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64th anniversary of the Warsaw Uprising


1jola 14 | 1,879  
18 Dec 2009 /  #61
Polish KGB branch, Borrka? LOL

You can take a look at the makup of Nazi forces here:

pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Powstanie_warszawskie#Oddzia.C5.82y_wojska

While it is true that Polish forces and civilians lumped all the easternchołota as Vlasovs or Ukis, there were plenty of Ukis doing the murdering of civilians.

Diachenko's unit didn't participate in the slaughter though.
Borrka 37 | 594  
18 Dec 2009 /  #62
here were plenty of Ukis doing the murdering of civilians.

We have to be careful with statements like this.

Even your Wiki-link clearly says the only fully Ukrainian unit was Wolhynia Legion which was not involved in any of main slaughters in Warsaw.

Soviet POWs with Ukrainian roots in (Russian) RONA by no means represented any Ukrainian political orientation - they were just Soviet collaborators.

It's true about the bad reputation of all Eastern auxiliary troops in general but just in case of Ukrainians a lot of manipulation has been done by UB which was nothing more than a KGB (NKWD) branch office in Warsaw lol.

In my opinion, even respected Polish historians had to mention the Ukrainian part in Uprising pacification in order to satisfy the commie censorship.
Nathan 18 | 1,363  
18 Dec 2009 /  #63
there were plenty of Ukis doing the murdering of civilians.

This is what you said. The source that you gave mentions the following:

Analogicznie, wbrew rozpowszechnianym opiniom, w tłumieniu Powstania nie brały udziału jednostki złożonej z Ukraińców 14 Dywizji Grenadierów SS, zaś jedyna składająca się z Ukraińców zwarta jednostka uczestnicząca w walkach - Ukraiński Legion Samoobrony nie uczestniczył ani w rzezi Woli i rzezi Ochoty, ani w innych masakrach polskiej ludności cywilnej w czasie Powstania.

Would you present any source that will support your words? If not, I demand apology.
"There were plenty Ukies..." - show it! I don't see the numbers?!
Regarding the photo. Ukrainian Cossacks didn't form any military formations in WWll. There were Donski Cossacks, as your source mentions, but never is stated that Ukrainian Cossacks took part in any of the suppressions.

Again you mentioned:
Bronislav (also spelled "Bronislaw") Kaminski was born in Vitebsk, Russian Empire, to a Polish father and German mother.
This formation soon grew to 10,000 men and was called by them the Russian National Liberation Army (abbreviated in Russian as "RONA").
Sounds like your guy opperating Russian army in 1944.
Borrka 37 | 594  
19 Dec 2009 /  #64
Sounds like your guy opperating Russian army in 1944.

Let us put some facts straight.
The only link to Kaminski's "Polish" roots are his names.
No other sources confirming his Polish origin and historians are even not sure about his place of birth. .
I know personally Russians using Polish names what does not make them even a bit Polish.
Same goes for his ( allegedly) "German" mother.

So for me Kaminski was a standard product of the Soviet brainwashing who turned from red to nazi - brown after being arrested and sentenced in the Soviet Union.

His openly declared objective was to became a Nazi - leader of Russia.
His hatred towards Poles - second to none (von dem Bach Zelewski's opinion)
Nathan 18 | 1,363  
19 Dec 2009 /  #65
Borrka, I have never heard of this guy before, but I am glad 1jola mentioned him. From Wikipedia and your post "Bronislaw Kaminski" I read the following:

Brigadier Bronislaw Kaminski is probably one of the few "Poles" respected by at least some Russians. Born in Witebsk son of aPolish father and a German mother became a kind of anti-Soviet hero for many Russian "white" emigres.

It is a bit like the infamous Copernicus case ;) Father links him to Poland, mother - to Germany, place of birth - to Bielarus', education - to Russia.

I don't really care whether he was of Polish nationality or not. He was a low-level scum. Mentioning him, I didn't say that the Poles are murderers, like some "historians" here try to generalize things. At any time in any nation or state you will find at least 1% deviants, inhumane creatures, sociopaths, psycopaths who will torture, rape and murder anyone or anything just for the heck of it.

It is estimated that approximately one percent of the general population are psychopaths.[13][14]

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychopathy#Psychopathy_vs._sociopathy

If we take an average city of around 800,000 inhabitants, e.g. Gdansk (Trójmiasto) in Poland or L'viv in Ukraine, we might be shocked to realize that 1% is 8,000 people, who are psychopaths! Maybe, it sounds off the topic, but it is of great value to know and understand.

The problem is when people try to pick these outcasts and describe the whole nation - that's what is troublesome.
I really appreciate you being objective and supporting your words with facts, which 1jola seems no intention to do.
Bratwurst Boy 12 | 11,676  
19 Dec 2009 /  #66
Here some more info:

feldgrau.com/kaminski.html
axishistory.com/index.php?id=308
Borrka 37 | 594  
19 Dec 2009 /  #67
Rather mysterious person this Kaminski.
Already the first search brings three different places of birth - Petersburg, Witebsk area and ... Poznan, two first names Bronislaw and Mieczyslaw, not to mention unknown circumstances of his death.
porzeczka - | 102  
21 Dec 2009 /  #68
It seems that Kaminski was less Polish than en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeremi_Wi%C5%9Bniowiecki Jeremi Wisniowiecki was Ukrainian :)

compare to your Jew-loving nation?

You deserve some eye-opening material for these words.

The UPA started drafting doctors, shoemakers, tailors, and others specialist of Jewish nationality. Expediency however proved fragile, and when circumstances changed it gave away to ideology and deep-seated resentments. As soviets troops continued to advance into Ukraine and the armed struggle appeared beyond hope, these Jewish doctors were executed by the UPA.

Through 1943 nationalists guerrillas, wherever they gained control, continued to hunt down Jews who survived Nazi extermination. In neighboring Rivne, according to a captured activist, the Bandera troops literally haunted for Jews, organizing round ups and combing the forest paths, ravines etc.

At any time in any nation or state you will find at least 1% deviants, inhumane creatures, sociopaths, psycopaths who will torture, rape and murder anyone or anything just for the heck of it.

Consider partisans/soldiers committing genocide - a demoralized by the war/brainwashed by ideology bunch who were simply following orders, and by the way vented their hate and human frustration on innocent civilians. It's well known that people are able to turn into beasts under certain conditions. It does not have to be connected with psychopathy.

Mentioning him, I didn't say that the Poles are murderers, like some "historians" here try to generalize things.

As far as I remember, according to you, Poles always have to take collective responsibility and pay for alleged, even hundreds years old crimes, contrary to 'morally superior' Ukrainians.
1jola 14 | 1,879  
21 Dec 2009 /  #69
porzeczka

Our friend Nathan knows we are his friends; he strugles with the idea, but he can be counted on.
Nathan 18 | 1,363  
22 Dec 2009 /  #70
Something I re-post again for you, Porzeczka, if you missed it.

Through 1943 nationalists guerrillas, wherever they gained control, continued to hunt down Jews who survived Nazi extermination. In neighboring Rivne, according to a captured activist, the Bandera troops literally haunted for Jews, organizing round ups and combing the forest paths, ravines etc.

Following your source, I found out that this statement was taken from the INTERROGATION of Vladimir Solov'ev. Why and by whom this man was interrogated, who is he I couldn't find anywhere. The only thing I can add is the fact that in the Soviet Union there were many "interrogations" like that and people signed whatever broken ribs and beaten-off kidneys could have made you to sign. Was he a historian? Where and by whom was conducted this interrogation? Where I can read more about the life of this man, Porzeczka?

How did it happen that some Jewish people who fought for Ukrainian independance (of course, they were born in Ukraine and were Ukrainians) got ones of the heighest medals of UPA, like Dr. Abraham Kum - Golden Cross of Merit (most of ethnic Ukrainians got a medal only post-humously)? Why has OUN forged passports for Jewish? Why they saved their fighter Stella Krenzbach from torture and death in the Soviet prison? I tell you why. Because UPA had nothing to do with so-called round-ups and hunting for Jews (do you really believe that UPA had nothing better to do, fighting Nazi Germans, Russian NKVD far superior in numbers and attacked instead doctors and innocent kids, old grandpas and pregnant women like some like to put it?). I wouldn't deny killings of collaborators among which were Jews, Ukrainians, Polish and so on. You work with the enemy - you are an enemy. Do you disagree?

As far as I remember, according to you, Poles always have to take collective responsibility and pay for alleged, even hundreds years old crimes, contrary to 'morally superior' Ukrainians.

Payments and responsibility goes for you just to shut you up, because you always feel innocent like a virgin lily in a swamp. I just show you that you are as dirty as everybody else, take you down from the fluffy clouds and put with the face where we all belong :)

And never in my life I said that my nation is superior to any other nation, moreover in morality. If you say that, please, quote me - I am eager to see that.

Regarding psychopathy - does it matter whether you are genetically psycopathic (if gene of psychopathy happens to exist) or you are a psychopath due to the environmental factors? Killing a human being on a regular basis causes psychopathic damage to your conscienceness even if it wasn't there before.
porzeczka - | 102  
28 Dec 2009 /  #71
I just show you that you are as dirty as everybody else, take you down from the fluffy clouds and put with the face where we all belong :)

...take us down from the fluffy clouds but only to make more space there for Ukrainians :) If you really see yourself as 'dirty 'as everybody else are, why are you so afraid of this Ukrainian 'dirt'? There would be no need to talk about UPA crimes if you didn't try to cover them up.

I wouldn't deny killings of collaborators among which were Jews, Ukrainians, Polish and so on. You work with the enemy - you are an enemy. Do you disagree?

Being a Pole in Volhynia was equal to being a collaborator?

do you really believe that UPA had nothing better to do, fighting Nazi Germans, Russian NKVD far superior in numbers and attacked instead doctors and innocent kids, old grandpas and pregnant women like some like to put it?).

It seems that Banderists found ethnic cleansing of Poles to be military justified and not interfering with the rest of their activity, whatever it was. Killing innocent kids, old grandpas and pregnant women was much easier task than waging open war on Nazis. 60 thousand murdered Polish civilians against 3 thousand killed Nazis – UPA's military efficiency in 1943.

Regarding psychopathy - does it matter whether you are genetically psycopathic (if gene of psychopathy happens to exist) or you are a psychopath due to the environmental factors? Killing a human being on a regular basis causes psychopathic damage to your conscienceness even if it wasn't there before.

But isn't psychopathy primary determined by biological (inherent) factors? Environmental ones seem to be of secondary importance and won't play its role without presence of appropriate biological/neurological base.

Where I can read more about the life of this man, Porzeczka?

I couldn't find anything more about Vladimir Solov'ev - a Bandera activist.

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