"GANGING UP" ON POLAND?

Well, BK was one of the Polish concentration camps....

Harry


But to fulfill the requirements, technically, you'd have to provide at least two.

Alright then:
a) Too easy! How many men who fought alongside Polish forces ended up in the interbellum Polish concentration camp? (Or the place-set-up-at-the-suggestion-of-Goering-(who-had-instigated-such-a-c enter-at-Dachau)-where-people-are-held-indefinitely-without-charge-or- trial-and-are-held-70-to-a-cell-and-frequently-tortured-but-this-isn’t -a-concentration’ camp, as you'd no doubt prefer me to describe it). While that concentration camp was far less brutal than the post-WWII Polish concentration camps, there's no chance for Poles to argue that it wasn't really Polish, a tactic they use to excuse the post-WWII Polish concentration camps.

I don't get it... you haven't provided two (?), and if you have, then only one is linked with the betrayal of the Ukrainians in Peace of Riga? That is the point of the exercise, right?

Not as I see it. The challenge from 1jola was to "add the phrase". I've done so. And it is kind of linked to the betrayal of the Ukrainians in Peace of Riga

While thinking about it, I've also realised how to get the other two in:
b) "Polish anti-Semitism," Polish anti-semitism was at the very least matched by Ukrainian anti-semitism, a fact which makes it hard to have too much sympathy for the Ukrainian nation with regards to them getting stabbed in the back by Poland.

c) "Polish Nazi collaboration," Ukrainian collaboration with the Nazis was far greater than Polish Nazi collaboration, perhaps this can be explained in part by Ukraine being stabbed in the back by Poland and then occupied by Poland and the USSR showing Ukraine that it needed to fight both of its neighbours.

WINNER!

Oh, so that's all you're trying to do. I'd thought you were trying to... never mind. Good job, I guess? =p

Hi, there. But I asked you to provide the info on how it was more violent than what Poles did in Ukraine, Lithuania and Bielorus'. Regarding the forced buy-outs, they still were purchased and the owner got the money. Explain how Polish were comrising 60% of L'viv population in 1939, whereas all the territories around it, including 100 km in the direction of Poland were populated in majority by Ukrainians.

Nathan: cherry-picking, you are. I therefore will not respond.

Well, Poland tried and fail, how make it backstabbing?
Ukrainian allies did not muster support for their cause and Poland had no strength to build Ukrainian state from the scratch.
So, what is your point?
Nevertheless Harry is slandering anyone who say that Britain betrayed Poland in the end of WWII. It contradiction he did not care to explain.


Hi! Stop spreading that rubbish and lies.

Maybe you should read again about the nature of this "Kulturkampf"?


It wasn't a Kampf against the Poles or the polish Culture...it was a struggle to secularize and modernize the state, to take away some of the restricting powers of the mighty roman catholic church in regards to education for example.


Something every modern western state does now the same!

It surely was seen by the catholic Poles living between the german borders as an attack on their culture, as "germanization", but it wasn't.

Many german Catholics hated Bismarck for that too...

Given that much of the state were Polish lands taken by force and that for us religion at the time was deeply intertwined with Polish culture it was definitely against the Poles and their culture, i understand that for a German it might be strange but for us our lands were always our lands even if occupied by Germans and Germans enforcing their laws on us was nothing short of brutal occupation.

To include us under a German law would mean that Germany had any moral authority to excersize any laws upon people it essentially enslaved after invading and occupying their country.

Thats all apart from the fact that Bismarck was a prick who hated Poland (mainly because its lands constituted a healthy part of his country and Poles wanted it back) and he knew religion to be one of our cultural pillars, so yeah it was targeted at Poland.

Just backwards, religious hardcore christian talibans...who cares! :)

Bismarck paved the way to modernize a country in secularizing it.
Every modern country today is secular...

It's alone the Poles who made it into a "anti-polish germanization" (as in Posen).

In 1848 Kraków and Lviv were centers of revolution against Austria, and in 1861 Galicia won limited autonomy, including representation in the Austrian parliament, where Galician deputies formed a powerful bloc. Polish, spoken in W Galicia, and Ukrainian, spoken in E Galicia, became official languages along with German;

answers.com/topic/galicia
Why is that? Because Ukrainians were the majority of the population in Eastern Galicia. As you can see from the map Eastern Galicia went deep into the present territory of Poland. Lviv is roughly 80 km from the border, so I added another 20km, but it was definately more according to the Austrian map.

According to the 1931 Polish Government Census, Poles numbered 198,212 (63.5%) of the population, with Jews numbering 75,316 (24.1%) and Ukrainians numbering 35,137 (11.3%). Polish population of the city spoke its distinct dialect.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lviv
Why is this discrapancy in population of the cities and suburbs, because of Polonization and Pacification Poland was waging on Ukrainians and not only, many minorities where prohibited from studying, publishing, forget about living within the city. Unless you forgot your language, culture, religion and sold oneself out.

Please, show me where I lied.

BB, what you said is something I remember studying in school. But I asked some of the posters to bring me comparison to what was done by Poles on Ukrainian lands and as far as I see, PK refused to answer. Sad. Because it is obviously can't even be compared.

• 
  This is a map of West and East Galicia in 18th century.
  

Eastern Malopolska were populated by Ukrainians and Poles in the way that both populations were mixed on some territories and on some were one population were majority - I call it pockets!

Those so called pockets was making impossible to draw a border, more complication with towns were majority constituted Poles or Jews never Ukrainians due to social and cultural conditions.

You are making out of nothing Nathan - as usually? :)

That's what I said if I understand you correctly :) Though I have no idea what Malopolska is. Western Galicia? I am not claiming Peremyshel or other cities in Poland. I simply presented the answer to the PK statement:


Also there was a word "Kulturkampf", usage of which in comparison to Polonization and Pacification policy of Poland in Eastern Europe is preposterous. He refused to answer my question. If you want, please, draw comparison and tell me whether Poles behaved nicer than Germans in Kulturkampf.

Except that's not what happened at all. I provided a list of actions carried out against Polish culture in Prussian Poland, and you selected one item from that list, asked me to compare it to the Polonisation procedure, and have the gall to be indignant when I do not respond? Please don't pull the Chewbacca Defense card on me, because in most cases, I'd find it not worth my time to even call you on it.

No BB, unless you want to call Poland an unmodern state. We get married in church here and do not need to go to any civil ceremony. That's all that is required. Of course, if you don't have a church wedding, you have a civil ceremony.


Your "explanation" was weak and evasive, somewhat bizzarre, and not at all on topic.

Poland promised not to sign a separate peace treaty with the USSR: after Ukrainians had fought for Poland (and after the miracle on the Wisla) Poland signed a separate peace treaty with the USSR. Poland promised to recognise the Ukrainian state: Poland did not recognise the Ukrainian state. Poland promised the Ukrainian minority living in Poland certain rights: Poland did not give those people those rights. After the treaty of Riga was signed, Poland locked Ukrainian officers up in internment camps. Poland did not need to do any of those things and that is why it is correct to say that Poland stabbed her allies in the back.


Please point to the parts of the Anglo-Polish treaty which Britain did not observe.


As you have already been exposed as a liar in this thread, you might want to think twice before accusing others of lying.


The Polish and Ukrainian governments managed to draw a border. And then the Polish government stabbed their Ukrainian allies in the back.


Not at all: I pointed out that compared to the way that Poland had treated her ally in the previous war, Poland was treated very very well by her WWII ally Britain.

I'm going to quote you in the future on that. Good boy.


You have written some stupid things on this board, but that is the dumbest thing you have produced so far.


I hate to speak for Ironside, but the first liar doesn't have a chance here.


But that is the point of me asking you to explain what you believe. Somehow you are linking those two events together. Do you really think Churchill(Britain) thought of the Ukraine when he was stabbing Poland in the back in Tehran and Yalta?

The second part of that is, do you think that being sold into Stalinist slavery was a good deal that Poland deserved?

Go ahead. There are many sources which tell of how the Ukrainian officers (including Petlura, the head of the Ukrainian state) were locked up in internment camps. However, those camps closed several years before Poland opened its first concentration camp at Bereza Kartuzka.


As it is so dumb, you will have no problem at all in quoting all the parts of the treat which Britain did not observe. I would look forward to reading them but let’s face it, you’re never going to post any.


As you have been caught lying about a Ukrainian state not existing before 1991, you might also want to not talk about lying.


You might wish to check exactly who decided what in Tehran. You might also want to check which of the following two things FDR considered to be the biggest threat to world peace: British imperialism or Soviet communism.


You may wish to check which of the Western allies planned an offensive to drive the Soviets out of Poland. Here's a hint: it was rejected largely because the armed forces of which you would later become a member were needed but could not be counted on.

Poland in the Second World War: J. Garliński-quoted from author's notes.


My correspondence box hence first line of post:
Poland in the Second World War: J. Garliński-quoted from author's notes.

PK, am I missing something? You said that Kulturkampf was more brutal or harsh than Polonization and Pacification, right? All I am asking, and you called it "cherry-picking", to show where Germans were more harsh than Poles. That's all. Read the first quote of what you have said and explain it, please. If you said something you didn't want to, I will understand. Thank you in advance for the explanation.

I think he meant that: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germanisation_of_Posen#Failure_of_the_policy

Forgetting to mention how "brutal" and "harsh" it was in reality:


Man, how brutal and harsh this Germanization was!

You've got to say one thing about Prussia, despite being a grandmother of the III Reich it was a coutry of law and order, maybe not justice but law and order, as long as Poles could outsmart German law (which they quite often could) Germans would just roll with it as long as it was legal.

It's not the worst of societies to live in! :)

That is my weakness about Germans. I even apply their methods in my garden. No "English style" mess. All plants are in nice formations, like little soldiers along side the fence.

Ordnung muss sein!

Well...you get things done with this credo! :)

No but switch the tables, imagine that Poland after the fall of the Teutonic Order proceeded to systematically ocupy large parts of Germany and then forced you to undergo Polonization in accordance with its laws, not as bad as Nazi Germany but definitely not fun for any sovereign nation.

Nathan:


Yes, I believe you are missing something. It seems to me that the only thing you're not missing is the specifics of transfer of property from Polish/Ukrainian to German/Polish inhabitants. This did not, however, comprise the full extent of my post, and using this lone example in comparison to a counterpart as a representation of the whole of the procedures in question... I have no idea what you're getting at. So, if you're pulling a Chewbacca Defense, then congratulations, you've succeeded. I am now thoroughly confused, and as such will not respond. If, on the other hand, you actually do want a response from me that actually makes sense, please clarify, first, the matter for me, as to what exactly you're going at?

I feel you don't want to answer my question here. You stuck on one example I gave in posts way before that, where the Polish property was bought out by Germans. But my question is above: SHOW WHERE GERMANS WERE HARSHER AND MORE BRUTAL IN EITHER KULTURKAMPF OR GERMANIZATION TOWARDS POLES AS COMPARED WITH POLISH POLONIZATION AND PACIFICATION IN THE EASTERN EUROPE. Is it hard to understand this sentence?

Btw., whatever your Chewbacca defense means, I use here more offense to test the truth. Right now I don't feel any defense on your side. :)