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Polish-Lithuanian paradoxis


truhlei 10 | 332  
28 Sep 2007 /  #1
We were discussing here the future certificate (Karta) of Pole. That document permits people with Polish origin study and work in Poland. For such people as I (43 years old) it is not so important but the possibility to visit historic motherland without visa is precious for all ages.

But I'd like to attract your attention to a very interesting paradoxis.
As to some ideas on that document it is for those who had even one grandfather was Polish-speaking from lands of former RP.
I have documents showing that my grandfather had both parents Roman catholic from former RP lands. They spoke Polish and their ancestors are known until 17 century. I have information about the ancestry because there were documents collected for Senate for nobility confirmation.

The paradoxis is that although they can be found as Poles by today Poles, in reality they never lived in the lands of today Poland or Crown in the age of RP.

They were always Lithuanians (of mixed Slav and Lithuanian origin as everybody there).
They spoke Polish but not only Polish. As all little szlachta in Great Duchy of Lithuania they used Bielorussian and Lithuanian by living in Oszmiany, Kaunas powiat, Wolkowysk and Grodno (sorry for probably incorrect spelling).

For Poles they are Poles being Lithuanians.
And for Lithuanians they aren't Lithuanians.
I'm afraid the same document in Lithuania isn't for those who have such ancestry. Only Lithuanian-speaking peasants in the past seem to be the main symbol of today Lithuanian state. Like peasant-proletarian origin for career in our socialist past.

Can anybody give me explanation of this phenomenon?

A few words more:
It is a great honour to have Polish ancestors.
But it is not a humilation to have ancestors among people from the other part of Commonwealth, from Great Duchy of Lithuania.
The point is that Poland recognizes as sons and daughters people who have ancestors among residents of Gran Duchy of Lithuana and contemporary Lithuania doesn't recognize them. Or I'm wrong...

Your opinions...
Grzegorz_ 51 | 6,161  
28 Sep 2007 /  #2
Karta is for people with at least one Polish parent or grandparent or prove at least 3 years of work for Polish culture or Polish minority organizations.

And that won't let travel without a visa (because EU wouldn't allowe that) only let get a visa without paying for It.
OP truhlei 10 | 332  
28 Sep 2007 /  #3
I didn't know that.
And what about paradoxis?
Lukasz 49 | 1,746  
28 Sep 2007 /  #4
Only Lithuanian-speaking peasants in the past seem to be the main symbol of today Lithuanian state.

Bingo, but it started to change, they started to celebrate for example 3rd May Constitution together with us. (this constitution made from Polish-Lithuanian commonwealth one country Poland)

The point is that Poland recognizes as sons and daughters people who have ancestors among residents of Grand Duchy of Lithuania and contemporary Lithuania doesn't recognize them. Or I'm wrong...

You are right the answer is in first quote.

As to you, you consider yourself Russian or Pole ?
OP truhlei 10 | 332  
28 Sep 2007 /  #5
As to you, you consider yourself Russian or Pole ?

I consider I'm Moskal. I'm Orthodox and I have moral duties there. I'm happy to be Moscal and I feel gratitude to my Polish-speaking ancestors for migrating here although that was in some measure against their desire. I'm happy they didn't manage to use optation in 1921 although I have documents that they were eager to return and suffered much here. But thanks to that I have such a luck to live in Russia now.

I feel my Lithuanian origin (not of the CROWN although I respect the history of both parts of RP).
It is very uneasy to believe, but even when I knew nothing about my ancestors (that was in secret during Communism) and thought they were Poles, despite that I started spending my vacations in different places of Belarus and tried to learn all the history of this region. I didn't know why.

I visited the regions my ancestors lived or wanted to live (by its beauty) without knowledge that was the Fatherland. I was unable to hear a word unknown in Russia, such as folwark.

So, nostalgia doesn't die with people. It goes to their grandsons and grand grandsons

Bingo, but it started to change, they started to celebrate for example 3rd May Constitution together with us. (this constitution made from Polish-Lithuenian comonwealth one coutry Poland)

An interesting change because Lithuanians today seem to be ethnic nationalists. Although they and portuguese people seem to be best peoples in Europe
Grzegorz_ 51 | 6,161  
28 Sep 2007 /  #6
Still in early 90's Lithuanians were rather anti-Polish but now relations are quite good and on government level very good.
OP truhlei 10 | 332  
28 Sep 2007 /  #7
Lithuanians are very nice. Russians who live there tell Lithuanians are kind and with common sense.
There are some very moral people among them.
The only problem for today is that their historians have some ethnic inclinations. They try to convince everybody that Lithuanian Ducks were very attentive to Lithuanian ethnic challenges while in reality they were for uniform existence of the whole state of Slavs and Zemoijts.

They also try to convince that Vilnius was a city of Jemojts only despite the fact that Slavs were there since the very beginning.
Lithuania has usurpated the name of the whole former Great Duchy and nothing may be corrected. But Lithuanian historians sometimes don't even confess this fact.

I think a dispute is required here but on basis of mutual respect. It should be noticed that Lithuanian historians are well educated and they are not scandalists.
Lukasz 49 | 1,746  
28 Sep 2007 /  #8
as to Lithuanians, one group of them noticed that they are not Lithuanians but they are people of ┼╗mudz . And wants some authonomy. We will see what will happen.

The only problem for today is that their historians have some ethnic inclinations. They try to convince everybody that Lithuanian Ducks were very attentive to Lithuanian ethnic challenges while in reality they were for uniform existence of the whole state of Slavs and Zemoijts. They also try to convince that Vilnius was a city of Jemojts only despite the fact that Slavs were there since the very beginning. Lithuania has usurpated the name of the whole former Great Duchy and nothing may be corrected. But Lithuanian historians sometimes don't even confess this fact.

Last times they changed their opinions in many cases, so it looks much better.
osiol 55 | 3,922  
28 Sep 2007 /  #9
Lithuania and Poland have produced some fine jazz music.
Yugoslavia was good too, but that's not the topic!
OP truhlei 10 | 332  
28 Sep 2007 /  #10
Last times they changed their opinions in many cases, so it looks much better.

Lithuanians are of common sence. Polish historians may help them and be mediarors in their disputes with Bielorussian historians
Lukasz 49 | 1,746  
29 Sep 2007 /  #11
Yugoslavia was good too, but that's not the topic!

agree, all Yugoslavian countries lost on this war ...

I think that that kinds of movements are noticeable in all Europe.

Belgium, Spain (Catalonia, Bask) Scotland in UK,
Grzegorz_ 51 | 6,161  
29 Sep 2007 /  #12
The only problem for today is that their historians have some ethnic inclinations.

This is a very small nation. They can't afford to be too submissive.
OP truhlei 10 | 332  
29 Sep 2007 /  #13
That's the main reason.
There is a contradiction between expansionist past and concentrated present.
I think Polish historians may become mediators between Lithuanian past and present. I'm sure Lithuanian historians feel the contradiction and they are trying to superate it.

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