Should Germany claim to be the victims in Poland?

OK I M GOING TO CLOSE THIS ISSUE BECAUSE I M BORED

IT IS GOOD TUSK MADE THIS PROPOSAL ... OF COURSE WE KNOW IT WILL BE REJECTED ... WE KNOW THAT ... BUT IT IS RESPONSIBLE PROPOSAL ...

WE WILL HAVE OUR EFFECT .. GERMAN FORMER NAZISTS BUILD CENTER IN BERLIN SHOWING THEM AS VICITMS (BTW YOU ARE DUMB IN THIS CASE GIVE ORGANISATION OF SUCH PROJECT FOR FORMER SS SOLDIERS. IDIOTS!!! )

BUT WE WILL SHOW THIS FACT ... WE GAVE RESPONSBLE PROPOSAL ... NOT BERLIN NOT FORMER SS SOLDIERS ...

What are they teaching you in schools BB? :))

man, just don`t join to German contingent on Kosovo.

:)


while you know much about failures of Slavic politicians, you don`t know nothing about Slavs

Are the facts lying Maty?

Millions of Poles in Silesia as Germany ruled.
Zero (without the odd one still standing) Germans in Silesia after Poles started to rule..


You mean the soon-to-be-independent Kosovo?


Right now you are a pathetic figure...but hey...don't lose hope...there will be better times!

*hugs crow*

I mean, forget about that contingent

:)

but what has all this got to do with an exibition about Germans that were expelled for The eastern part of Germay in 1945 ..????

Well...

Oh my, I feel as if I was called to the table. :) Very well than, lets start with the parts of your post that I put into question. :)


How horribly was the Prussian rule?

The Silesia became Prussian in 1763. At this point majority of it's inhabitants spoke polish. One year later Friedrich II von Hohenzollern wrote an edict which forbid using the polish language in the courts, offices and in schools. Then Poles were forbidden to acquire medium and higher education. Then the Prussian government started to settle Germans in these lands.

In 1791 the first partition of Poland between Prussia, Russia and Austria took place. Basically immediately the Prussians started to Germanize the part of Poland that came under their rule. The confiscated land from the polish clergy and kościuszko raising participants were given away to German settlers. There were carried out actions of buying out land from Poles and selling them only to German settlers. Just like in Silesia it was forbidden to use polish language in schools, offices and courts. Eventually poles were forbidden to build their own houses. All this actions were being accompanied with German settlement on those new acquired lands. In the period from 1885-1890 there were mass deportations of Poles from Prussia later called “Prussian expulsions”, etc…

Then came the WWI and in effect Polish state was re-establish, but this time, because of the former politics of German colonization, with a large group of German citizens. Despite the ill-treatment from the Prussian government which I already described earlier in this post, those German citizens were not forbidden to speak their language, not forbidden to buy land and build a house on it, etc They were granted the status of “ethnic minority” and had a pretty well life here for as long as the Second Republic of Poland lasted, so until the outbreak of WWII.

So, Bboy, where exactly do you see ethnic cleansed here?


Facts never lie. But people like you do.

Zero Germans in Silesia? Another lie! There are 1 792 Germans living in the Lower Silesia Voidvoidship, 30 531 Germans in Silesia Voidvoidship, 104 399 in Opole Voidvoidship, together there are 147 094 Germans living now in Poland.

Detailed account is what matters.Not the general forms.Very good presentation,Matyjasz.You make it difficult to answer.If they do,they will fall into nationalism and racism.You eliminate them.

Boy...you guys have it with the heavy words..."eliminate"..."exterminate"...


For Maty...let the facts speak...regardless what somehwere someone has wished or written the FACT is that before the WWII Millions of Poles lived in Silesia...who spoke Polish, felt Polish, who wanted to be part of Poland (hence the uprisings)...so every form of Germanization can't be what you think it was.

Where do I lie?

A real example of Germanization are the Poles who immigrated in the last century into the Ruhrgebiet to work in the Mines etc....they became Germans,fully Germans, they speak German, feel German, fighted for Germany, today only recognizable because of their 'ski in the surname.

THAT was Germanization and it was voluntarily!
Stop that Propaganda ****....

The other FACT is after the Poles startet to rule in Silesia they made the Germans leaving, the stole their belongings, took over their farms and houses.

The few who are still there barely count (I mentioned the "odd" ones).
There lived once MILLIONS of Germans beside the Poles and in some regions they were the clear majority...where are they now?

You don't even want to acknowledge this facts...don't want that Germans remember...

THAT ARE THE FACTS!

It's not a fact. It's your perception.
Soviets made the rules and the western allies either sat silent or OK'ed it all. Poles were not the decision makers in their own country.


Look for them in what is now Germany. Unlike millions of Poles, Jews, Russians and others they were not incinerated or burried in collective graves.

What is that for a post...

That they and their descendants live in what is now Germany was never the question (those who survived the Expellation that is).

It's them who want to remember the fate of their families...and THAT seems to be a huge Problem for some Poles!

Im mixed about that, my heart says ,yes,it was a war crime to deliberatly target areas of high civilian concentration and focus on targets that would "burn well" and the numbers of dead speak for themselves.

On the other hand,I know or rather can quite safely speculate that had the Germans the air power in 1940 that the allies had from '43 onwards they would have used it just as ruthlesley on Britains cities.

So,in the end,even though it wouldnt have won the war on its own,the allied bombing campaign was just one part of the effort to crush nazi germany as swiftly as possible so I wont pass judgement on the 55'000 Bomber Command lads who died trying to buy my future freedom.

I do remember a Der Spiegal special from a couple of years ago that was all about the allied " terror raids" but it also had a articale about the London Blitz,and my limited German was enough to get the idea that even they addmited that had germany the air power it would have done the same.

Can't be what I think it was?

Actually I didn't write what I think germanization was, but I pointed out sheer facts. If you think that they are untrue than you are more than welcome to provide counterarguments.


Well for starters, here:


And here:


You imply that after the Poles took control of Silesia they started an ethnic clean which is an evident lie. As I stated in my previous post, poles took control of parts of Silesia after WWI has ended and together with the land came hundreds thousands of German citizens under Polish jurisdiction, which were granted the status of an ethnic minority. Nobody stole their land, money, houses, etc.. Moreover, they were given rights of which poles living under German rule could only dream of. And what was their thank you for that? Organizations like Schelbtschutz, members of which were aside young men also big numbers of women and elderly people, which engaged in hostility towards the Polish population and military, performed sabotage operations, made lists of Poles who later were to be arrested or executed in Operation Tannenberg and organized concentration camps for those people. 90% of people from those lists were later on killed in a cruel way. Talking about facts speaking for themselves, innit?

Maybe this has something to do with recent intrest.

Wroclaw: Pre-war road something to thank the Germans for
By Jan Cienski in Wroclaw

Published: December 12 2007 06:58 | Last updated: December 12 2007 06:58

Many of the farmers have become millionaires by selling off their valuable land, on which people are now building houses and apartments. Superstores line the motorway south of Wroclaw.

ft.com/cms/s/cadd5d16-a7c2-11dc-9485-0000779fd2ac,dwp_uuid=4a3811a4-a7c4-11dc-9485-0000779fd2ac.html

Guess why Germans built such broad roads pre-war.

OK maybe instead of arguing with BB ...

I will present the other issue connected with Silesia ...

when they got rid of all Poles living there Lower Silesia changed into SS/Nazi bastion ...

it was the center of SS/Nazi F***** ... (BTW BB is one of those TRUE GERMANS ;) who call this land their homeland )

Germans decided to hide Gold robed in Poland from Poles and Jews etc ...

The part of it is hiden somewhere in Lower Silesia ... famous Golden Train of 3rd Reich ... full of gold ,diamonds etc ...

It is really hard to find it, because Germans have hiden it one of old mines or their bunkers ... there are thousends of kilometers of it ... when Germans were moving back they destroyed a lot of mines bunkers (some times 20 condigantions under the level of Ground) for example in some places they changed the ways of undergorund rivers that they partly go throught the bunkers or mines. Sometimes to search in some places you have to destroy or evacuate part of town or vilage bacause they are above mine/underground bunkers ... What is sure somewhere in Lower Silesia there is this treasure ... Poles Germans and Jews know about it ... When in '80 commie gov started to do researches our Army inteligency noticed rapidly increase of German inteligency activity in this region ... there is much more details but shortly ... Germans have maps and we have the land ...

and Old Nazi F***** are older and older ... and they have to give their secret for someone ... (some of them are so old but still in good condition ... maybe because of robed diamods in their pockets they have the best health care ... )

I think that some of them realized that they are not going to take Lower Silesia in nearst time and they are really flustarted ...

and we wait ... because more and more former Nazist Germans who could keep secred die :) maybe their kids or someone ealse who will just take small percent of value of this treasure instead of having nothing ...

as to the subject ... I m 100% sure that most of Germans (and Poles) think that this case is about nazi Germans who had to leave our land . From the other hand it is noticable that some Germans with "glourios" (sic!) past instead of being calmer and so on ... are more and more F***** UP ;)

maybe this story looks a little bit fantastic ... but why a hell German inteligency when sb tries to find this treasure starts to observe whole action ... beacuse this train exists, like other founded in Hungary or in other parts of Europe ... but this one is much better hiden.

cheers

you guys are right.they did.my grandparents spent the whole war in germany.they were captured in their towns and sent deep into germany's territory to work.how much did they earn daily?just guess.nothing.they struggled to survive on food they got.after 5 years they were freed by the americans.50 years later they received a compenstation.5000 deutsch marks each.wow!they were lucky to be alive anyway.others never got anything.god bless the 3rd reich!

That's why we helped Poland into the "club", so that we can have access to Silesia again...


You got it man! :)

PS: I especially like the heart shaped blue glass...erm....diamond.
Can I have it?

:)

yes yes You have acces just come to Poland and start diging :)))


I 've just taken first googled pictures of diamonds ... but surely it isnt true one.

as to Germans thugs (story of one of magaiznes with gold) there were hungarian transport of gold (have been captured) ... but we know that in silesia there is another magazine with gold, diamonds...



our GOLD ! grrrrrr

Hehe! :)

You coming too? We better tell nobody!

:)

tell George Bush...he'll say they're WMD...bomb the fuk out of the place leaving big craters, then you can just help yourself to all the gold and diamonds

I myself have a pretty strong verdict on the 3rd Reich:

-It was the most monstrous regime in history of mankind (I don't even bother with the polite cliché: 'one of..."). With all that so-called efficiency based on mercilessness, pride based on humiliating others, full employment based on exterminating the invalid, order based on absolute dictatorship, prosperity based on stealing and robbery and adding about 50 million lives expended for that glory, I suppose Germany actually carried the definition of monstrosity to the new height!

About the other issue, I think it is a gross fallacy in presuming that since there were still millions of Poles in Silesia and Prussia, the German racial leniency must have been exemplary. In reality, those few Poles were only the strongest resisters and the last remnant of a much more numerous contingent of Poles who had withered under the onslaught of the world-renown Germanisierung (which had claimed many weaker resisters, notably the old Prussians and almost the Czechs). The fact that there are still roughly 50 million Poles worldwide certainly owns no thanks to the perfectionism of the Bundestag!

Finally, return to the more topical of Polish-German controversy, again I stress that in 1945 Germans were victims of none other than the stupidity and vanity of their leaders (and accordingly, of those who voted and supported them, i.e. the huge majority of working Germans). I am not sure what the Berlin museum will portray so it is rather early to form my usually strong judgement. But if it follows the path everyone suspects, that is only expressing concerns solely for the expulsed Germans, which means Poles and Czechs have to be in bad light (unavoidable since they WERE the expulsers), then again Germany is the cowardly twister of history. 'Cowardly' because it seems safe for Germans to pick on the Poles and Czechs at this moment while in my opinion, Berlin is more proper a place to erect a museum for tens of thousands German women raped by Soviet soldiers (in this respect, German women are certainly more 'prudish' than their Filipina, Korean and Chinese equivalent!) And 'Twister' because it tries to freeze the whole massive and complex span of the WW2 into a extremely short period at a very local place where Germans appeared like absolute angels and the rest the epitome of chimpanzees (well of course, there would be some 'humanistic' scenarios here when a certain Pole suddenly awoke from his everlasting drunkenness and tearfully asked an elderly German-his victim the forgiveness - AND the victim grandly forgave and forgot!) I think again Germany is again trying to turn their economic advantage into historical advantage that will clearly perpetuate their overall advantage. Indeed, there is no better word to describe it other than Injustice!

There is only one rule of justice concerning history, either we all forget it utterly or we remember it in its most completeness and exactness.

Blah blah blah

The Soviets killed far more people than the Nazis, not to mention China etc. and the "few" resisting Poles in Silesia numbered MILLIONS but don't let these facts stop you!

But one thing you got right: If we do something we do it right! :)

The point is that both killed a lot of people...there are no better ones...

Of course I want to stress their strength which I admire, simple as that!


Well, at least you confess that someone else is more 'perfectionist' than you!

By the way, Could you please put the quote in my post saying that: "if Germany does something, she does it right"?
I certainly can't be that babbling!

Tja...millions of Poles under German rule!
Only few Germans under polish rule!

It's as simple as that!


I would agree...

You would...you don't ? ;)

Do not worry Lukasz.Your gold lies in very safe places in Switzerland.

Nah, you 'had' twice their population and a lot more luck (since France can't be compared with Russia in terms of militancy). And even now, your chancelloress would get pissed in their magazines as frequently as any porno starlet. What an embarrassment for a proper Nazi male like you, eh!