.

Seams that Koczynski support creation of Greater Albania (by his actions and attitude). Please, Polish brothers and sisters don`t vote for this politician. On the long run he work against Polish intersets, too (think! Greater Albania is German/Turkish project, same as Greater Croatia).
truhlei  10 | 332  
20 Sep 2007 /  #309
But there is the other option, you just want to get some influence on countries which belonged to your emipre in the past.

Yes there are old fashioned people in Russia and by low demographic lewel the percentage of old and conservative people is too high. They are thinking about their youth when they were stronger. They have sometimes a romantic view on Soviet superpower not because they are imperialists but by the reason they were younger some 30 years ago. That is quite common with all old people.

Authorities have to take that into account because they are voters. But in general Russian authorities try to get rid of expensive friends abroad. Today Belarus is one of such examples.

The best way to destroy superpower ilusions is to show that "friends" are parasits. That each Russian can gain more if Russia doesn't have dependent states. That enemies are more inexpensive than friends.

But USA and EU don't help Russian authorities in such propaganda. They state that Ukraine should be dotated by Russia and pay for gas 2-3 times less than Poland. Nobody took care of Poland in early 90 when world gas prices were established although the internal Polish situation seemed to be a real disaster. Ukranians today have an average salary of some USD 250-300 and world prices may signify only some USD 15 of reduction only. You see very few Ukranians want to pay 15 dollars for independence and they are supported by the West.

Do you think it is easy to persuade any Russian that the loss of "friends" is profitable if the West requires for them both freedom and dotations?

Your regime fits you by stories like this

That is not the regime. That is the most liberal and proeuropean Russian singer in 90 Oleg Gasmanow. He is the example of dissapointment it the West.

What is more he provokes other countries, and when they react he is showing him self as good boy form this story. And you think you need him.

1. Nobody provokes Ahtisaari to impose Kosovo independense despite the agreement with Serbija. That may create a bad precedent and Russia is afraid. That may awake some extremists who want to declare Abhasia and Osetia independence from Georgia and Russia will have to pay for their liberty. That was the western idea about Kosovo.

2. What are the USA and some European states doing in Iraq? Did Russia provoke Iraq occupation?

All you need is democracy, and Russia is going in other direction.

All we need for today are moral and money.
Nobody is interested in democracy in misery and accompanied by gay manifestations.
Money was the main idea of Russian politicians and businessmen supported by the West in 90 when Russia was weak. Their activities were highly estimated by western politicians despite they thought about profits only, not about liberty.

Why are you astonished when the rest of Russians also want to have a share of profits and don't think about democracy?
Why are you astonished that Russians become anti-west when they notice that profits are possible without west orientation?
Are you sure democracy will mean anything even in the West if living standards go down?

So thats why for example he is not going to solve problem of Kaliningrad, because unsolved issue of visas for Kaliningrad citizens makes his regime more popular.

There were many attempts to solve Kaliningrad challenge. But EU never proposed a regime similar to West Berlin visitation by West Europeans.

All you need is democracy, and Russia is going in other direction.

The new law adopted following Putin's initiative permits only parties' lists at parlamentary elections. That creates a basis for strong pluralism.
Russian authorities don't create obstacles for internet access. That defends the right to receive information more than any other legal provisions.
There are prospects for more freedom but it is quite uneasy to create a free society in a state separated from the West. Russia has to make all the way toward free society using its own force only. The west has a reputation of non-profitable adviser.

As to relations between Poland and Russia, I don't see any prospects for today.
Poland taken separately from EU isn't mentioned by Russian mass media. The man in the street think a pure Europe begins away from Poland. Poland is only Kresy of EU. A poor relative of western Europeans.

Germany is the symbol of western civilization for today Russians.

As to East EU members in general...
Well, Russia is more interested in their hostility.
Russians (note: of different political views) are going to persuade the West that its special attention to these states accompanied by isolation of Russia in 90 lead to Russian inverability. And that possible problema with Turkish state is also of the same nature.

Sooner or later the West will look for the reasons of its disasters in relations with the rest of the world. Such idea will be up to day. Russians are away and Poles are near. That is a common rule that punishment is not for guilty but for those nearby.

Such activities are more profitable than improvement of relations. For today at least. In situation when obsolete approaches governs.
Poland may reject such prospects only by inventing new clever initiatives.
Please comment on my low-cost post. That seems to be relevant

Lukasz, please answer: Which new profits besides money for gas Russia can receive from the West.
Why should the man in the street be interested in good relations with the West.
No demonstration of that view appeared in Russia in 90. But there were many mistakes commited by EU as well as Russia.
Well...
Let us try again. But what about benefits? What about proposals. What about interests of ordinary Russians. Do you imagine such interest? I don't.

Read this article published in Guardian
guardian.co.uk/Columnists/Column/0,,2171414,00.html
Lukasz  49 | 1746  
20 Sep 2007 /  #310
The man in the street think a pure Europe begins away from Poland. Poland is only Kresy of EU. A poor relative of western Europeans.

I would discuss ...

Germany is the symbol of western civilization for today Russians.

Ehhh Russians and Germans nothing new ... but even Germans last time pretends to not beeing seen as your man in EU ...

Russians (note: of different political views) are going to persuade the West that its special attention to these states accompanied by isolation of Russia in 90 lead to Russian inverability.

Russia in EU is just not posible !!! Poland made grate work in '90 to meet criteria of EU, if you want to be partner (all you can achiev) you should play using western rules. What do you think, you will kill Litwinenko, make embargo on Poland, other economical sanctions for some EU contries, and ther will be no reaction ... I m sure Russia has chosen way on which all in all will lost ... Maybe it is quite hard to notice on this forum (Brat Wurst isnt representative for germany), but there are more and more signs that EU will hold (more or less) but one line in relationships with you. EU now stoped some of your investements just because you have chosen your own way ... Russia GDP is about Holand and Belgium GDP so Russia isnt so strong as pretends to be. Dont be surprised when Polish general will become head of NATO commiete with German support ...

In my opinion your isolation (you will see it in nearest future) is your own choice. And you will lost on this move more than you think ...
truhlei  10 | 332  
20 Sep 2007 /  #311
Ehhh Russians and Germans nothing new ... but even Germans last time pretends to not beeing seen as your man in EU ...

Few Russians think Germany is its representative in EU. The point is that sympathies exist despite current relations. Russians are good to ordinary Americans and internal US civilization despite the conflicts between states.

What do you think, you will make embargo on Poland, other economical sanctions for some EU contries, and ther will be no reaction ...

No, I don't think so. I think West reaction doesn't frightens Russia. Nobody looses here anything while EU reacts

I m sure Russia has chosen way on which all in all will lost ...

Details please. What can Russia loose? Reputation in EU? Is it profitable to have reputation in Europe?

Maybe it is quite hard to notice on this forum (Brat Wurst isnt representative for germany), but there are more and more signs that EU will hold (more or less) but one line in relationships with you.

How can I suffer from this line? What can I, the man in the street, ordinary Russian loose? Explain it to me, to other Russians and we will change our mind

EU now stoped some of your investements just because you have chosen your own way ...

I didn't invest anything. As to Russia in general, it can survive without these investments. Some adecuate and limited measures against EU and gas-money exchange goes on.

More investments in Russian economy.

Russia GDP is about Holand and Belgium GDP so Russia isnt so strong as pretends to be.

I don't pretend to be strong. That is the imperialist past.
I pretend to be invulnerable. I pretend to gain profits. The West doesn't propose any good profits or benefits.
You are of different opinion. Well explain it to me.

In my opinion your isolation (you will see it in nearest future) is your own choice.

Russians felt isolation in 90. Any western measures today won't permit Russians to feel it in the same degree today.
As to choice, Russia voted in favour of pro-west orientation in 90.
It may vote again but only if you show benefits.

Dont be surprised when Polish general will become head of NATO commiete with German support ...

Do you really think such prospect can frighten Russians?

Ehhh Russians and Germans nothing new ...

Many new things. No imperialism. No agression.
Only business.

Russia in EU is just not posible !!!

It isn't possible forever!!!
EU isn't the organization of high industrial states as it was before. Many poor relatives appeared. Russia won't receive anything by participating in such organization.

Only special relations are possible. Russia will keep loyal to EU and open more spheres for western polititians ans businessmen. If EU invents profitable proposals.

Nobody is going to respect EU by the only reason of its existence.
Russia had good and pragmatic teachers in the West.
Lukasz  49 | 1746  
20 Sep 2007 /  #312
There are several profits of being EU partner, it is enougt Russia starts playing using western standarts.

You need exampels,

trade barers, you could get some concessions for your products ... quite important thing.

Traveling/students exchange. Just right now our citizens takes oportunity to travel throught the Europe, a lot of young people are going for student exchanges to EU countries. They see solutions in other countries and try to adopt it in our country.

They get some interesting international contacts, what is very important.
There would be more tourists in your country, more investments, more developmnet.

Hi-tech investments, you need reputation in this case.

You have gas and petrol, and you use it in such a old-fashion style (thereads, blackmails) your spy killing UK citizens ... it is wrong way.

When your reputation increase you can get a lot of concessions ... which would satisfy your citizens, stronger your economy. You could get some know-how ...

It is just better to be open, and in my opinion West is the best choice for Russia, but to get status of special partnership it is important to met some criteria. Those criteria are good thing for Russia citizens as well : human rights, more domocracy, free market ...

There is a question if Putin wants it, In my opinion he has other vison of your country ...

Only special relations are possible. Russia will keep loyal to EU and open more spheres for western polititians ans businessmen. If EU invents profitable proposals. Nobody is going to respect EU by the only reason of its existence.Russia had good and pragmatic teachers in the West.

As I have mentioned it previosly, you have to be partner of whole EU, not just some countries ...

Do you really think such prospect can frighten Russians?

it was just to prove, that even we quarel in some cases in other we are able to cooperate ...
Grzegorz_  51 | 6138  
20 Sep 2007 /  #313
Seams that Koczynski support creation of Greater Albania (by his actions and attitude). Please, Polish brothers and sisters don`t vote for this politician.

That's what Yanks tell them to do and other politicians wouldn't change that.
truhlei  10 | 332  
20 Sep 2007 /  #314
trade barers, you could get some concessions for your products ... quite important thing.

Which concessions?
1. Russia doesn't find it easy to be in competition with China in export. If Russia is able to do that later it won't require concessions. If not, protectionism won't save Russia by being quite limited.

2. Russia is more interested in export to developping states. Such states don't impose their rules as EU. They welcome disidents.

Well, have you heard about any figures concerning concessions potential profit? I haven't. Doesn't it seem strange that the West doesn't mentiones about that?

Traveling/students exchange. Just right now our citizens takes oportunity to travel throught the Europe, a lot of young people are going for student exchanges to EU countries.

This also exists despite collisions. EU needs Russian readmission activities. So it has to open its territory to these classes of Russians. If EU putd obstacles Russia will stop fighting against ilegal imigrants transite.

So the EU has already sold its permition to travel in exchange of readmition.
Russians are sometimes idiots but it is uneasy to sell them twice the same thing
Lukasz  49 | 1746  
20 Sep 2007 /  #315
Truhley

I m not going to beg you to become EU partner ... honestly it is in your business. Look how do (more or less) isolated countries develope ... and how do it countries with free market. We have some expierience, we have given our 38 mln market to explor by western comapnies, they opened their market for us. Import and Export increased about 23% (in 2006) so it was good deal for both sides.

Honestly your Economy in isolation or with the partners like Mongolia or Turkmenistan ... will lost in long term. You have your gas and petrol but every year there are more and more technologies which will make it just another coal. For example there are cars on hydrogen

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrogen_vehicle

Now it is more expensive than your gas but in close future ...

So your advantage coming from natural resources is important now, you can get some concessions now ... because latter they will talk to you like in '90s. It is quite risky game to bulit your economy only on natural resources ...

So it is in your business to have good relationship with whole EU, when you have some arguments. Later again nobody will belive you ... (like in '90). For Poland it is quite important to have normal situation on our eastern borther, and thats all, it is our business. Do you think making threads to some EU members, killing others citizens, embargo to others is a good way for Russia.
truhlei  10 | 332  
20 Sep 2007 /  #316
Honestly your Economy in isolation or with the partenrs like Mongolia or Turkmenistan ... will lost in long term.

Russia has many contacts with different Nations. No embargo in relations with Japan, North Korea, China and many, many other states. Know-how penetrates from all these countries and Russia has today 7 per cent of annual growth.

As to EU states there are lots of contacts and quite a good investments into Russian Economy. The West isn't interested in Russian isolation but if that occures, there is still Asia.

Do you think making threads to some EU members, killing others citizens, embargo to others is a good way for Russia.

That is a world practice. Iraq is one of such examples and Russian policy is quite moderated and limited. The majority of humanity is of the same opinion.

So it is in your business to have good relationship with whole EU, when you have some arguments. Later again nobody will belive you ... (like in '90).

Nobody believes anybody in business or politics. Only today interest rules.
If Russia becomes weak nobody will take into consideration its past loyalty.
If Russia represents interest the West will forgive much (not all, but look: Russia isn't so cruel now).
The West has contacts with Pakistan. What about its loyalty to western values?

You have your gas and petrol but every year there are more and more technologies which will make it just another coal. For example there are cars on hydrogen

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrogen_vehicle

Now it is more expensive than your gas but in close future ...

In close future only efficient Electric Vehicles are possible. Electricity also requires gas because there are few Nuclear Power Stations in Europe (except France).
Much may change to 2025 but humanity will have less expensive goods in general by that period. Russians will need less money to live in good conditions as well as the rest of the world.

Look:
Gas engine with gearbox and injector are all of some USD 2000. For resource of some 150 000 km.
Electric motor for 1.5 million km (!) is of some USD 150-200.
IF EV appear Russians will loose smth on gas but cars for them will become less expensive.

I m not going to beg you to become EU partner ... honestly it is in your business. Look how do (more or less) isolated countries develope ... and how do it countries with free market. We have some expierience, we have given our 38 mln market to explor by western comapnies, they opened their market for us. Import and Export increased about 23% (in 2006) so it was good deal for both sides.

The same thing occures in China. Nobody pays attention to its behaviour. The same thing with many other states. I don't think the West is able to impose different rules to Russia.

If you think any new possibilities can appear. More possibilities than Russia has today, please talk about them with figures. If it is more profitable than today Russian behaviour, I'm sure Russians will change their mind.

Now you only mention smth. mentioned 20 years ago.
It is a good way to have a detailed discussion.

There would be more tourists in your country

Lots of tourists in Egypt despite low democratic lewel.
Few tourists to Russia in any case. Russia doesn't represent by its cold seas a great interest to mass visitors.
No reason to change relations with the west.

When your reputation increase you can get a lot of concessions ... which would satisfy your citizens, stronger your economy. You could get some know-how ...

Facts and figures are required. You are 20 years late. Such dreams are only for Homo Soveticus. Who will trust again and again?

It is just better to be open, and in my opinion West is the best choice for Russia, but to get status of special partnership it is important to met some criteria.

It is clear. Only one question: What can I get fron special partnership (some first 1000 benefits for society) and what are these criteria (some 1000 points). Russian siciety didn't receive these two lists. Have you ever seen them?

Those criteria are good thing for Russia citizens as well : human rights, more domocracy, free market ...

More democracy? What are the new democratic provisions I need the West can impose here?
Human rights? What kind of my human rights EU is able to defend. I'm not Chechen rebel. I'm not criminal. I'm middle classer. The West will impose tax reduction? No, because western people pay much to support lumpens. The EU will defend my right to receive information? I have this right using Internet. My authorities promote Internet to province, to all schools etc.

EU will help me to stop the expansion of secret service. military or law enforcement bodies officers and their relatives and clients? In what way if it is still in action even in EU states such as Poland (see Jaro Kaczynski speech on anticommunism in Sorbona).

Smth like Pospolitoje Ruszenje or US militias of states is required for that in today Russia. I have never heard such advices from the West.

There is a question if Putin wants it, In my opinion he has other vison of your country ...

He subordinated his activities to common Russian opinion. The opinion that the West isolates Russia and it is more profitable to limit political subordination to the west is registered by Lewada Center since 1994-95.
Lukasz  49 | 1746  
20 Sep 2007 /  #317
Figures, no body gave us any figures. It is just natural choice to do business with developed countries. But I m sure that we have chosen good way. Some things we could do better, but all in all our situation isnt bad.

You should put on the table what you can give and what do you want to take ...

I feel that our discussion doesn't stick to reality. because the reality looks like that:

bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/markmardell
truhlei  10 | 332  
20 Sep 2007 /  #318
Figures, no body gave us any figures. It is just natural choice to do business with developed countries. But I m sure that we have chosen good way. Some things we could do better, but all in all our situation isnt bad.

It is not bad in Russia now. Average salary of USD 500. 7% annual growth.
As to Poland and Baltic states, the EU potential was hardly enough to admit these former socialist states. Russia was isolated. Despite the gentleman agreement tha Nato won't expand, the expansion took place. NATO thought Russia was unable to protest by being weak. Now Russia can do much because USA have problems in Iraq-Iran and also can't protest. We had good teachers of cinical approach and pragmatism.

Now we meet the results of such isolation. That could be a better way for the West to spend all force in Russia. States between the West and Russia in this case wouldn't have any other way than to the West even without any help. That wasn't done. That is not my fault as well as the fault of those near me/ Western leaders had more possibiliries to influence within Russia in 90 than we, the ordinary Russians. We don't want to listen to these idiots again.

You should put on the table what you can give and what do you want to take ...

From the West Russians want to take only the right to travel without visas. As to economic relations, they seem to be more profitable with Asia.

What to give in exchange - that depends upon the West. As to butaforic bombers, they can be back without any problem/ As to the rest of demands, I don't know them.

I feel that our discussion doesnt stick to reality. because the reallity looks like that:

bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/markmardell

Oyr discussion sticks precisely to this reality. What Russia must do and what can it get in exchange. Something for common understanding.
Lukasz  49 | 1746  
20 Sep 2007 /  #319
'90s were after '80. It is quite important think you should notice. You were to weak to protest we join NATO. God bless your weaknes in '90s.

We can discuss about everything, but we all know what kind of game Putin is playng right now ...
truhlei  10 | 332  
20 Sep 2007 /  #320
As to Gasprom, that is another western idiotism. Monopoly is always dangerous. Competitive gas pipelines from Central Asia should exist. Nobody should trust even a loal Gasprom if it is Monopoly. The comparison with Microsoft is quite evident.

But is that Russian duty to construct alternative pipelines? Why there are no real steps? Only discussions. Since 90.

'90s were after '80. It is quite important think you should notice. You were to weak to protest we join NATO.

We are discussing gentleman agreement of 1989 violation. Without pardons and compensations. The violation that may justify retaliation.

We can discuss about everything, but we all know what kind of game Putin is playng right now ...

Are you really sure?
Lukasz  49 | 1746  
20 Sep 2007 /  #321
so what do you want from EU ? only money for your gas ? I m not Russian I dont know what do you want.
james123  
20 Sep 2007 /  #322
Are you really sure?

He is slowly but surely preparing for his new role at Gazprom. Gazprom will enable Putin to become the CEO of the world's biggest company
Lukasz  49 | 1746  
20 Sep 2007 /  #323
Are you really sure?

Yes I m sure ... (there is something for you crow as well)

The European Commission has expressed concern about Russian plans to acquire gas pipelines and other strategic assets, but the Russians have already been buying up energy and other firms, particularly in countries which used to be part of the Soviet Union.

news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programmes/from_our_own_correspondent/7002511.stm
truhlei  10 | 332  
20 Sep 2007 /  #324
so what do you want from EU ? only money for your gas ? I m not Russian I dont know what do you want.

The man in the street only travels without visa. There is no communism now in Russia and everybody can buy Opel if he has money.

As to Gasprom, that's quite a sophisticated question for me. There are some mutual petitions between EU and Gasprom (concerning mutual peneyration) but only experts may represent this question.

Personally I think that EU should create a Low-cost Bureau in order to study the possibility of low-cost sandwich-panel cottages and cars manufacturing all over the world as well as cheap laptops. Following the work with experts the world will learn how much bikkions dollars are required to create the low-cost types (it is quite expensive to forsee low-cost production all over the world). Different states (Russia between them) will participate in donation.

That may return reputation to the West because nobody else is able to carry out such work. Besides that the possibility to buy low-cost will soften world tension give the youth from poor states other prospects besides extremism.

Sandwich-panel cottages will permit wide migration of different ethnic groups from regions they are threatened.
It is some 100 (!) times less than USA want to spend on military some next years but of major result.
As to Russians the majority of them will give up thinking about money and pay more attention to humanitarian values.
Many Poles won't work the rest of their life to pay for a cottage and a year to pay a car.

Yes I m sure ... (there is something for you crow as well)

Russia depends upon EU money for gas. Russia is unable to blackmail EU more than EU Russia. That is for today.
Tomorrow EU should have another pipeline.
Slick77  
20 Sep 2007 /  #325
I'm a Pole but I have nothing against Russia or Russians. To be honest I don't understand why Putin is viewed by some as a bad guy. He was ellected by Russians and is extremally popular there. He proved to be a skilled politician and diplomat. I don't want to go into a discussion if Russia is a democratic country or not. Russian people know the best what kind of political system they want.

I wish all the best to Russia and Russian people.

As usually our politicians have underestimated Russia. We are making the same mistake as we made before WWII. We count on the west to come to our aid and resolve all our problems for us.

The same western politicians who have been saying that democracy in Russia is violated have come to Russia and shake hands with Putin many times over Polish heads. They are laughing behind our backs that we haven't done the same yet. Instead we want to go back to the issues that have been closed long time ago or fight with Russians over some meat or something.

Come on people, come to your senses. Russia is not our enemy.
Lukasz  49 | 1746  
20 Sep 2007 /  #326
:))) what an atmosphere, what a people, pace nad love...

But to be serious, Russians had made similar project in the past, but it wasnt succesful. Do you remember 1917 :))) and its finish in 1989 ...

truhlei what is more they killed all idealists just at the begining, so be careful :)

Oh my god I was trying to be serious but it was just imposible.
Slick77  
20 Sep 2007 /  #327
You should get a mirror and take a good look at yourself in particular at your manners.

You may find that you act and sound like those men on the picture you have just presented us in your post.

Second, Russian people were as much victims to the communist oppression as Poles or others.
truhlei  10 | 332  
20 Sep 2007 /  #328
truhlei what is more they killed all idealists just at the begining, so be careful :)

I was western romantic in 1989. I was among those who lost during westenized regime. The same rule.
I wasn't killed because Russia is much softer than it was as well as Germany after WWI but the rule is the same. Now I'm more experienced as the majority of Russians that like me voted in favour of the West in early 90.

Now details and figures please. And no trust

You should get a mirror and take a good look at yourself in particular at your manners.

You may find that you act and sound like those men on the picture you have just presented us in your post.

Slick77,
I'm sure Lukasz is of different nature. He discusses the ways of Russian-Polish relations' improvement. Unfortunately Polish mass media don't describe well Russian situation. Their brutal manners can be compared only with Russian mass media describing today Poland
Lukasz  49 | 1746  
20 Sep 2007 /  #329
I see our discussion have became more relaxed so I will tell the world why our neighbours were always invading Poland

And Bob Marley singing : "No woman no cry ... " doesnt sound good after 3 shots of vodka ... so we had to fight ;)


  • Poland Team
truhlei  10 | 332  
20 Sep 2007 /  #330
Lukasz low-cost isn't common with socialism. Poles must know that.

Low-cost is common with USA with Ford T.
Low-cost is common with France with Citroen 2CV.
Low-cost is common with UK with Mini by Issigonis.

American Levittown with cottages for USD 7000 in 1949 cshould be also mentioned.

These are all capitalist and democratic states. They became more democratic using low-cost when people were short of money.

The point is that in 90 as well as now only political democracy was exported to extotalitarian states. No even ideas about low-cost that created western society in 20 century.

Nicolas Negroponte is promoting a USD 100 laptop. No wide reaction. Renault Nissan has started creating a car for USD 3000. No reaction among eurobureaucrats. No ideas to promote or stimulate other manufacturers. No at least monitoring.

The most crazy thing is that polititians in the EU as well as in the USA didn't even mention these steps as asset of democratic world. Despite the fact that it is more interesting than discussions concerning gay coup;es official registration as married.

You want to laugh at the desire of poor nations to travel by car or live in low-cost cottages.
Don't forget you are laughing at old Polish woman who takes her grandson from school using old and damaged feet. Her pension isn't sufficient to buy Dacia Logan.

You are laughing at Polish ordinary man who has USD 800 salary and who has to work 2-3 years to buy This Dacia Logan.
You are laughing at Poles who work outside for a little flat. They will be happy to buy a cottage for USD 17 000 and to visit foreign states as tourists only.

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