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Operation Market Garden, what went wrong?


Wroclaw Boy  
10 Jul 2008 /  #1
Debate.
SeanBM 35 | 5,808  
10 Jul 2008 /  #2
The British 1st Airborne Division did not secure the bridge at Arnhem, and although they managed to hold out near the bridge far longer than planned, the British XXX Corps failed to relieve them?

I don't know I got this from en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Market_Garden
szkotja2007 27 | 1,499  
10 Jul 2008 /  #3
Bit of background.

Through large-scale use of airborne forces, its tactical objectives were to secure a series of bridges over the main rivers of the German-occupied Netherlands to allow rapid advance by armored units.

The operation was initially successful with the capture of the Waal bridge at Nijmegen on September 20. But it was a failure overall since the planned Allied advance across the Rhine at Arnhem had to be abandoned.


en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Market_Garden
OP Wroclaw Boy  
10 Jul 2008 /  #4
The Germans were considered by many to be a spent force, allocating huge resources to the Eastern campaign. The Allies ran into huge surprises in the form of elite combat units with heavy weaponary including powerful mechanised forces when trying to take and hold their objectives.
SeanBM 35 | 5,808  
10 Jul 2008 /  #5
Ok, It's gonna be difficult playing the devils advocate on this one.

Operation Market Garden didn't go wrong, it was a success because Hitler lost the war.
OP Wroclaw Boy  
10 Jul 2008 /  #6
Operation Market Garden didn't go wrong, it was a success because Hitler lost the war.

True but the Yanks love to balme old Monty.

Why do people always comment on Hitler and Germany when talking WWII, dont forget we were fighting, Italy, Austria, Czechoslovakia and Romania aswell. Ohh and Japan and of course all the recruits Hitler managed to pursuade along the campaign.
Franek 8 | 271  
10 Jul 2008 /  #7
Holy S**T I posted a long post and it did not show up.... HMMM.
Ok bear with me.. I will try again... Pssst.. Dont go away
isthatu2 4 | 2,704  
10 Jul 2008 /  #8
Too many objectives,not enough resources. Patton wanted all the fuel for his own personal glory crusade...
Not enough transport planes,if more troops had been dropped on the first day things would have turned out differently.
Also,like wb said, the allies underestimated the strenght of the opposition they faced. Not to mention the fact that an SS officer traing regiment was on exercise a couple of miles from the drop zones,between them and Arnhem.
SeanBM 35 | 5,808  
10 Jul 2008 /  #9
Ah ha, So this is a trap I see.
isthatu2 4 | 2,704  
10 Jul 2008 /  #10
It kinda started that way in another thread :) Franek challenged me to "read up about Market Garden" I failed to tell him that Ive worked with the Arnhem veterens associations since my early teens,have visited Arnhem on numerous occasions,taken part in the memorials there,had a couple of relatives in the battle,and ,frankly,am a bit of a nerd/egg head when it comes to this particular subject :)
Franek 8 | 271  
10 Jul 2008 /  #11
Oh Damn.. I did it again.. Now I FEEl stupid.. Hang loose im Coming
Barney 14 | 1,472  
10 Jul 2008 /  #12
The problem was one of manoeuvring for post war positioning. The British had always wanted to strike into the heart of Germany because of the rapid advance they had made after the breakout. Eisenhower had stopped the advance for obvious reasons (fuel supply etc). The British felt undermined by this and continued to argue for a quick crossing of the Rhine. Eisenhower allowed them to attempt it. He may have been supreme commander of the allies in the west but he was an American. The prize was the industrial heartland of Germany. Americans then as now tend to see the bigger picture and knew that the soviet forces were at that time unbeatable. America was preparing for a post war world. The Soviet Union won the war but the Americans won much more. The actual details of the battle are not that important. There is much more to be said here but as usual political intrigue lies at the heart of the debate

The film was too long and Ryan O'Neil was miscast
isthatu2 4 | 2,704  
10 Jul 2008 /  #13
Hang loose im Coming

Dont worry franek,we europeans are used to you guys being late for the party ....:)

The film was too long and Ryan O'Neil was miscast

er,the film was too SHORT....and,re ryan o neil, he was a bit old but the worst thing was that bloody awfull post war french helmet he wore....
wildrover 98 | 4,451  
10 Jul 2008 /  #14
Not forgetting the Polish airbourne forces whose second drop was delayed by bad weather...which meant the Gernmans were waiting for them...fully prepared...they dropped into an ambush...
OP Wroclaw Boy  
10 Jul 2008 /  #15
Today Franek.
isthatu2 4 | 2,704  
10 Jul 2008 /  #16
Give him a couple of years ;)

Heres the bigman



Franek 8 | 271  
10 Jul 2008 /  #17
You guys are getting ahead of ourselves.. Back off for a minute..

WHY OPERATION MARKET?

The war was really going good for the Allies.. The Germans were on the run.
Monty dreamed up a plan to end the war by Xmas. He was just promoted to field Marshall. He demanded the whole northern Army to be put under his control.. He wanted to advance across Holland, crossing the Rhine.

Sheaf disagreed.. They though that it was better to attack on two fronts.. Monty up north and the other into the Industrial Rhur valley..
Monty insisted.. To keep peace amongst the Allies SHEAF consented to his request..

OK now I have my S*** together.. Lets go for it..
isthatu2 4 | 2,704  
10 Jul 2008 /  #18
WHY OPERATION MARKET?

Market,the airborne wing, Garden,the ground forces...

He demanded the whole northern Army to be put under his control..

Er,it already was,he had only just relinqueshed control of ALL ground forces in western europe.

Sheaf disagreed.. They though that it was better to attack on two fronts..

SHEAF wanted a "broad front " strategy,ie,couldnt make its mind up where to strike.

Monty insisted.. To keep peace amongst the Allies SHEAF consented to his request..

Yes,and if Patton hadnt stolen huge amounts of supplies there would have been a good chance of succes.
Franek 8 | 271  
10 Jul 2008 /  #19
This was to be the largest Airborne operation in history.. The plan was to drop three full airborne divisions behind German lines and to be reinforced by the British Armored cops.

The 101`st Polish Parachute brigade, The 101st, the 82nd, and the british1st airbore ,suceeded in their mission.
OP Wroclaw Boy  
10 Jul 2008 /  #20
We hadn't comandered enough german weapons to finish the job.
isthatu2 4 | 2,704  
10 Jul 2008 /  #21
Yep Franek,I see your falling back on the old "lets blame Horraks and XXX corp". Lets see what the Armour was up against shall we? Traveling up a single lane raised highway,facing entrenched german 88s. The road was on avarge a few meters above the level of the surrounding country side,which,incidently was swampy marsh land.

Sorry,dont judge a battle by a HOLLYWOOD movie...in A Bridge Too Far we see the gallant Yanks (and,dont get me wrong the 505 boys were heros) take the Nijmagen bridge all by themselves,when,point of fact,the first to cross the bridge were GDs Armd shermans...
Franek 8 | 271  
10 Jul 2008 /  #22
They were met by German crack divisions regrouping. It was no trap..It was bad intelligence.. The bridge at nijmagan was attacked by the British.. With just a little bit of help, they could have taken the bridge.. They fought and died like real heroes.. But no reinforcements.. British and Poles and Americans reached their goals... But No reinforcements.. WHY??

The British Armor had no orders to advance.. JESUS CHRIST.. It was Caen all over again
szkotja2007 27 | 1,499  
10 Jul 2008 /  #23
Off topic but since we are talking about Airbourne things in the war..............

Off topic...my grandad can tell the difference between a Rollys Royce and a BMW from a distance of 25,000ft.

The Rolls ( Lancaster ) had a constant drone whereas the BMW ( Heinkel ) had a rhythmic drone.
If it was a constant drone, he knew he would be OK to stay sleeping on the bottom bunk in the shelter.
If it was a Heinkel, he would move on to the floor because my Aunty was guaranteed to pee herself when the bombs dropped.

First account history - you just can't beat it !

OK, so back to Oosterbeek..............
ski 7 | 140  
10 Jul 2008 /  #24
interesing interviews with Polish veterans.


Franek 8 | 271  
10 Jul 2008 /  #25
Here we are with a foot hold in Germany..And they blew it..What about those poor soals that fought so hard at Nijmagan.. Why were they abonded..They were gallant British Soldies who fough bravely.. Only to be abonded by their own..

YEAH CHEERS! AND BALLY HO or what ever
OP Wroclaw Boy  
10 Jul 2008 /  #26
It was Caen all over again

Thats another one the Yanks love OK the Brits didn't take Caen in the so called allocated time frame but dont forget we were facing the best Germany had to offer, crack Panzer units, Waffen SS troops etc. etc.. Caen was the key and the Axes made sure it was defended by Germany's finest. Patton had a breeze down there in the South.
isthatu2 4 | 2,704  
10 Jul 2008 /  #27
OK, so back to Oosterbeek..............

Okay then,heres a couple of photos I took there a while back.The lady is the daughter of Kate Ter Host the old gentleman is her(kates) husband,Dr Ter Host,since sadly passed away.



noimmigration  
10 Jul 2008 /  #28
interesing interviews with Polish veterans.

were the poles even in market garden, ? did they have a shotgun between three of them
szkotja2007 27 | 1,499  
10 Jul 2008 /  #29
did they have a shotgun between three of them

Ha ha thats funny because....... like........ ha ha because.........

..................................why don't you play the clip four posts prior to your own.
isthatu2 4 | 2,704  
10 Jul 2008 /  #30
did they have a shotgun between three of

after swimming the lower rhine to come to the aid of the british at Oosterbeek,probably not....

( i know we shouldnt feed the troll,but can I just say,FCUK OFF BACK TO YOUR HOLE TURD BREATH!!!)

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