[quote=MatyjaszI assumed the story of the 'Miracle on the Vistula' was common knowledge to Poles?[/quote]en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Warsaw_(1920)
I have never seen the term 'Miracle on the Vistula' described as a belittling of Pilsudski. My main knowledge of the term comes from my grandfather (via my dad) and he was proud of it, having fought in there.
Norman Davis book 'White Eagle - Red Star' called it such, again not in a derogatory manner.
Yup...trying to combine forces and put one over on Russia...they will never forget....but you are asked to ignore/forget about their atrocities???!
No its not backing the wrong side...you were largely right....but you lost your gamble..all bets are then off.....!
You forget that at many times during history, Poland also invaded etc her neighbours....had expansionist phases....these indiscretions came back to haunt you.
Katyn had nothing to do with whether Poland was allied with Napoleon or not. Stalin was a paranoid madman he even killed his own officers cos he feared them to betray him. So it is not suprising if he killed a lot of officers of a "capitalist" country.
That Maxxx is a matter for conjecture..........who knows went went through the mind of a serial genocidist...they think of and dream up any and all reasons....just a suggestion.......it all added to the "rationale" applied to the process...or lack of it!
This is right. Communism had little to do that it was first taken into practice in Russia. And Katyn had nothing to do with some 19th century campaign and Stalin did it because he wanted a weak Poland. This is exempliefied also in the Warsaw Uprising in which Stalin provided no help.
Soviet Union was ideological constuct, not a national construct as countries usually are.
Quoting: Maxxx Payne And Katyn had nothing to do with some 19th century campaign
Perhaps not...but countries collective memories........are rather long.....
Countries yes. But Soviet Union is not the same thing as Russia. And why would a Georgian (Stalin) feel bitter about something that happened to Russians ?
Perhaps not...but countries collective memories........are rather long.....
Frank, If you didn't notice in 1795-1918 Poland was occupied by Russia, Austria-Hungary and Prussia/Germany, Poles had full rights to fight against these states.
Why forgive? Just honor the memory of the brave that died there that day. Don't move on from things like these. Would you honestly want someone to move on if you were killed with thousands of others??? No way! Honor their memory, pray for them, and make sure you pass this tradition on to your children :)
(I only used your post because I'm lazy and didn't want to find his post) :)
Just interested to know in Your opinion on them e.g. agree or not. I'm open for discussion esp desertion of Smygly-Rydz, Berling(a candidate for Katyn?), CIC Sikorski(there's a few candidates for his death.)
Anielka.
[b]Update[b]
1943 German report gave 4,143 as the number actually exhumed from the 7 graves. The 8th grave was only opened not exhumed. It was quite a lot smaller than the other 7 and found some distance away from the other 7. Est. of numbers for this grave vary from about 200 up.
The highest number for the graves at the time was usually thought by people other than the Soviets and Nazis to be 4,800. "Death in the Forest"by JK Zawody, pg 94-5, gives some reasoning for these figures.
A 1956 memo from KGB chief Alexander Shelepin to 1st Secretary Nikita Kruschev confirmed 21,257 of these killings at the following sites;
Katyn- 4,421. Starobielsk camp- 3,820. Ostashkov camp- 6,311. other places of detention- 7,305.
This is generally accepted now as being genuine and a good estimate of the number of dead at the 3 main sites. The Kharkov and the Mednoje Poles are mainly in the known graves, but there are many missing from the graves so far exhumed at Mednoje and there is nothing much known about where the dead of Katyn are buried now- excluding those in the Cemetery.
Thanks for this post A. Reading it makes me sick to the stomach - the whole WW2 experience, especially for Poles, is ghastly - I lost family members to the Germans and one at Katyn and everytime someone brings it up, I feel the need to DO something.. but what can one DO that would make a difference?
The Poles lost their opportunity at August 1944 with the Warsaw revolution.If they managed to throw Germans out,they would maybe join the western world.It was still an open issue til Jalta conference in 1945 where Poland should belong.However Poles heavily depended on soviet interventinon,they waited til the soviets were too close so the german forces would have weakened out and started to retreat,to liberate Warsaw.
When the germans gathered a lot of forces and begann extinguishing revolution,the Poles asked for soviet help which the Russians of course refused.Both Hitler and Stalin knew what was played in Warsaw and had taken their decisions(to press the West).
Katyn was dicovered accidentally be Germans and Goebels organized a well orchestrated campaign for its exploitence.He gathered specialists from all over the world to analyze the findings and testify the identity of corpses.Germans hoped to bring Soviets into a difficult position and cause conflicts between the allies which may drive them to breakdown of their relations and maybe an end of the war in the west.
Soviets understood all this and simply forbid the english and americans any reference to Katyn threatening to stop pressure and let the germans gather forces on the western front where english and americans were under heavy pressure.Allies complied and accepted the official soviet explanation that the polish officers in Katyn were murdered by Germans.
When Krutsev begann accusing Stalin atrocities after the 20th congress of the communist party,Katyn came to surface again.In this case as in many of Stalin's murders there are few remnants and the calculations of victims are always open to upper limits.
I think most russians still regard Katyn a crime commited by germans.
Why did the Soviets proceed to this mass execution?It had to do with SU defense plans in view of an imminent german attack.The same reason why soviets occupied baltic states and attacked Finland in 1939.They wanted a good balance of forces,a way to delay german attacks.They feared that in case germans invaded Soviet Union the righteous officers of the polish army would join them and be very influencial in provinces like Belarus,who knows?Or they wanted to smooth the ground for a future communist Poland with no army resistance possible?We will never know the archives,what were the motives and the goals of the soviet officers who decided the massacre
its important that we keep the anger and hatred of past wrongs firmly rooted in the present... that way we can pass it onto our kids who can carry it forward into the future... never forgiving, never forgetting and never letting go...
While i argee we should never forget, that we learn from the past. not to forgive goes against not just religious grounds but civil. Ie once the time has been served for the crime.
indoctrination of hatred into children is wrong. and can lead to a katyn in reverse for revenge etc fuelling more hatred and the cycle never ends...
Anielka and other people really caring about the subject, the Katyn genocide shall not be forgotten by the Polish people. Nor shall be forgotten the - perhaps even worse - monstrous genocide by 'Ukrainian' bandits associated with the Germans of some 500.000 Poles - including a large number of small children - in the Eastern Borderlands in the 1940's.
And any crypto-Nazi type can babble hypocritically about our alleged 'hatred' as much as he please. :)
ous genocide by 'Ukrainian' bandits associated with the Germans of some 500.000 Poles - including a large number of small children - in the Eastern Borderlands in the 1940's
They are called Banderas.They are national heroes now in West Ukraine.
