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Operation Market Garden, what went wrong?


OP Wroclaw Boy  
10 Jul 2008 /  #31
were the poles even in market garden,

yes

did they have a shotgun between three of them

They were fighting with the AEF so im thinking that each had their own firearms as Poland was occupied at the beginning of War and therefore were pretty much out of the equation. Which as I might add instigated their communist state which was partly the fault of the big three and inturn led to Poles migrating recently to other EU countries.
Franek  8 | 271  
10 Jul 2008 /  #32
were the poles even in market garden, ? did they have a shotgun between three of them

YOU IDIOT!
Isthatu2, Did you listen to the Old Polish Soldier in Ski's Video ?
He was asked what he thought about the British.
I think that his words were BRITISH/ who wants to talk about the British.. SHAMEFULL

Are u still with me?
OP Wroclaw Boy  
10 Jul 2008 /  #33
I think that his words were BRITISH/ who wants to talk about the British.. SHAMEFULL

I heard that, what was he talking about? Was it that the armoured divisions couldn't brake through? Cheeky Bastardo.
isthatu2  4 | 2692  
10 Jul 2008 /  #34
Isthatu2, Did you listen to the Old Polish Soldier in Ski's Video ?

No,do tell.....
Funny Franek,you try and divide the British and Polish veterens,aint gonna work mate,the veterens groups I worked with had as many Poles as Brits in them......They fought and died side by side you silly old plum....
Franek  8 | 271  
10 Jul 2008 /  #35
isthatu2;
NO, NO, what you heard coming out of the old guys mouth, were his words, not mine. Face up to it..they were abandoned.
Cant you face the facts.. Must you always make ludicrous excuses.?
Silly old plum?? LOL! thats cute
Well anyhow... TALLY HO
OP Wroclaw Boy  
10 Jul 2008 /  #36
Face up to it..they were abandoned.

They should have fought out of it like the 101st at Bastogne.
isthatu2  4 | 2692  
10 Jul 2008 /  #37
NO, NO, what you heard coming out of the old guys mouth, were his words, not mine.

My apologies then old bean...

Face up to it..they were abandoned.

Why do I need to "face upto " anything me old china? 10,000 BRITISH troops were "abandoned" too buddy. Dont try and paint it as though us nasty Brits left the por old Poles in the lurch because we didnt like them coz they smelled of mushrooms.....
wildrover  98 | 4430  
10 Jul 2008 /  #38
were the poles even in market garden,

What a wonker...he probably thinks we are talking about a stall in the market....
Franek  8 | 271  
10 Jul 2008 /  #39
Why do I need to "face upto " anything me old china? 10,000 BRITISH troops were "abandoned" too buddy. Dont try and paint it as though us nasty Brits left the por old Poles in the lurch because we didnt like them coz they smelled of mushrooms.....

Old bean? China?? Come on dont you dare go talking funny again..
Oh yes, It was not only Polish.. But British and Americans were left behind... WHY??? They had no orders! Great
Hip Hip Horray and all of that good stuff.. OLD PLUM??? HMMM
wildrover  98 | 4430  
10 Jul 2008 /  #40
A bit off the topic , but not quite....When the first unit of S.A.S were formed to take part in the troubles in Malaya (the S.A.S were disbanded at the end of the war ) the first unit which became 22 S.A.S was formed from ex tank unit guys , ex royal artillary , parchute regiment , and suprisingly ex members of the waffen ss...My old man was among them , being an ex tank guy.....One of the para guys had been captured at Arnhem by the ss , and didn,t take kindly to having them in the jungle with him...needless to say the ss guys didn,t make it into battle...somebody,s gun went off while they were having a wash in a river....
Firestorm  6 | 399  
10 Jul 2008 /  #41
Casualties
Dutch civillians 500+[22] 500+
German 7,500-10,000[23] 7,500-10,000

British Between 9,810 - 11,448+
American 7,524/28/29/30
Polish 378/31
British/American/Polish combined losses = 17,712-19,350+
Ranj  21 | 947  
10 Jul 2008 /  #42
Operation Market Garden, what went wrong?

OK, I will admit, when I saw the title of the thread, I thought it had sth to do with gardening.....DOH! ;)
Ranj  21 | 947  
10 Jul 2008 /  #44
What can I say....I've been wanting to grow veggies, and I did mow my lawn this evening.....:)
wildrover  98 | 4430  
10 Jul 2008 /  #45
I did mow my lawn this evening.....:)

HA...you need a tractor to mow mine...and i don,t have one.....
Ranj  21 | 947  
10 Jul 2008 /  #46
Unfortunately, my front lawn is on a slope (would be too dangerous for a tractor). I will complete my back lawn tomorrow:)
joepilsudski  26 | 1387  
11 Jul 2008 /  #47
MARKET GARDEN: WHY THE SCREWUP?

Poor planning and supply, Montgomery and others not flexible enough in response to unexpected events, not taking out German harbour batteries, etc...the British tried to get too cute...but Patton was right: why not go for the gut?...there was also bad co-ordination between the US commanders & Montgomery...differing political objectives, also...Roosevelt was looking for a way to delay things, and give as much of Eastern Europe to the Communists as possible.
wildrover  98 | 4430  
11 Jul 2008 /  #48
It was just a bridge to far......the last bridge ie Arnhem was just too deep into enemy held land , and the time taken to get to the airbourne forces holding the bridge with armoured support was too long....It didn,t help matters that they happened to parachute on top of a waffen ss unit that was in the area for training and refit....Dutch spies had in fact told about this ss unit , but the information was dismissed as unreliable....
Franek  8 | 271  
11 Jul 2008 /  #49
Wildrover;
It was not a bridge too far.. A crack British unit reached the bridge and fought valiantly to hold it.. The objective was reached. .But the promised reinforcements never came..One does not fight King Tiger tanks with Enfield rifles.

Yes , there was sufficient information concerning the German strength but it was ignored..

Later on in December 16th 1944.. The Germans attacked into Belgium through the Ardennes.. The Battle of the Bulge.. Hitler named it the Watch On The Rhine.

Here too there was sufficient evidence to warn the Allies. There were reports from civilians telling of the massive German build up. American patrol noticed that the snow in germany was mashed down.. Indicating heavy traffic.

This was all ignored. By whom?? The American High Command.
You

all know the rest of the story.

Isthatu2, Do you think that you can handle this one???
wildrover  98 | 4430  
11 Jul 2008 /  #50
But the promised reinforcements never came..

They did....but it took too long...and it was all over by the time they got there.....
isthatu2  4 | 2692  
11 Jul 2008 /  #51
Right,one more point,that,as this is PF is highly relevent.
The vast majority of the Poles were not "abandoned " by anyone. The Poles,the ones who hadnt managed to join the main British force north of the rhine were on the south bank. The british Wessex division,Dorset regiment( dorset again eh Franek :) ) reached the south bank and most of the Poles got clean away,sheltered by British troops. So,for a Pole to moan about being abandoned is just that, more factless whinging,happily ignoring historical fact.

One does not fight King Tiger tanks with Enfield rifles.

There were no King Tigers in the Battle, Tigers yes but not Koinigstigers. What the Allied airborne at Arnhem did fight the german (and Dutch nazi) armour with was ; PIATs, 6 pounder (thats 57mm for the Yanks) anti tank guns and also a smattering of 17 pounders.

Lets also look at the reasons why the germans were able to counter almost all allied moves,including being in the right(wrong) place for the follow up drops. Yep,sorry to say,an American officer in bOY Brownings HQ staff made the ultimate mistake of taking the full plans of Op Market Garden,times,units,orders etc, into battle with him. This was contrary to all orders,when his glider was shot out of the skies these plans fell into german hands with the obvious results.

This was all ignored. By whom?? The American High Command

Thats about the crux of it isnt it Franek,the lads on the ground,British,American,Poles,fought like tigers only to be let down by their high commands.
Franek  8 | 271  
11 Jul 2008 /  #52
Thats about the crux of it isnt it Franek,the lads on the ground,British,American,Poles,fought like tigers only to be let down by their high commands.

Touche. My point exactly.

Do you want to play some more??

There is more.. I would love to get your DUPA into the Bulge...
Final crossing of the Rhine at Remagan.
The Polish troops finest hour in the RED POPPIES of Monte Cassino.. Breaking through the Gustav Line..

Come on.. Dont be such a wimp.. You are with the big boys now. Show me a little spunk..

OLD PLUM!..GEEEZE. That hurt.
isthatu2  4 | 2692  
11 Jul 2008 /  #53
There is more.. I would love to get your DUPA into the Bulge...

What,about the fact that it was Brit and Canadian armour that seeled the northern secxtion,thus saving a whole heap of American lives?
(though maybe not "winning " the battle for you as Monty rather arogently claimed)

Final crossing of the Rhine at Remagan.

Er, not to disrespect you here but,Final,really? More like a completly unplanned fluke. How about op comet the REAL crossing of the rhine?

The Polish troops finest hour in the RED POPPIES of Monte Cassino..

A fine hour,but,lets not forget the fact that Brits and Yanks had died while getting rid of all but a handfull of german defenders...

Breaking through the Gustav Line..

Wasnt that the French North Africans???

Show me a little spunk..

Im guessing this has a different meaning where you come from :)
wildrover  98 | 4430  
11 Jul 2008 /  #54
I would love to get your DUPA into the Bulge...

Ooh err missus....i am shocked....
isthatu2  4 | 2692  
11 Jul 2008 /  #55
Its requesting I show him my spunk that has me a little worried though wildrover :)
Franek  8 | 271  
11 Jul 2008 /  #56
NAH! I am not into stuff like that..Nor am I into throwing poor little people around..Give the little guys a break.

AHA! So you are familiar with old Pansie Monty's claim,that he saved the American Army.. He sure backed of in a hurry,when told that he would be replaced by General Alexander.. ( A GREAT MAN) Good Soldier..

AN OLD PLUM? Darn that smarts
isthatu2  4 | 2692  
11 Jul 2008 /  #57
Sio you are familiar with old Pansie Monty's claim,that he saved the American Army..

Yes, point of fact,IMO Monty was a bit of a fool.BTW, Pansy is being nice if you believe the rumours.......

General Alexander.. ( A GREAT MAN) Good Soldier..

Yep,no arguments.

AN OLD PLUM? Darn that smarts

It shouldnt do ,its a term of endearment :)
wildrover  98 | 4430  
11 Jul 2008 /  #58
I show him my spunk

Another example of the language difference...showing spunk...means showing spirit in the USA....
isthatu2  4 | 2692  
11 Jul 2008 /  #59
Where as over here it means what Monty did to young lads :)
Franek  8 | 271  
11 Jul 2008 /  #60
term of endearment :)

Hot Dawg! Does that mean that you love me?? But lets not get too cute..

See the two of us can agree to disagree.
Good Show.
Shall wwe continue. Just a little bit of The poles at Monte Cassino.
Czy widzisz te gruzy na szczycie?
Tam wróg twój się kryje jak szczur!
Musicie, musicie, musicie!
Za kark wziąć i strącić go z chmur!
I poszli szaleni, zażarci,
I poszli zabijać i mścić,
I poszli jak zawsze uparci,
Jak zawsze za honor się bić.

If you cant read Polish.. I will be glad to translate it for you

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