Yeah, I think we're all agreed on this.....Polish people feel hard done by both as regards being acknowledged as important/timely participants during the war and also...their interpretation of being "sold out" by the western powers.....
At pains of repeating myself........many millions of the most battle hardened and fearsome soldiers were occupying eastern europe, the battle to defeat the Russians would have been far...far worse than defeating the germans.....
Neither the UK/USA felt this was a battle they could even contemplate......
I would not have liked to have had to make that decision to "liberate" EE from Russian control...........but someone did and had to live with it, as had millions of the EE peoples.
The uk borrowed 60+ million dollars/pounds from the usa because after the war (1945) we (UK)were virtually brought to our knees because we were fighting on our own with a few countries on our side.During the war,the usa watched the Uk on news reels get battered,Blits,Blown up.At this time the uk was virtually on its knees,The usa did not want to get involved....until Japan bombed Pearl Harbour. The Uk and some Other countries went to war in 1939 because Germany invaded Poland.So as rough as you had it we was there for you....the amercans lent this money to the uk and we have just this year 2007 have just paid it off.
Then this idea after the war was to rebuild cities that were very badly damaged after the war....The uk had to pay every single dollar back.....other countries had money to rebuild and they didnt owe nothing - that is so unfair.
So you could say our so called "uk and usa friendship" is not so friendly after all.
I heard about this on a radio station called "Talk sport" and the presenter was George Galloway.It was some Phone-in i was listening to.
It was quoted on his program that if we lost the war,the uk and other countries would be speaking in german.
Whoever the fault was that triggered that war,it was a horrible time for the people at the time.And many good people whether english,polish,french,american whatever lost there lives....I hope we will never see anything like that again.
The only thing we could do now is to try to forgive and try to learn from our mistakes.
Im sorry if some of you think im talking "crap" but it seems to me this world war we had has many versions to what happend.
Quote #67.Frank. All right, I accept your point of view- then why agree in the first place to a three way Polish, British, French treaty to mobilise within 2 weeks to come to each other's aid.So sorry I forgot- British aid consisted of dropping leaflets during the "Phony War" to the Germans. This contribution really helped...And Chamberlain was still stalling whilst Poland was being hammered, until Churchill ousted him.The French, on their way to aid Poland, stopped off in the Black Forrest, had a picnic , then went home. So on Sept.17,1939 instead of French help we received the Russians- also our Allies, from the East who scavenged what the Germans had destroyed North, West and South.
Secondly, the plan was to "sell out Poland" -yet Polish help was taken, never reciprocated, no thanks needed. Thirdly, perhaps Churchill should have refrained from blatatantly lying eg to General W. Anders:August 26 1944, "Great Britain entered this war in defence of the principle of your indepence, and I can assure you that we wil never desert you.....Great Britain..pledged and undertook the obligations for the existence of Poland as a free, independent, sovereign and great state...free from any alien interference."
"I and my friend President Roosevelt, who will again be elected President, will never abandon Poland. Put put your trust in us." Perhaps I misunderstood you- did you mean POLISH interpretation of being sold out? This is an INTERNATIONAL interpretation. Whether the Poles were at the table in Tehran despite Churchill's lies "You will be present at the conference" or not is irrellevant- the decisions made are.
anielka...yes...I agree.......it was all very unsatisfactory, but the ultimate BLAME for all of this lies at Germanys and Russia door...please bear this in mind at all times........
I said this before...these countries had only one thing in mind, that was to destroy and occupy Poland.....sure the response was poor from the allies, lies were told, outcomes were dreadful......but remember who charged across your borders in 1939....!
the german army was way too powerful, well trained, well led, and armed......plus they had the crazy arrogant self belief, that they were best........they were going to take a some serious stopping!!!
Still doesn't make things better........BUT...Poland now has a free future...make the most of it...grab it with both hands!
Does anyone remeber it was American buisness who help bankrolled Hitler and then changed sides, but no one cares to remember these details. It was also the CIA who help spirit away many of the most adept and dangerous Nazi's to South America, did we forget that?
Or the fact that People always mention the French underground resistance as if it was the only one. Forgetting that it was the communist led Italian resistance that was a major contributing factor in the down fall of Mussolini?
I could go on but can't be arsed...its history. Can't be changed and the truth is crushed through liberal media and lies.
Yes.. it was actually George Bush's grandfather Prescott Bush. Bush was the director of the New York-based Union Banking Corporation that represented Thyssen. Thyssen owned the largest steel and coal company in Germany and grew rich from Hitler's efforts to re-arm between the two world wars.
The rich, them against the poor us and most other poor bastards. The point is this until you read alternative historical view points by people like Noam Chomsky (currently a proffersor at MIT I believe, or at least a fellow), you will not have a balanced view point of what is going on nor what has happened before.
Chomsky can not change historical fact. The world plus the Arab states wanted Saddam out of Kuwait. Saddam got one third of his army destroyed. Talking about the rich against the poor does not change historic fact. By the way do you know, a majority of Americans do not agree with the current USA Foreign policy in the middle east.
spend a little time pondering why possibly there could be such anti-american sentiment... believe me... it has nothing to do with jelousy...
Saddam destroyed himself,his own people, and country. How many palaces did he have? A good bit of the anti-american sentiment is justified. Our last election will begin to rectify the situation. BubbaWoo, why won't you tell me your version of how the first Gulf war started. Maybe because you made up the fact that America started it. Maybe because you think the Americans and the Jews started everything bad in the world including aids.
BubbaWoo, why won't you tell me your version of how the first Gulf war started
to be blunt riff, because i dont think you are open to alternative views... it wont sit comfortably with what you know and accept as the truth... there was a time... when i was younger... when i would quite happily have debated for hours with you about it... but now i just cant be bothered...
if you really want to understand what other people believe... and why... do some research and open some doors to your mind...
Listen the US has murdered through its imperialist actions more people than Hitler, Stalin ever did. All the tinpot dictatorships through the the third world propt up by US aid. Man go away learn some truths and come back. Serious Chomsky, book called, "Understanding Power" awesome read, there are also lots of smaller booklets on specific issues like 9/11.
I like American's in general, I realise they are powerless to change their environment whether they like to or not. However, the level of propaganda and brain washing is very unnerving. Also the constant internal war that Washington and the Pentagon wages against its own population is terrifying. Look at the blacks in New Orleans. Look at the highest infant mortality rate in the so-called civilized world. Or the complete breakdown of the social care network. If I was American I'd probably live in Idaho on a minuteman compound, a waitin' for the war.......
Riff me ol china... throughout history, war planners have used various forms of deception to trick their enemies... some of these tricks are more subtle than others... because public support is so crucial to the process of initiating and waging war, the home population is also subject to deceitful stratagems...propaganda if you will...
...the creation of false excuses to justify going to war is a major first step in constructing public support for such deadly ventures.... and this was abundantly obvious in the case of both Gulf conflicts... for those who chose to see it...
Perhaps the most common pretext for war is an apparently unprovoked enemy attack.... 9/11... such attacks, however, are often fabricated, incited or deliberately allowed to occur.... in the case of 9/11 this is probably a little too much for you to be able to handle...
...these attacks are then exploited to arouse widespread public sympathy for the victims, demonize the attackers and build mass support for military *retaliation*... america is a nation that thrives on the idea of revenge... it is very easy for the american government to arouse such retaliatory thoughts amongst the population...
like playground bullies who shout *its his fault... he hit me first*, war planners know that it is irrelevant whether the opponent really did throw the first punch... as long as it can be made to appear that the attack was unprovoked, the bully receives license to respond with force.... america is adept at taking this stance... and even more adept and manipulating circumstance to make the appear the victim... both gulf conflicts...
....bullies and war planners are experts at taunting, teasing and threatening their opponents...if the enemy cannot be goaded into *firing the first shot* it is easy enough to lie about what happened.... and people are more than happy to belive these lies...
...pretext incidents in themselves are not sufficient to spark wars.... rumors and allegations about the tragic events must first spread throughout the target population.... propaganda... sound familiar...?
...constant repetition of the official version of what happened produces mindsets that are lodged into public consciousness.... communist witch hunts... war on terror... the stories become accepted without question...
the corporate media is central to the success of such *psychological operations*... and we know that america and the jews control the media... politicians rally people around the flag, lending their special oratory skills to the call for a military response... demands for retaliation... revenge... then ring out across the land, war hysteria mounts and, finally, a war is born...
...every time the US has gone to war, pretext incidents have been used.... it is obvious now for even the most ardent of supporters of GII that the whole pretext was built on a fabrication of lies and deceit... the same is true for GI... whether that sits comfortably with you or not...
... she has the most evil dirtiest sense of humour ever... i love it... and her... we spend hours taking the piss out of each other... she keeps threatening to beat me with a stick... and i try to explain that violence isnt the answer to everything...
The Uk did not want to go to war with Hitler, because A). We quite liked him. B). Most of our royals have german/protestant blood. C). Treaties mean jackshit always have always will. they are just pieces of paper. We only attacked Germany because we needed to secure our oil interests in North Africa. Eastern Europe held no interest for us.
it was all very unsatisfactory, but the ultimate BLAME for all of this lies at Germanys and Russia door...please bear this in mind at all times........
I said this before...these countries had only one thing in mind, that was to destroy and occupy Poland.....
Sorry Frank but, that's rather 13 y.o. kind of thinking... UK and France (and USA later too) simply wanted the 3rd Reich and the Soviet Union to finish off each other and didn't give a damn what happens with Poland, Baltics or any other country in the region, neither in 39, nor in 45.
Really...lol.......and your "theory" is backed up by what...so GB goaded the mighty German war machine to pick on its weaker neighbours, then sat cringing on the edge of Europe waiting to be finished off........then lulled the Germans into thinking they were mightier than they were........and sent cosmic waves to A Hitler in his eagles lair to attack the Russians and to hell with the consequences?
Utter rubbish
Really...lol.......and your "theory" is backed up by what...so GB goaded the mighty German war machine to pick on its weaker neighbours, then sat cringing on the edge of Europe waiting to be finished off........then lulled the Germans into thinking they were mightier than they were........and sent cosmic waves to A Hitler in his eagles lair to attack the Russians and to hell with the consequences?
Rather more like a fantasy scenario there G....which hollywood sript writer are you putting all your faith in now?
Giles, You better learn something. Your so called alternative views is a one person view, your Idol Chomsky. Aprox. Hitler 10 million, Stalin 20 million, All the tinpot ditatorships do not add up to these numbers. Even then those dictators still murdered their own people. You probably believe The US backed Mao to murder 20million of his own people. The US backed Polpot to murder 4 million of his people. According to your logic any country the US gives money to we are responsible for who they murder. Make up a new story, The US wanted Hitler and Stalin to murder all those people. I think you are brainwashed by Chomsky.
