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Senior system administrator in Wroclaw - is 7500 OK?


DGr
6 Sep 2016  #1
Hi.
I have a JO with 7.5k before tax. Is it ok for english-speaking company in Wroclaw?
After taxes I'll get about 6.150 - as I see - it's a minimum for couple with infant (rent a flat). Is it correct?
DominicB - | 2,672
6 Sep 2016  #2
That's 6150 PLN per month MINUS the total cost of your travel, relocation, visa and residence permit expenses to and from Poland divided by 12.

Frankly, that isn't all that attractive for a family of three for a senior position. That's a lousy $23,000 a year, a third to a quarter, or even less, of what you would make in richer countries. Don't forget that your spouse will not be able to work, and you will have to budget generously so that they have something to do without going crazy. Forget about saving up any money except, perhaps, a very, very modest rainy day fund if anything at all. You might even lose money on the deal. In any case, you lifestyle would be have to be very frugal.

I can't see it being worthwhile for a senior professional to drag their family halfway across the planet for so little. If saving money is a high priority for you, then forget about Poland and look for jobs in the richer Western European and English speaking countries.

The big problems with Poland are 1) low wages; 2) high cost of living relative to wages; 3) abysmal savings potential; 4) very high costs of travel and relocation relative to wages; and 5) no immigrant community for you and your spouse to socialize with.
smurf 39 | 1,982
6 Sep 2016  #3
After taxes I'll get about 6.150 - as I see - it's a minimum for couple with infant (rent a flat). Is it correct?

Your partner is gonna need to get a job as well

I wouldn't really agree with Dom on this:

The big problems with Poland are

1) depends on the job
2) food and drink are cheap in Poland, so is going out to restaurants/pubs. Event tickets are certainly affordable.
3) Public transport in Poland is cheap. Petrol is the same price, more or less, all over Europe, car insurance is cheap if you drive.
4) in Wroclaw that's just simply not true, there are 1000s of foreigners living in Wroclaw

Also, a tidbit of information regarding Wroclaw: it has the highest proportion of far-right nazis in Poland.
It's a nice city centre, but other than that it's a bit meh
DominicB - | 2,672
6 Sep 2016  #4
depends on the job

The pay offered $ucks big time by any measure for a senior IT professional with family.

food and drink are cheap in Poland, so is going out to restaurants/pubs.

Only if you are getting paid Western wages. Otherwise, the cost of living is very high relative to local wages, which greatly reduces savings potential.

in Wroclaw that's just simply not true, there are 1000s of foreigners living in Wroclaw

There's no community at all. By far the bulk of those foreigners are students or single working males, and few stay more than a year or two, which means there is no critical mass for community formation. An Indian woman is going to be very lonely indeed, as Indian women do not associate with other Indian women unless they are of the same class/caste/clan. Being tied down with a baby and very little cash is going to make it just about impossible to socialize, anyway.
OP DGr
6 Sep 2016  #5
Thank you, Smurf and DominicB.

I'm asking about median salaries in Wroclaw because in my native country I'll get less than 7.5k PLN. I'll try to do the best for my family - but now I have the only one JO in Wroclaw. So I just wondered: is 7500 ok for such position?
DominicB - | 2,672
6 Sep 2016  #6
I would concentrate on finding a better paying job in a wealthier country. In the US, for example, the pay for a senior systems administrator ranges from $80,000 to $120,000. That is three and a half to five times as much as you would make in Poland. Moving to Poland without the ability to save up any significant amount of money would not be the best thing for your family, and at 7500 PLN, you would not be able to save up anything significant at all, and, as I said, might even lose out on the deal when travel and relocation expenses are factored in, and you might end up poorer than if you had stayed at home. The opportunity cost of taking this job in Poland is far too high.
Simpleman - | 2
15 Sep 2016  #7
If u asking if 8k is ok u must be smoking crack
kaktus44
16 Sep 2016  #8
in Wroclaw, that's a good salary for this role, and at a stretch 3 could have a decent life. Many Poles would consider that this salary would make for a very comfortable life for a small family. Rent for a nice 2 bedroom flat - 2500pln inc bills, food 1000-1250pln a month if you eat 'normal' food and cook from scratch, then you have 2500pln for other costs...
DominicB - | 2,672
16 Sep 2016  #9
in Wroclaw, that's a good salary for this role

No, it isn't. It's downright awful, even by Polish standards.

Many Poles would consider that this salary would make for a very comfortable life for a small family.

Completely irrelevant. The OP is not a Pole, and has nothing in common with them.

and at a stretch 3 could have a decent life.

A very frugal life, at best, and he might even end up in the red. It will be hell for his wife and kid.
kaktus44
16 Sep 2016  #10
You only give unsubstantiated opinions about this situation, and you use emotive language that is unnecessary. If you live in Poland, then you have another agenda other than sticking to reality.

wynagrodzenia.pl/moja-placa/ile-zarabia-administrator-systemow-it - confirms the salary is ok. Yeah the best can earn 10000 net but they need to be working in a niche area and be very skilled. This is an average salary for the role; it means a lot of people are earning it and having a decent life. OK if the OP is 40 and has been working all his life in this area, it would be a low salary. If he's in his late 20s and this is his 1st or 2nd role as a senior then it would a good salary. He may also be getting other benefits.

In 2014 there were 4000 foreign residents in Wroclaw and over 3500 foreign students.

Wroclaw is a very cheap place to live in compared to Western Europe. Look at otodom - decent 3 room flats can be found for 2000pln monthly.
DominicB - | 2,672
16 Sep 2016  #11
Wroclaw is a very cheap place to live in compared to Western Europe.

It's a very expensive place to live, relative to prevailing wages. It's only cheap to live if you are earning a Western salary. The cost of living in Poland is staggeringly high for those earning Polish wages, and savings potential is abysmal.

Everything else you have said is totally irrelevant to the OP's case.
sawiii
16 Sep 2016  #12
To answer OP question: if that 6 k netto would be only for you, that would be A GOOD salary in Wroclaw.
However, if you have wife and kid it isnt that pinky anymore.
The rent in Wroclaw is similar these days to countries like Spain and Germany, which I find rather amusing, funny and disturbing at the same time.

Very often for the same money that you would pay in, lets say, Malaga, you will get worse flat in Wroclaw.
to rent something decent for 3 people you will have to spend something around 2,5 K PLN with bills.... pay another 2,5 K - 3 K PLN for food, clothes, transport, cosmetics and so on for three of you. And you have left around 500-1000 PLN/ month for....

you will survive and be fine, but nothing more
DominicB - | 2,672
16 Sep 2016  #13
The rent in Wroclaw is similar these days to countries like Spain and Germany, which I find rather amusing, funny and disturbing at the same time.

Indeed, this is one of the biggest problems about living in Poland, and Wrocław in particular. I am paying just a little more for a much nicer apartment here in a relative expensive area of the States than what I paid for a basic but "decent" apartment in a blok in Wrocław. Wrocław is the second most expensive city to live in Poland, just a tad behind Warsaw.

The other big problem with Poland, and the one that is more important for the OP, is savings potential, which in his case is zero or less. Add in the cost of losing his home court advantage, and he may well end up poorer than he is in India.

You forgot that the cost of his relocation for himself and his family has to be deducted from his wages. And also presumably assumed that his wife is going to be content with sitting at home with nothing to do and no money to spend on her own social life or hobbies. By Christmas she is going to be begging him to let her fly back home to India, at exorbitant expense.
sawiii
16 Sep 2016  #14
DominicB: when I tell people how expensive is the rent in Wroclaw and when I say to them that it is not much cheaper than in Barcelona, they simply dont believe me. if you dont have connections, like friends with flats who want to rent it cheaper (but safer for them), you will have to pay around 400 euros with bills for some average 1 bedroom flat in Wroclaw. and thats just start

The flats in Poland are much smaller and ******** than those in Spain...Usually if you have 40 m2 flat in Poland it is 2 rooms; in Spain it is usually just one bedroom flat with salon. and how about 50 m2 ? some people in Wroclaw will make from it 3 rooms, while 3 rooms in Spain usually means something around 80 m2.

lets take this as example:
olx.pl/oferta/3pok-rozklad-10-min-galeria-dominikanska-balkon-dla-5-osob-3100zl-CID3-IDhC0Pb.html#d7632a6e29
55 m2, they made 3 rooms from it (ha ha) and the cost with bills is 3100 PLN which is 700 EUR/ month
now lets look at this:
milanuncios.com/alquiler-de-pisos-en-valencia-valencia/campanar-206499628.htm
600 euros (with bills it will be something similar to 700 euros), 110 m2 (!), 3 rooms in the center of Valencia (which is similar city to Wroclaw when it goes to many factors)

and another one in Valencia:
milanuncios.com/alquiler-de-pisos-en-valencia-valencia/valencia-210433347.htm
550 euros (once again - with bills something less than 700 euros) , 130 m2 (!!!), 4 rooms

and so on, so on.

Why it is like that in Poland? Reason: there are not enough flats to rent in Poland, I red somehwere that in Spain there is something around 500 flats for 1000 people, when in Poland it is 320 for 1000 people and not all of them are in good standard....

and one another thing: I came back to Poland 2 months ago, been living in Spain for something like 7 months, when I started to search for the flats here in my home country (Poland), I was shocked and suprised how expensive and ****** they are comparing to Spain.... not only in the biggets cities.

thank god though that there is something like "pokoje prywatne" and "kwatery prywatne" in beautiful holiday towns and resorts in Poland (which doesnt exist in Spain and its ideal if you are single traveller), so now I just travel around nice places in .pl and when the winter will come I will probably go to southern Ukraine... In one milion people city there I will get the decent apartment for 250 euros/ month with bills and will learn Russian, which is a plus ;-)
Atch 17 | 2,843
16 Sep 2016  #15
The flats in Poland are much smaller

In Warsaw they're still building new apartments as small as 16 square metres. Beggars belief doesn't it?
cjj - | 281
16 Sep 2016  #16
Gdansk is a nice place to live.
I've no idea about the salary though - have never had to hire a sys admin.
do you have any scm/build experience?
kaktus44
17 Sep 2016  #17
DominicB - most of what you're saying is irrelevant. The OP's not asking for a comparison to other countries etc. He just wants to know if he can live on this salary in Wroclaw. Yes he can and fairly OK. This is an above average salary for Poland and the cost of living in Wroclaw is very cheap.

otodom.pl/oferta/zadbane-mieszkanie-dostepne-od-zaraz-ID34f7u.html#92afeb1f17 1800pln +400pln bills for a very nice 2 bed.
3950 pln for food and other costs. That's really enough.
Most young families expect to take a hit when they have a kid. One person often doesn't work etc. But they will have a decent life in Wroclaw, if they don't have extravagant tastes.

Cost of living guides.
expatistan.com/cost-of-living/wroclaw ranks 239th out of 262
flat-club.com/wroclaw-cost-of-living-guide
sawii
17 Sep 2016  #18
so he will be spending like 1 hour to get to his office from that Ksieze Male... good deal indeed.
but yeah, the flat is decent, not small.. around 2300-2400 with bills, which is around 550 euros. judge for yourself if its a lot or not.

The guy will get around 6 k netto, they will spend 2400 on the flat, he will get 3600 for the rest - family of 3.
maybe he will save 1000 PLN monthly if he will be lucky and smart.
the only thing that its cheaper in Wroclaw than in West is the cost of labour, thus ->>all services are cheaper. taxis, barber shops, transport, massages, transport, net access, calls, most of bars and restaurants and so on.

the rest - rent, food in markets, clothes, cosmetics, electronics are at the same price or sometimes even more expensive.

now ask yourself how much you spend on services in your daily life and you will know if living in Wroclaw will be significantly cheaper than in other countries, like Spain, Germany, Portugal, southern Italy and maybe even some part of the France
DominicB - | 2,672
18 Sep 2016  #19
This is an above average salary for Poland and the cost of living in Wroclaw is very cheap.

No, it isn't, especially for a foreigner who does not have the network of family and friends to rely on. I lived eight years in Wrocław myself, and twelve years in Poland, so I know the cost of living from the standpoint of a foreigner myself, and it is shockingly high compared to local wages.

This is an above average salary for Poland

He's not an "average Pole", and anything that applies to them, does not apply to him and his family.

he will be spending like 1 hour to get to his office from that Ksieze Male

I lived in Kzięże Małe for a couple of months. It's on the very fringe of the city, and not an easy commute. It's basically more village than city, and the nearest parts of the city are a horribly ugly series of big boxes and strip malls, and then the dreaded Trókąt Bermudzki, or an industrial district if you go the other way. Not a good place to live for a foreigner and his family. I found living in the unspectacular, but central and well-connected Strzepin-Mikołajów heaven compared to living out there.

maybe he will save 1000 PLN monthly if he will be lucky and smart.

Not after you deduct the cost of travel and relocation to Poland for him and his family, he won't. No matter how smart or lucky he is. No matter how much (or how little) cabbage and potatoes he and his family eat. And even if he did, 200 Euros a month is pathetic for a senior network system administrator. That means he would be trapped, and unable to either seek better work elsewhere, or relocate there if he did find something better.

Seems like everyone keeps ignoring that he has to pay for his relocation costs, and that they have to be deducted from his earnings in Poland. And that working in Poland represents a totally unacceptable opportunity loss compared to working in the West.

No use trying to put lipstick on this pig. There is nothing about this job offer that is remotely tempting, even for an Indian.
kaktus44
18 Sep 2016  #20
sawii / dominica - I appreciate you have local knowledge. It's 4.4km to the centre and there's also a tram that runs into the centre- 9 stops or so. I don't think this takes one hour, does it? 540 euro for a 69m2 furnished flat all bills (heating!) included 9 stops into the city centre.

If it's his or her 1st job in Europe then it's a great chance to get a foot on the continent and some European experience. In a year or two he could look to get a better job in other country or start shopping around in Poland. Although he's earning a decent salary he could look to increase this by 2,000 pln within a year easily.

tradingeconomics.com/poland/wages - he's earning nearly double the average wage and well above the living wage for a family.
vlad77
18 Sep 2016  #21
I work in IT and live in Wroclaw. I tend to agree with kaktus44. This salary is in line with the job market. With that income you will have better life than most Poles, even if your spouse doesn't work. Not every foreigner needs pampering, even life of an "average Pole" is dream life for people 80% of people on this planet. As for the apartment prices, two-room apartments in Gadow Maly (close to Nokia, IBM, Wroclaw Techno Park, lots of IT companies, 20 min by tram to the center) can be easily found for 2200-2300 including bills.
DominicB - | 2,672
18 Sep 2016  #22
This salary is in line with the job market.

It's crap. It's a measly $23,000 for a job that pays $80,000 to $120,000 in the States, and about the same in the other richer countries. That's less than a street sweeper or burger flipper makes in many cities. If he got a job in a richer country, then he could easily save as much as he would make in Poland.

If it's his or her 1st job in Europe then it's a great chance to get a foot on the continent and some European experience.

Why come to Poland at all when he could just as well go straight to a richer country? He doesn't need to "get his foot in the door" at all. He has real experience to sell, and will have no problem selling it in a richer country. Why work for lousy peanuts when he can work for real money? Why eat cabbage and potatoes when he could eat steak and lobster?
vlad77
18 Sep 2016  #23
DominicB: I don't see any mention of a job offer from the States in the introductory post, so how is your comparison relevant? Why do you think he needs you to tell him that in high-income countries he could get much more?! Isn't that obvious? If it was so easy for someone from a 3rd word country to find a high paid job a rich country, all system admins from India would eat stakes and lobster in San Francisco, London, Zurich. You are not helping at all.
DominicB - | 2,672
18 Sep 2016  #24
I gave him the best advice I could give: forget about wasting time on this lousy job, and concentrate on finding a much better paying job in a richer country, which he will find if he seriously looks.
AngryPole
18 Sep 2016  #25
DominicB, you are just not familiar. There is no way system administrator gets paid 80k in USA not to mention 120k. Average salary for that is 50-60k max. Also you are missing a very important point - there is absolutely no chance of topic starter getting a work visa to US with for that position, while in Poland he already has all the immigration stuff figured out.
DominicB - | 2,672
18 Sep 2016  #26
There is no way system administrator gets paid 80k in USA not to mention 120k.

US average for a senior systems administrator is $105,290. according to GlassDoor:

glassdoor.com/Salaries/senior-systems-administrator-salary-SRCH_KO0,28.htm

And, of course, he has a very good chance of finding work and getting a visa to the US or any other rich Western country.
AngryPole
19 Sep 2016  #27
DominicB, I can't speak of other Western countries, but for US H1B work visa chances are very slim if not to say non-existent. The process of sponsoring an H1B visa is painful for the company and takes a year from the beginning to the day the recipient could start working. And even so, the application will still have to win a lottery which had a 33% winning chance last year (there were roughly 3 times more applications submitted than the yearly H1B quota). After considering all above said, frankly, what US company would go through that kind of a hustle to hire a system administrator from India? Let's be realistic here, that's all I'm saying.
Rising star
24 Mar 2017  #28
Merged:

salary expentation



What is average salary for senior system administrator in Wroclaw and Katowice??? I need to tell expected salary to my Poland manager.But as im working in India dont have any idea....Im moving there with my wife also i need take care of my parents in India. I want to save minimum of Rs.50K per month after all expenditure and taxes.
DominicB - | 2,672
24 Mar 2017  #29
@Rising star

You're going to need at least 15000 PLN a month to lead that sort of lifestyle, or more. depending on how much you need to send home to India.

Also, never tell your prospective employer your salary expectations. You automatically lose the negotiation process. Always kick the ball back in their court and ask them how much they are offering. If they don't tell you without hesitation, then don't work for them. It means that they are dishonest and want to take advantage of you. If you tell them your salary expectations first, you are just telling them that you are stupid and giving them permission to treat you like an idiot. And that is exactly what they will do.


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