Should Germany claim to be the victims in Poland?

Poles are rugged fighters, never say die. But Britain played a major part at that time

Sorry,but the force that smashed hitler did so by capturing berlin and killing the most germans,the RKKA/red army.Never mind what their bosses did it was Ivan who crushed the nazis,compared to the eastern front the western front was a war game."we" in the west go on and on about D Day and the "terrible" allied losses,2 thousand americans,no offence but that was a five minute burst of action at smolensk or kerch.As to numbers lost,The belrussians had a slightly higher percentage of population loss than poland and the USSR as a whole lost at least 27 million so I think that safely trumps 5.5 or 6 million in the slaughter stakes.

Anyhoo,the thread question was specificaly, were the germans who suffered in Poland/east prussia in 1945 victims?
I think it is safe to say they were,the vast majority were women and children and old men too old to serve the reich,and remember the volksturm made dads army look like crack commandos,forcibly evicted from homes they had either been in for generations or homes they had been dumped in under nazi resettlement programes of volksdeutshe from further east.Remember were not talking about SS men or camp guards here,were talking about normall families who just happened to be the wrong race/nationality at the wrong time in the wrong place. Surely if we are supposed to feel sorry for earlier victims of the same style of persecution we can muster a little sympathy for them?To not feel sympathy for their human suffering but to feel all gooey about someone elses just seems dammed hypocritical to me.

But who decided to move the Germans and give this to Poland? If I recall Poland was not included in this pow wow, right? Carol

Isthatu seems to have moved the thread back to topic, and in a good place. I like his way of thinking.

But I also agree with Celinski that Poland was not responsible for the suffering of "normal" Germans described by Isthatu in that area, or the ethnic Germans who had lived side-by-side fairly peaceably for many generations.

Therefore, I am against Poland having to compensate anyone. And being half ethnic German, with family who lost farms, I can see why some would want compensation. But there really is no one who can do that. If you go to other places in the world and back in time, there are similar things. Norman invasion of Britain. Anybody going to compensate the families of the Saxons that lost land to the Normans? I doubt it.

Some things cannot be made equal. Life is not fair. You make the best of it.

I am not as knowledgeable as some, but it seems the Potsdam Treaty was responsible for dislocating huge masses of peoples. Because of it, Poland gained a homogenized society for all intent and purpose. Maybe in the long run it was good, but in the short term, many people lost what was most familiar to them.

What is weird to me is how unaware most American people are to how Poland fared during and after the war, and how much pain, dislocation and suffering occurred for Poles and other nationalities. Poles need to get their story out, and so do others who suffered, so we can all learn to treat each other better. An exhibit about Germans, if done in the proper spirit of education could be beneficial. I have no idea if this particular exhibit meets those qualifications. But a knee-jerk reaction based on thinking it is about sympathy for Nazis can just serve to stir the pot up. Has anyone examined the content of the exhibit?

So while I have a hard time being sympathetic to Nazi Germans, and believe that any portrayal of victimization there would be an abomination, I do think an exhibit showing all the facts about innocent people living in that area would have merit in teaching people about the events of those days. I am still learning, myself.

I have nothing but admiration for Poland and how hard the country had to work to recover and rebuild.

To be honest, I don't try to change anyone's opinion about us because it would be a worthless thing to do. You have the right to think and believe what you want just like I do too. I just don't like you guys attacking us not being clean on your side at the same time. No matter what country you take, you will always find something to crack about. If it's not the history than it will be the customs, human behavior, looks etc.

It's not just America, ask the youth in Poland and I find this lack of history. Communist Poland made sure no one talked. For the most past the nation was hearing the Jewish about "Holocaust". Polish survivors of camps even in the USA still hold inside the horrors and fear the pain of thinking back. I often wondered if it was a Polish pride that make them suffered in silence?

Within the artical:

Critics argue that the exhibition is an attempt to re-write history, claiming that Germans are portrayed mostly as victims and the role of the Nazi regime is overlooked.

"We think that the struggle against totalitarianism, Nazism and Communism, and the resistance movements, were the most important parts of 20th Century history. The expulsion, especially of Germans, was only a consequence of that," said Slawomir Tryc from the Polish embassy in Berlin

Carol

No dude, I meant You ,specificaly yourself,not a whole nation,just you.


Sorry,but whats that got to do with recognising someones suffering,but,Im afraid you are wrong anyhow,as Polands communist govt was involved. The question wasnt who caused the suffering,just,did the inocent germans suffer.


Well said softsong,I want my families land back stolen by the english/loyalists in the highland clearances....but im not going to get it.

Let's change the point, future generations of Germans suffered huge guilt complexes after the Holocaust. How do I know? Well, my girlfriend's parents are Silesians who speak fluent German and Polish. They were frowned upon heavily in Poland when they spoke German, their first language. However, they were both born in Silesia, Poland. I also met Germans who expressed their guilt. Any intelligent person knows that they weren't to blame and shouldn't be held to account for the actions of previous generations, not even generations, individuals rather

Should Germany claim to be the victims in Poland?

Sure, why not, we need more victims & lawsuits, and the Germans can hire a good Jewish law firm!

I do not see this as Poland or her people.

still,doesnt mean we like you tho freebird

Well, you wrote "we" and not I. I don't have any problem because of you not liking me, lol. I don't like you at all but at least I'm not saying "we" when I mean myself.


If Soviet Union wouldn't get any help from us, they wouldn't beat down the Nazis like they did.

Dont make me laugh buddy,what help did the US give the USSR? a few crappy out of date fighter planes,some dodgy firearms that were imideatly put into storage and not used and some shermans that the RKKA ,like everyone else,thought were death traps. You carry on thingking USA saved the day if you like but Im afaraid the rest of the world knows the truth.....

Germans should not be compensated for several reasons. First Germany started the war. Second it wasn't Polands idea to shift the borders. The German govrrnment should compensate them. To a lesser extent the countries involved in the Yalta conference. Poland is the least responsible of any country. Also surprised that this is an issue. Poland was destroyed and you didn't see any lawsuits brought against Germany. Well To be fair their was this one guy who spent time in a concentration camp but that was after Germans wanted compensation.

Er,its not,read the thread title again,and maybe a few other posts on the thread.Youve missed the point by a mile.

isthatu I know the title of the thread idiot the issues are intrrelated. By them claiming compensation that is a form of them trying to potray themselves as victims. If you don't see that they are related you need to work on your reasoning

Ooh,get her.....
The thread is about a museum in germany that highlights all the refugee problems of 20th century europe and the world,included are the germans forced out by the soviets/polish communists. Thats the issue,nothing about compensation,dura.

they are related I don't know how to make myself clearer. it boils down to portraying themselves as victims. but so your satisfied the musuem is k if its takes the whole war into account. not k if it focuses only on the expulsion of germans which majority were all too happy to follow hitler. also like to point out it wasn't polands idea to shift borders. you can blame the powers at the yalta conference. also germany for starting the mess. polish communists were the least responsible. wow never thought ill be defending polish communists but it is true

The generations who took part in WW2 did do too.

I lived in Germany about 1 year where I had a chance to chat with a lot of elderly Germans. As soon as it transpired I was Polish they would suddenly start talking how during WW2 they were in North Africa, or they were railway engineers. Just out of the blue. The war wasn't even a topic of the conversation.

None of the dozens (perhaps hundreds) of Germans I met, and who were adults during WW2, were in Poland. If they were, that was only as railway engineers. I found it very peculiar.

I think Im with you,yes. If the museum was soley about say the expulsion of ethnic germans from east prussia say,yes ,I would be "against" it,as it is a museum dedicated to all suffering,and showing the german aspect in context Im all for it,after all,Ive said in an earlier post that imo if it helps to show someone the consequences of starting wars then it can only be a good thing.

I think we agree, however just to make sure the musuem should not just include expulsions of all the people of europe but also the events that led to these expulsions. if so then we agree

isthatu, things are not always what thye appear on paper, and I'm sure you know it. I only wonder why you insist on using this strange "soviet/polish government" when you know there was nothing Polish about that government. It was a bunch of Soviet puppets that UK and US rushed to recognize as legit, even though they were in regular contact with the real Polish government in exile - the same government they asked for Polish forces to help the war effort. Between the years 1945 and 1989 what they called Polish government were Moscow appointed figureheads. In practical terms that was not much different than the times of Poland's partitions.

As for the expulsions of Germans, other than my feeling that they got what they deserved, I'd like you to think how would the situation look in what is now Western Poland, should all the Germans be allowed to stay. This is speculation but here it goes;

IMO the situation would be incomparably worse than Northern Ireland in the last few decades. Just think about it: opressors and their victims asked to live as neighbors within months, sometime days of people having lost a family member as a result of the war. That would be like sitting ona barrel of TNT.

Even with most Germans forced out of the area, Poles who were ordered to fill the void (expulsions from the East) were never feeling at home. It took about two generations for people to start feeling at home. Before that, the generation of my grandparents and my parents lived with this daily reminder: not worth taking care of this land because Germans will come back and take it away, yet again.

Given the new borders that the Soviets and the Western Allies imposed on Poland and Germany, the expulsions of Germans were logical and necessary consequences. The expulsions of Germans was certainly more humane than letting them stay, having first gassed them and incinerated their remains. I'm sure 3.7 milion Poles and 3 milion Polish Jews would have loved to have been expelled, rather than "allowed to stay" for good.

That would be pick and choose. No maybe if we had gas chambers on displayed...
The Forgotten Photo's 1939-45
hollow.one.free.fr

We do,100%.


agreed.


like it or not,by the time of the expulsions the "Lublin" govt was the de facto govt of Poland,they may not have been the "right sort" of Poles in the govt but they certainly wernt nigerians or Argentinians.I use the Soviets along side the Polish communists to show the fact that the Polish communists were,ahem "supported" by the soviets.


I would hope you feel the same way about say palestinain women and children forced out of their homes by the IDF because one or two men from a community of hundreds may have commited crimes/murders.

IMO "they" didnt get what they deserved,by and large the Guilty had either been shot,or escaped back to germany wth the other ranking nazis and the armed forces.


I wont argue there,but to say the germans didnt suffer the expulsions misses a point,they did,it is only speculation to say what may have happened,however probable,however,that people who may have had nothing to do,or as little as possible rather,to do with the nazi regime,its rise to power or its subsequent conduct,were penalised and suffered along with guilty parties such as those who had riden on the shirt tails of the whermacht into their little peice of living space is the point here,I think,the point would seem to be to show that nobody "wins" that even the innocent suffer . I am always reminded of an old boy I met at work once,his father was German but had lived in Poland all his life so in 1939 joined up with the Polish army and was killed defending his homeland,as he saw Poland,after the war the family were forced to leave and ended up in Britain as,although the Polish govt saw them as germans,moving to germany was seen by the family as moving to the land that had caused so much suffering for their country,Poland,as my work had taken me into this gentlemans home I was able to see his fathers picture,a fine looking chap in a wz31.


wouldnt really work,as a plain room isnt really all that impresive,and going into them at say auschwitz,is imo a bit creapy,and I dont mean in a ergh,there might be ghosties in here way,I mean,its a scene of so much suffering why would you want to stand there?

Lots of railway engineers were needed to clear the land for the rails.

its hard to say which country was responsible for the defeat of the germans, no country on its own could do it. but here is my ranking: Russia UK, US, Poland, France, Canada, don't care about the rest. Poland maybe above US because of poles breaking of the code , uprising, help in battle of Britain and other major battles. Would like to know others input

My ranking:

1.Place) Russia

2.Place) US

...everybody else didn't really matter as without those two they (also the UK) would have been toast sooner or later (if they weren't already)!

The Russians had the winter, endless human waves and a highly admirable fighting spirit, the US provided the enormous material and support for the allies needed to keep going. (Not to forget the race for the nuke!)

It was this deadly combo needed to break the German's neck!

US was most responsible if not the only one responsible for the defeat of Japan. But I think UK contributed more then the US when it came to germany. Its a hard topic looking for more input. Bratwurst RUSSIA definatly first. U say US second I say UK anybody else.

Your right Russia had the winter and endless human waves. Not sure if fighting spirit was so significant. I know Russians would send their soldiers in waves at Germans without any weapons and if they refused they would kill their own soldiers. So yes they did have that fighting spirit but that was more because they had no choice. fighting spirit hands down was Poland though militarly weak and easily defeated.

I think you're shooting yourself in the foot here. The "Polish Committee of National Liberation" (PKWN) as it was known, was a bunch of Soviet puppets. Polish government in exile was still recognized by the UK and US at the time until July 6, 1945, so untill then the de facto government of Poland was not PKWN.

Expulsions were decided at Cecilienhof (aka Potsdam Conference). No Polish representatives were not invited to the conference. You could blame Soviets, British, Americans but I see no grounds for blaming Poles for the expulsions of Germans. No representative of Polish government, communist or not, had any say in this.


C'mon, I thought we had a deal to be serious. You can't honestly compare Palestinians to Germans.


I agree with that, and I hope you won’t take it as a condescending comment when I say nothing is news to me here. I haven't mentioned much about that experience but, since you shift somewhat to the human/individual dimension, I will tell you that those stories while not personally mine (I’m 45), are a part of my closest family’s experience. Lots of stories, photographs, documents that I did not have to search among the pages of learned books. They are in our family albums. I know these stories from my grandmothers, my aunts and uncles (my mom was too young to remember much). Still, I played with some spoils of war when I was a kid - rusty Schmeisser machine guns, a bent CKM (heavy machine gun) and various similar pieces from WW2. There were quite a few of those in the village where my mom comes from and where Germans, and later Soviets, stationed on and off.

An exactly the same story as you described is a part of my family’s experience. An uncle of mine escaped from a transport to Siberia in 1945. He evaded search dogs by spending a night laying in piles of human sh.it. He lived under a false name until 1956. His "crime" was that he had been an AK soldier. He fought against Germans but was not pro-communist.

That’s just one personal story. One of millions that touched virtually every family in Poland and just one of many that touched mine.

Then there was an aunt who is an Auschwitz survivor, and two uncles who were prisoners in two other concentration camps, later transferred to Germany as slave laborers. There was an uncle who fought in BCh (Peasants Battalions), and a grandfather who was killed as underground soldier, another grandfather who took part in… well, pogroms. But these were not anti-Jewish pogroms. He was a part of an underground detachment who hunted down and killed nazi-collaborators in the area (Pinczów Republic). My wife’s grandfather was killed in Sachsenhausen. Her other grandparents escaped Ukrainian pogroms against Poles. An uncle of hers escaped from Poland to London (yet another AK soldier). His wife still lives in Cheswick. Another uncle was killed on the Western front. I could go on for quite a bit longer and describe more detail, some of it very interesting, some of it sad, some moving some outrageous.

I know those stories, isthatu. I know them very well but I don’t mind that you refer to them. And again, I trust you take what I wrote here as an honest account rather than just a few words I am bouncing back at you. I rarely use them in conversations on open forums like this one, even though some of them could easily be used as potent arguments in our little debates. I also hope that you realize that when I say I understand what you write about WW2 that means I really do.


Lots is relative for starters.
And then, they didn't "waste" too many engineers on those jobs. They used slave laborers for them. It was actually a policy since using Polish laborers meant the partisans were less likely to hit the repair crew and thus the Geman who oversaw the work.

I must aggree, this was not Poland, this was Stalin running Poland. It is due to this takeover of Poland, militay had to be exiled,"enimies of the state" or be killed, so I guess they had a choice.

What makes you think so?

The Wehrmacht chased the Brits from the continent at Dunkirk and they never made it back till D-Day.
Without the US support and their allying with GB the U-Boats just needed to isolate them and Churchill without any hope or support would have negotiated for an armistice soon.

Germany didn't needed to invade only isolate....

The life line of the Brits was the US! The british isles could have never done it alone, not against a continent in german hands....