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64th anniversary of the Warsaw Uprising


Harry  
21 Aug 2009 /  #31
Harry instead of condescending to me why not do some research of your own? Why not read some of the fascinating information available with just a few taps at your keyboard and mouse clicks and see for yourself.

I already have, my dear. I'm well aware of the position taken by the likes of Einstein and agree with it in full. He described himself as "one of the Jewish people" but said that he was not a Jew.

You so badly need to realise you know about a quarter of what you think you do. You're just embarassing yourself with statements such as "the death camps were in Poland because that is where most of the resistence was".
PlasticPole 7 | 2,649  
21 Aug 2009 /  #32
Harry your position is Poland didn't resist? They just let themselves be taken over by the Nazis? They were collaborators just like the ones on the long list provided by a faithful PFer in another thread?

History disagrees with you, Harry. History disagrees.
1jola 14 | 1,879  
21 Aug 2009 /  #33
You're just embarassing yourself with statements such as "the death camps were in Poland because that is where most of the resistence was".

Why is that ridiculous?

The camp was initially used for interning Polish intellectuals and resistance movement members

wiki entry on Auschwitz
Harry  
21 Aug 2009 /  #34
Harry your position is Poland didn't resist? They just let themselves be taken over by the Nazis? They were collaborators just like the ones on the long list provided by a faithful PFer in another thread?

No, that is not my position. As I stated earlier this afternoon "You will note that I have never claimed that Poland was nation of Nazi collaborators. I have always said that some Poles actively opposed the Nazis and some Poles actively supported them. Those are simple historical facts."

History disagrees with you, Harry. History disagrees.

What do you know about history? Apparently very very little.
1jola 14 | 1,879  
21 Aug 2009 /  #35
I have always said that some Poles actively opposed the Nazis and some Poles actively supported them.

What a wishy washy position. Not exactly false yet not truthful either.
Harry  
21 Aug 2009 /  #36
It is the very exact truth. Some Poles fought with the Nazi and some fought against them. On that there can only be agreement. However we're certain to disagree on the numbers of Poles who fought for and against.
PlasticPole 7 | 2,649  
21 Aug 2009 /  #37
Some Poles fought with the Nazi and some fought against them.

Maybe the ones who fought with them were not really Poles but traitors to the Polish nation since officially, the Nazis were declared enemies. They were traitors, Harry.
southern 75 | 7,096  
21 Aug 2009 /  #38
Some Poles fought with the Nazi and some fought against them

Warsaw uprising was made by Harry's grandfather.
Harry  
21 Aug 2009 /  #39
traitors to the Polish nation since officially, the Nazis were declared enemies. They were traitors, Harry.

That is exactly right. And the thing which made them traitors was that they were Poles. They couldn't be traitors if they weren't Poles!

Warsaw uprising was made by Harry's grandfather.

Actually no. But my mother's father was involved in the airlift efforts from Italy to the Uprising.
1jola 14 | 1,879  
21 Aug 2009 /  #40
However we're certain to disagree on the numbers of Poles who fought for and against.

I would like to see your numbers and the conclusion you draw from those numbers beyond simplistic 'some things are good ; some things are bad in life'. So far, I recognize yours as a Forrest Gump position.
Harry  
21 Aug 2009 /  #41
I'd rather that than stare at a grey piece of paper and insist pointblank that it is white (which is basically what a lot of Poles do when talking about the war).

As for numbers: there are the 7,500 Poles which the Israeli War Crimes Commission state were involved in anti-semitic activity during the war, a number which I doubt you disagree with seeing as you have posted references to it more than once and a number which compares unfavourably with the number of Ukrainians doing the same; then there is the number of Poles who were in the 1st or 2nd Polish Corps, 89,131 according to Warsaw's military attaché in London, Colonel Kuropieska (the only Pole to attend the London victory parade of 1946); we also have the number of Poles who signed the Volksliste IV, people you yourself described as "considered traitors and collaborators" and there were 83,000 of them; and we mustn't forget the Jewish police, if you've got accurate numbers for them, I'd love to see some, there must have been at least a few thousand Judendienstordnung given that Warsaw alone had 2,500.

Then there are the organisations which are more difficult to judge: the Blue Police and the Judenrats. Some Blue Police were certainly undercover AK, some had joined at gunpoint and disobeyed orders (Wacław Nowiński and others being recognised as righteous among nations) but others were vicious sadists bastards. Some Judenrat member were acting in the way that they thought would be best for their people (the one in Lodz springs to mind) but others were ruthless bastards who would stop at nothing to further their own ends.

As to conclusions, saying that all Poles were anti-semitic Nazi collaborators is as inaccurate, offensive and uselss as saying that no Poles were anti-semitic Nazi collaborators.
1jola 14 | 1,879  
21 Aug 2009 /  #42
All in all the numbers are small for a nation of 30,000,000. These numbers, along with the fact that there was no official collaboration, unlike in other European countries, makes Poland a non-collaborationist nation. But, you already knew that.

the number of Poles who signed the Volksliste IV, people you yourself described as "considered traitors and collaborators" and there were 83,000 of them

I'll call you on that statistic. Whereb did you get that?

Also, I do have some numbers for Jewish collaborators of which the number of Gestapo agents is large. It was difficult to eliminate them, but by far they were the greatest threat to fellow Jews. I'll look for it another time.

I wouldn't agree about Rumkowski in £ódż though. He was despised and his infamous 'Give up your children speach' will not be made into any Hollywood movies.
Harry  
21 Aug 2009 /  #43
All in all the numbers are small for a nation of 30,000,000.

The number that you have linked to more than once (the 7,500 Poles which the Israeli War Crimes Commission state were involved in anti-semitic activity during the war) is relatively larger than the number of Ukrainians.

These numbers, along with the fact that there was no official collaboration, unlike in other European countries, makes Poland a non-collaborationist nation. But, you already knew that.

Poland could not officially collaborate: Poland did not exist. But, you already knew that. I made no comment about whether Poland was a collaborationist nation. But, you already knew that. Those numbers show that there was far more collaboration with the Nazis than many Poles are comfortable discussing. But, you already knew that.

Also, I do have some numbers for Jewish collaborators of which the number of Gestapo agents is large. It was difficult to eliminate them, but by far they were the greatest threat to fellow Jews. I'll look for it another time.

Please do. I'd love to know how many of those bastards there were.

I'll call you on that statistic. Whereb did you get that?

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volksliste which appears to get it from: Wilhelm Deist, Bernhard R Kroener, Germany (Federal Republic). Militärgeschichtliches Forschungsamt, Germany and the Second World War, Oxford University Press, 2003, pp.132,133, ISBN 0198208731, citing Broszat, Nationalsozialistische Polenpolitik, p.134
1jola 14 | 1,879  
21 Aug 2009 /  #44
Come on, Ukis were no friends of Jews. Plenty of them in the Waffen SS.

Now, 7,500 Poles guilty of "anti-semitic activity." Not significant over 6 years of war, is it?

I wonder if killing a Jewish collaborator was an anti-semitic activity? You can get called an anti-semite for not opening a door for a Jew.
Harry  
21 Aug 2009 /  #45
You'd need to discuss the figures with the Israeli War Crimes Commission. You were quite happy to accept the figures until the number regarding the Ukrainians was revealed.
1jola 14 | 1,879  
21 Aug 2009 /  #46
I don't care about the Ukranians. Out of the tens of thousands of SS and camp guards only 7,000 were Ukranians were committing anti-semitic activity? Lame stats.

I'm not surprised with the 7,500 Poles. Very low.
Harry  
21 Aug 2009 /  #47
Lame stats.

Funny how you are so willing to use them when they make Poles look good.
1jola 14 | 1,879  
21 Aug 2009 /  #48
My opinion is supported by everything I've read and heard from eyewitnesses.
caprice49 4 | 224  
17 Dec 2009 /  #49
Colonel Kuropieska (the only Pole to attend the London victory parade of 1946)

Well it wasn't a victory for the Poles!!
Harry  
17 Dec 2009 /  #50
So why did they choose to attend the 1945 victory parade?
1jola 14 | 1,879  
17 Dec 2009 /  #51
Harry

For the same reason that Jews chose to work for the Nazis during WWII. They did work diligently till 1942, didn't they?
Borrka 37 | 594  
17 Dec 2009 /  #52
Again some masterpiece from Harry - how to redirect the Warsaw Uprisinig thread to the Polish "collaboration".
1jola 14 | 1,879  
17 Dec 2009 /  #53
Borrka

Which will soon evolve into Bereza Kartuska thread. LOL
Harry  
17 Dec 2009 /  #54
For the same reason that Jews chose to work for the Nazis during WWII. They did work diligently till 1942, didn't they?

Some of them worked right up until 1945. Although I doubt they would have been invited to any Nazi victory parades (not as Jews anyway).

Were there more Jewish Poles who worked for the Nazis or Catholic Poles who worked for the Soviets?
Steveramsfan 2 | 306  
17 Dec 2009 /  #55
Maybe the ones who fought with them were not really Poles but traitors to the Polish nation since officially, the Nazis were declared enemies. They were traitors, Harry.

Still Polish. They are Polish traitors so Polish. Who cares if Polish fought with the Nazis? The majority fought against them.

The Warsaw rising shows how much the Poles hated the Nazis, to fight for 63 days is something to be proud of.

Schenk's story is worth reading; it dispels the idea that it was only the "Nazis."

This guy was doing his job and trying to stay alive. He did not want to kill Poles but if he did not, they would kill him. There were a lot of very decent German Soldiers doing what they had to do. It was a war, decent soldiers are victims too.
ShortHairThug - | 1,103  
17 Dec 2009 /  #56
Were there more Jewish Poles who worked for the Nazis or Catholic Poles who worked for the Soviets?

You do mean Jewish Poles who worked for the Soviets. They were invited to Moscow parade (not as Jews) of course.
Harry  
17 Dec 2009 /  #57
^ No, I'm sure I mean the Catholic Poles. Want me to start naming names?
Nathan 18 | 1,363  
18 Dec 2009 /  #58
I don't care about the Ukranians. Out of the tens of thousands of SS and camp guards only 7,000 were Ukranians were committing anti-semitic activity? Lame stats.

Come on, Ukis were no friends of Jews. Plenty of them in the Waffen SS.

Listen, if you are proud of Warsaw uprising - be and I am happy for you. But don't be a low-level catpiss, please. Lame stats? Ukies were no friends of Jews? Plenty? Will you name a number of Ukrainians in SS, which, by the way, were ingaged predominately in fights with Soviets and compare to your Jew-loving nation? There were Jews in Ukrainian Insurgent Army, who fought together for the independance both from Soviets and Germans.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukrainian_Insurgent_Army#Jewish_relations

Please, learn to defend yourself without using low-level disgracious tactics.
1jola 14 | 1,879  
18 Dec 2009 /  #59
Please, learn to defend yourself without using low-level disgracious tactics.

Will you name a number of Ukrainians in SS, which, by the way, were ingaged predominately in fights with Soviets and compare to your Jew-loving nation?

While the Germans attempted to form a Polish SS division and failed, they had no problem in recruiting Ukrainian volunteers for Waffen SS, death camp guards, and auxillary police units helping Einsatzgruppen to do mass executions. The presence on Ukis is noted in Warsaw Ghetto Uprising of 1943 destruction of the ghetto and in the Warsaw Uprising of 1944, which this thread is about. It is not about the murderous UPA so stay on topic.

The barbarity of Ukrainians is well recorded during the Uprising and both Dirlewanger and Kaminski renegades included Ukis. In this particular battle their combat worthiness was dismal, but they are more infamous for murdering and raping non-combat civilians in Wola and Ochota districts of Warsaw. SS gruppenfuehrer Heinz Reinefarth (on the left) must have been an honorary cossak because that is not standard SS headgear:

f
Borrka 37 | 594  
18 Dec 2009 /  #60
The barbarity of Ukrainians is well recorded during the Uprising

Hardly recorded.
There was only a lot of rumors about Ukrainians .
Probably spread on purpose by the Polish KGB branch.

If we speak about Kaminski's and Dirlewanger's troops we can only assume there were some Ukrainian ex-POW's among the Soviet collaborators .
But not an Ukrainian unit.
Moreover, for Warsaw born people it was rather impossible to tell Ukrainian from Belorussian.
And Belurussians and Russians made a core of Kaminski's troops.

I repeat: the only proven fact of the Ukrainian presence in Warsaw 1944 was so called Wolhynia Legion commanded by Petro Diachenko.
This unit of 400 soldiers spent one week in Warsaw fighting in the Czerniakow part of the city and not in Wola or Ochota (well known for the infamous RONA crimes).

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