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Job offer from IT Giant in Katowice, Poland (UNIX specialist). Information on tax and rental costs needed.


Ghilli 1 | 14
25 Apr 2014 #1
Hi Friends,

Im new to this forum. Kindly help me through with few doubts.I almost got an offer from an IT Giant in Katowice and looks like the TAX is 30%.

Please help me understand, do i get any benefits out of these paid TAX.??

I would relocate with my family to poland.myself, wife & kid...so, how much it should cost me to rent a 2 room house.?

Thanks........
DominicB - | 2,709
25 Apr 2014 #2
Briefly, if you are being offered any less than 12,000 PLN gross before taxes (8000 PLN net after taxes), it will probably not be worth your while moving to Poland with a wife and kid. There are plenty of much better opportunities in Western Europe and the English speaking countries. Your time would be much better spent exploring those opportunities.

Also, your question is far to general to answer except in the most general, and totally useless, way. You provided zero information about yourself. This is not a mind readers' forum. Where are you form? What are your qualifications, skills and experience. The same for your wife. How old is your kid? How long did you plan to stay in Poland? What are your plans after that? What do you expect to get out of working in Poland? How much do you want to save up? The more you tell us about yourself and your situation, the more useful an answer you will get.
OP Ghilli 1 | 14
26 Apr 2014 #3
Hi Dominic,

Thanks for your reply .
I'm from India, I will be working as unix specialist in Katowice and it's IBM.
Overall 8+ years of experience is wat I have..
Salary they offered me is 14000 pln.. Kindly let me know , would that be sufficient enough
to live moderate life and some savings.
I would like to settle down in poland for sometime.. I mean atleast 5 years or so..
My wife is not working and my kid is jus 3 years old now.
Just help me explain, how much would be the monthly expenses on an average.
Is it really worth moving to poland..????

Thanks again...
InWroclaw 89 | 1,914
26 Apr 2014 #4
Salary they offered me is 14000 pln..

Dominic knows a lot about Poland and employment, and much more than I know. However, 14K (or 14tys in Polish) sounds like good money for Poland. Your apartment rental (always haggle 20% off if you can, and negotiate the agent commission fee down 30-50%) will probably be 1500-2000PLN for something good, or 2500PLN for something extra good. If I had 14K coming in before tax each month I'd be jumping for joy here. Many Poles make do on 2K. The majority earn 4-5K. As an IT person specialising in Unix, it's not impossible that someone somewhere else will offer you more, but 14K is a good introduction to Poland IMHO. Lucky boy!
DominicB - | 2,709
26 Apr 2014 #5
Salary they offered me is 14000 pln.

Salary is very good by Polish standards. Not so good by global standards. It comes to 56,000 USD per year. You could make double that or more as a Unix specialist in Western Europe or in the English speaking countries. The bottom line is how many DOLLARS you are able to squirrel away at the end of the month. While cost of living is somewhat lower than in the West, this does not offset the lower wages. I would keep looking for better opportunities elsewhere, though that is about the top you will get in Poland. Really good for IBM, who are notoriously low payers here in Poland. The fact that they offered you so much to work in Poland is a good sign that your skills are in demand, and you can find a better paying job in the West or the English speaking countries. Take it as a big confidence booster.

If you think that by taking the job, you will be in a stronger position to find a better job elsewhere, go for it. More about that later, though.

I would like to settle down in poland for sometime.. I mean atleast 5 years or so..

in Katowice

God knows why. Frankly, Katowice is one of the ugliest cities in Poland. It's a gritty, run-down coal-mining center that possesses very little in the way of charm compared to other Polish cities like Wrocław or Kraków, And Poland is not a rich country like Germany, Holland Sweden or the UK. Very far from it. And it's not multicultural by any stretch of the imagination. There are few immigrants compared to other European countries, especially from the subcontinent. I really doubt that you and your family are going to last a whole five years in Katowice. Sounds like you really have to do some more research on this.

Your wife is going to lose it sooner or later. Unless she is a very highly qualified IT specialist herself, she will have zero chance of finding employment in Poland. Likewise, educational opportunities for her are pretty slim pickings, so there is a very real chance that she will be bored to death. Without knowing Polish, she will have a very difficult time operating in Polish society. Knowledge of English is not widespread except among young students and recent grads. As for learning Polish, it will be several years of hard work before either you or your wife will learn enough Polish to operate comfortably. It's not a "plug-and-play" language like English or the Indian languages. The grammar is bewilderingly complex, and it will be a long time before you will be able to express even basic things. It requires such a large investment of time and effort that it is hardly worth it unless you are determined to stay in Poland for a very, very long time, which I doubt you will.

There will, of course, be a few other Indian and foreign women in Katowice who are likewise wives of foreign workers. However, whether there are enough of them to form a viable community, I don't know. I doubt it. There are very few foreigners in Poland compared to Germany or the UK. From my experience, Indian women have a very difficult time socializing with other Indian women abroad because of your rigid class structure. Keeping foreign spouses intellectually stimulated is a major problem here in Poland, even for other Europeans. There is a very high risk that she will become socially isolated.

The kid, however, is at a good age. He or she should have no problem fitting in, provided both you and your wife are open and supportive. Don't know about educational opportunities in Katowice, though. You'll have to ask your future colleagues about that, or maybe somebody else on this forum knows more about that. Expect to pay anywhere from 500 PLN on up for your kids education/day care if you expect him or her to be in an English speaking environment, if such a thing exists in Katowice.

Salary they offered me is 14000 pln.. Kindly let me know , would that be sufficient enough
to live moderate life and some savings.

A decent two-bedroom apartment is going to cost you from 2500 to 3500 PLN, including rent, administration fees and utilities. Highly depends on the level of comfort you desire. When looking at apartment prices, remember that the number of bedrooms is one less than the number of rooms advertised. So if you are looking for a two bedroom apartment, you will be looking for a three-room apartment (3-pokojowe). Also remember that the advertised price is NOT the full price of the apartment. There will be anywhere from 300 to 800 PLN in administration fees, and utilities will cost about 400 PLN for a family of three, and possibly more depending on heating, which is a wild card.

Food and sundry household items will cost you about 1500 to 2000 PLN for a family of three of your status. Possibly less if you're willing to adapt to the local cooking traditions. Possibly more depending on how exotic you want to cook. While I doubt whether there is a decent Indian shop in Katowice, you will be able to do your shopping in Kraków, which is about an hour and a half away. Can't say for sure how expensive that will be, though. Your future compatriot colleagues will be able to help you with that.

The above does not include clothes, books, home electronics etc. That's another wildcard that depends on your tastes and expectations.

Transit cards for you and your wife will set you back about 150 to 200 PLN a month. If you're planning to purchase or hire a car, that will be a major expense depending on what you buy or hire.

Entertainment expenses are a major wild card. It can add up to a lot if you spend a lot of time traveling to Kraków. Again, this highly depends on your lifestyle and preferences. Don't forget that you will have to provide sufficient activities for both your wife and your kid to keep them intellectually stimulated. What you don't want is for them to stay shut up at home with nothing to do.

As an Indian, you and your family are going to have to deal with winter in Poland. Unless you've lived in a country where there is really winter, nothing in your life will have prepared you for the actual experience. Many people from warmer climes simply can't deal with it and end up packing their bags in January and heading home. It's tolerable and can even be pleasant if you are totally satisfied with he money you are making. Less so if you are not. Katowice, in particular, can be very depressing in the winter.

it's IBM

This is a double-edged sword. Although, on paper, you will be working for IBM, you will be essentially cut off from the mainstream corporate ladder. It may not be there foot in the door that you are looking for. The jobs that IBM provides in Poland largely involve uninteresting grunt work that Americans don't want to do unless they get paid a real, real lot. It's essentially in-company outsourcing, and any corporate decisions made in your regard will be based on solely one factor: keeping costs low. And, considering IBM's reputation for stinginess in Poland, it is very likely that you will not receive a substantial raise in the next five years.

The interesting creative jobs stay in the US or or other wealthy countries. This will be a problem as far as advancement within the corporate structure goes. This is a major complaint among Polish engineers working for big international foreign companies. A lot of them feel trapped and cheated. You'll have to some very serious talks with some VERY experienced engineers back in India and ask for guidance in this regard. Take advice only from those who have worked for large corporations like IBM.

As for savings, your TOTAL pay in Poland will be equal to the TOTAL amount of dollars you would be able to save if you were to find an equivalent job in the US, for example, even taking cost of living into account. It's theoretically possible to save about $12,000 US per year if you and your family live modestly, and maybe a little bit more if you are frugal. That's the number that really counts, and it isn't all that attractive by global standards. About 20 percent of what you would be able to comfortably put aside if you were to land a comparable job in the States. That's a difference of about $200,000 in your savings account at the end of five years. No small peanuts. That will put your kid through the best colleges on the planet. Fine if you decide that a job in Poland is the only available stepping stone to a brighter future elsewhere for the time being, which I doubt is the case. But not good enough to justify a five-year stay, or to justify not looking for a better job elsewhere.

The preceding paragraph is the most important thing I've written. NEVER stop looking for a better job, and ALWAYS may career decisions taking savings potential in absolute DOLLARS into account. The worst mistake engineers make is to stop looking for a better job once they find a job. That is a recipe for misery and failure. Keep swimming like a shark.

Frankly, you might do just as well by staying in India for the time being rather than coming to Poland. Employment and educational opportunities for your wife will be much more easily available, the quality of life comparable or even better, and opportunities for your kid will be better, too. I have a Polish engineer friend who got transferred to India on a five year contract, and he has a wife and a five-year-old boy. They are having the time of their lives, and love it so much that I don't think they'll ever come back to Poland.

Last of all, if you are thinking of Poland as a "back door" to the EU, forget about it. With your qualifications and experience, there are much better ways of going about that without having to sneak in. You can walk proudly through the front door. Do your research, keep on evaluating other offers and opportunities, and, for God's sake, never act out of desperation. You don't have to. I'm inclined to think that patience and thorough research will pay off in spades for you in the end, and that Poland is not in the cards. Best of luck!
OP Ghilli 1 | 14
26 Apr 2014 #6
Hi Dominic,

Im really impressed the way you have explained things. Appreciate and thanks a ton for spending your time to help me on this.
I would like to hang out every weekend with my family in poland. Mostly i would use public transport and wanted to keep my wife & kid engaged with some activities.

I mean there are few things on my mind. I thought, first let me come over to poland and work here for atleast an year.over this time frame, Me & my wife wanted to learn few languages also...like Polish, German & French.., i knew its going to be really hard to learn all of those.But, We should be able to learn one atleast.

You know moving to English speaking countries like US or UK is really rock hard to get through...and first of all they have enough people with the same skill sets and they don't intend to take people from India.Many MNC (Multination companies in india

like WIPRO,TCS......etc....they apply work permit and visa to work in the US or UK.But, the compensation would be very average. After running through your comments, i have become little reluctant with this opportunity...Im a person who wants to explore countries in europe.

Is it possible that, initially i come over to poland and then later i could look for some better opportunities..?
How about people in poland??? are they friendly enough..???
How about traveling to other european countries.?.do i have more chances for that..?
I heard that, poland has some best education institutions comparing to other countries.
How about buying a car in poland...? can i afford one..? please let me know some tentative price list.

Finally some entertainment for me.. Im a great follower of soccer....Does poland telecast all the soccer tournaments like Champions league, Italian league, laliga & EPL....?

Thanks for your help Dominic and Inwroclaw.......
DominicB - | 2,709
26 Apr 2014 #7
Is it possible that, initially i come over to poland and then later i could look for some better opportunities..?

Like I said, that may be a possibility, but it would probably not be any better than looking from India.

How about people in poland??? are they friendly enough..???

Yes, they're friendly enough, but not many of them speak English, especially among people over 40.

How about traveling to other european countries.?.do i have more chances for that..?

The richer countries of Western Europe would be a much wiser choice than Poland, both short-term and long-term. Scandinavia in particular.

Me & my wife wanted to learn few languages also...like Polish, German & French.

German and/or French make sense, but there is little point in learning Polish unless you plan to spend many, many years of your life here. It's not an international language.

You know moving to English speaking countries like US or UK is really rock hard to get through...and first of all they have enough people with the same skill sets and they don't intend to take people from India.Many MNC (Multination companies in india
like WIPRO,TCS......etc....they apply work permit and visa to work in the US or UK.But, the compensation would be very average.

The opportunities for advancement, though, would be a lot greater, including future earnings and savings potential. Starting at a MNC in India and getting transferred to the home country would be a good strategy. Working in Poland won't help in this regard.

and first of all they have enough people with the same skill sets and they don't intend to take people from India.

Good engineers are highly in demand in both the UK and the US, far more so than in Poland. A lot of Polish engineers have emigrated to these countries. Poland is a country that engineers emigrate from, not immigrate to. For good reason (low wages with little chance of advancement).

I heard that, poland has some best education institutions comparing to other countries.

You heard wrong. Terribly wrong. Tertiary education in Poland is worse than in India, especially in technical fields, with a few minor exceptions. And abysmal in comparison to the States, the UK or Western Europe. Whoever told you that is full of baloney, and don't believe any hype you might read on the internet. Polish universities are aggressively marketing themselves to naive residents of developing countries as a viable cheaper alternative to American and British universities. It's essentially a scam. Don't believe a word of it.

How about buying a car in poland...? can i afford one..? please let me know some tentative price list.

That very much depends on what kind of car you want. Generally, yes, but then the amount you could save would go down. Depends on how much you'd be willing to spend.

Finally some entertainment for me.. Im a great follower of soccer....Does poland telecast all the soccer tournaments like Champions league, Italian league, laliga & EPL....?

I'm sure that you can get some type of paid TV package that will provide you with all the coverage you need. How much it will cost, I don't have the foggiest idea. The only thing I know about soccer is that the ball is spherical, unlike American footballs (and that makes me an expert in soccer compared to most Americans).

After running through your comments, i have become little reluctant with this opportunity...Im a person who wants to explore countries in europe.

Understandably so. Like I said, although it's good money for Poland, it's not all that good on a global scale. Explore jobs in the UK, Norway, Finland, Sweden, Denmark, the Netherlands and Germany. Wages and opportunities are much better than in Poland, as is quality of life. You're even going to be able to see a lot more of Europe working in the States that you will be able to afford to working in Poland.

Don't forget, the differences between countries in Europe is enormous. Unlike the countries I listed above, Poland is poor and not a land of bounding opportunity. Wages are much lower. The difference between Germany and Poland is about the difference between Singapore and India. Just crossed the border a few months ago on the train, and the thing that struck me is that you could actually HEAR the exact moment that you entered Germany because of the quality of the tracks. Or rather NOT HEAR, because the ride became suddenly smooth and silent.

Oh. If you are going to Germany, avoid former East Germany. Racism is a very big problem there. In short, avoid anywhere in Europe that was once communist, as well as the countries of southern Europe. Stick to the list I gave above, and you won't go wrong. Get yourself located and situated in a global innovation center as soon as you can. There are none in Poland, or in former communist countries as a whole.
OP Ghilli 1 | 14
26 Apr 2014 #8
Thanks Bro..So, can i deny this offer..wats your say..?
Dougpol1 32 | 2,673
26 Apr 2014 #9
Katowice, in particular, can be very depressing in the winter.

I was enjoying your (exhaustive) Dominik. Stop what you're doing and start a 'recipe style' travel service :)

Let me correct you if I may....

Gdynia (my experience), Warsaw, Poznan, and tens of minor cities are very depressing in the winter. And Gdansk has bitter wind chill which results in one of three things:

1. Non stop bedroom action
2. Drinking
3. Gaming consoles

The first two could be considered fun.

Katowice on the other hand has real winter, excellent infrastructure, and happy ski resorts an hour's drive away - I commend it the OP and urge him that you don't need to go to boringly snobbish Krakow every weekend just because it's there :)

PS Because this silly forum doesn't allow instant edit.....

I have finished your treatise now, and I have to say, that's a damning indictment of the Polish economy and society, which would get us all reaching for the noose, if only hanging quality rope wasn't so expensive in Poland.

Don't you ever think of anything else but money Dominik? :))
DominicB - | 2,709
26 Apr 2014 #10
Gdynia (my experience), .... very depressing in the winter.

Laughed out loud when I read that. I used to spend every winter school break in Orłowo because it was so beautiful and peaceful. Walks along the cliffs in heavy snowstorms are among my fondest memories. Very romantic. And bedtime activities were excellent, as well. Something about the air from the bay.

Katowice on the other hand has real winter, excellent infrastructure, and happy ski resorts an hour's drive away. curiously, it's the summer that I spend in those mountains

That's true. Skiing and winter sports are close and there is lots to do. But inside the city, it's horribly depressing. As for infrastructure, generally true, except that the city is split in half by the train line, and it is a major hassle to get from one side of the city to the other. And that's coming from someone who lives in Wrocław, with its God only really knows how many branches of the Odra and over 200 bridges (still not enough). Why there are so few ways to get under the tracks in Katowice, I never figured out.

Kidding aside, winter can be a terrible shock for people from warmer climes. Every year I hear international students here in Wrocław freaked out about it. Already in November. They can't get used to the idea that it's a 24-hour a day deal, as far as the eye can see, for months on end. I think a lot of them have the impression that it lasts for an hour or two in a small area and happens only a couple of times during the season. I've known students who've packed their bags and gone home. One Kenyan student I knew seriously thought the world was coming to an end, and that wasn't a particularly bad winter at all. Another time, I took an Egyptian student with me to visit friends in Jelenia Góra. It happened to be the day of the first real snow that year. He couldn't get over the fact that there was snow not only in Wrocław, but every along the way all the way to JG. "It's EVERYWHERE", he kept on repeating. In horror. He spent the whole weekend right in front of the fireplace, and we couldn't get him to go outside with us even for a moment.

On the other hand, I took a Pakistani student up there once, and he jumped naked into the ice-covered mountain stream along with the rest of us on New Years Day. He really enjoyed it a lot, to the point where we had to explain to him that he would end up with hypothermia if he spent too much time in the water. He couldn't get over the fact that the icy water was warmer than the air.

Actually, autumn is a bit of a shock for them, too. "Why are all the trees dying?"

Don't you ever think of anything else but money Dominik? :))

That's funny. I'm a pretty ascetic Buddhist, and money isn't the main issue for me. I took a twelve year break from a pretty lucrative career as a pathologist to come to Poland and help out young people. On the other hand, money is a much higher priority for a person with a wife and kid, such as the OP, who even intimated as such in his first post.

The advancement issue is more important, and by no means in terms of cash only. Job satisfaction for an engineer very much depends on being part of the creative and innovative elite, rather than doing boring drudge work that no one else wants to do. The former lifts your soul. The latter destroys it, especially if you are not being adequately rewarded.

Even so, there is no particular advantage for the OP to come to Poland, financial or otherwise. If he were single and not as experienced, like Paritosh, for example, I would say "Go for it". But with the wife and kid, priorities are different. Very, very different.

You seem to think that I'm saying that Poland is a bad place. That's not what I'm saying at all. I'm saying that there are better places than Poland for the OP. Don't you agree?
OP Ghilli 1 | 14
26 Apr 2014 #11
Hi Dominic,

So, can i deny this offer..wats your say..?
DominicB - | 2,709
26 Apr 2014 #12
Like I said, have a few good long talks with experienced senior engineers who know your personal situation better. I see no reason to accept the offer, but I don't know anything about you and your situation except what you've written on this thread. You can show them what I've written here and ask them what they think.
InWroclaw 89 | 1,914
26 Apr 2014 #13
that's a damning indictment of the Polish economy and society

You sound very optimistic. Methinks you just landed another proofreading contract :P
Tamarisk
26 Apr 2014 #14
I am curious, with such a large salary offered, why wouldn't an applicant from the EU secure a job such as this? I can't believe that there aren't fully qualified people from the UK or Germany or elsewhere who would love the opportunity to work for 14000 PLN a month. And, the company wouldn't have the hassle of having to secure a work visa since an EU applicant would not require such.
InWroclaw 89 | 1,914
26 Apr 2014 #15
I too don't approve of non Poles getting jobs that Poles could do. However, it probably the case that many Poles with this skill have gone to Germany or Eire to earn a lot more there instead of locally in PL. Perverse but probably true.
Monitor 14 | 1,820
26 Apr 2014 #16
I can't believe that there aren't fully qualified people from the UK or Germany or elsewhere who would love the opportunity to work for 14000 PLN a month.

That's only 3 324 EUR - beginner's salary in east Germany, not a person's with 8 years experience. In UK the net pay in IT is even higher. Perhaps someone from Romania or Bulgary could come, but if they take people from India, that means that people ready to emigrate would rather go working in Germany or UK for substantially more than that.

To help author of the post. You got offered very good salary in not so expensive Polish city.
Advantages:
- live in Europe, so you will have Schengen Visa thus easy access to all Schengen countries. For example there are buses from Katowice to Viena from 40zł. A lot to see.

- Better working conditions than in India. In Polish IT working time is 8h (9 - 17), overtimes are rather exception. Commuting time in Katowice is very low comparing with Banglore. around 10 holiday days per year + 26 days off.

- IBM gives some extras like gym or extra medical packet.

Disadvantages:
- Poland has the smallest number of immigrants in EU, so you may feels stares of people, because of darker skin color.
- Learning Polish is multiple year commitment, so you will not integrate easily with the country.
- Katowice is one of uglier cities in Poland
- 6 months of winter cold

To comment DominicB. Although work in multinational IT corporations is internal outsourcing, it doesn't mean that all projects are boring. Especially when you say UNIX specialist. I guess administration, then It's the same weather you are in Poland or USA. I also don't think that experience from Poland will give you more chance getting a job in the west. Except if you stay in Poland for 5 years. Then you will get permanent permit to stay and unrestricted access to job market of EU. About some occupation for you wife.. Perhaps learning languages is something to do. Other option is doing some master in one of Katowice's universities. With Polish diploma she doesn't need work permit for work in Poland. But then she needs to know Polish and win competition with locals and unemployment in Poland is higher than in Germany or UK.

To conclude. In case you cannot get a job in some western country, then you could give it a try. But try to contact some Indians living in Poland beforehand. to learn how they feel in our homogeneous country. I think you would feel the best in UK, as they have there many Indians.
Dougpol1 32 | 2,673
26 Apr 2014 #17
You sound very optimistic. Methinks you just landed another proofreading contract :P

Excellent! :)

No, I found an extra 10 zloty note I didn't know i had.

And Dominik, those were class posts. You are easily the most erudite pathologist I have ever come across - though I must confess I have never met a pathologist in the professional sense, and when I finally do, I will not be in a position to comment on their prose, will I?

Very entertaining stuff - are you published? :) I always fancied myself as a writer, but I am disillusioned to the point of despair after your posts - in much the same vein as Clapton and Townesend considering dumping their guitars in the nearest skip, on hearing Hendrix at the Bag o'Nails club in '66, I am tempted to put away my gold tipped quill for good.

Orlowo is a hoot, but there is nowhere for me and the labrador to wet our whistle :( Katowice wins out there - but if the OP doesn't drink then that fact is admittedly a moot point.
DominicB - | 2,709
27 Apr 2014 #18
I can't believe that there aren't fully qualified people from the UK or Germany or elsewhere who would love the opportunity to work for 14000 PLN a month.

You must be joking. That's a measly $56,000 a year. Qualified engineers from the UK or Germany that could do this level of work wouldn't even get out of bed for so little. As monitor said, it's about what a recent grad gets there. And yes, the reason that the company is bringing in someone from India is precisely because it's getting harder and harder to find a Pole who will get out of bed for that little money. Or, as Monitor pointed out, even someone from Bulgaria or Romania. Those that can have fled West. The pay is three times as much. They can't afford to turn down about $100,000 a year.

Although work in multinational IT corporations is internal outsourcing, it doesn't mean that all projects are boring. Especially when you say UNIX specialist. I guess administration, then It's the same weather you are in Poland or USA.

Point well made. Thanks.

I also don't think that experience from Poland will give you more chance getting a job in the west. Except if you stay in Poland for 5 years. Then you will get permanent permit to stay and unrestricted access to job market of EU.

That's an incredibly expensive price to pay for access to the job market in the EU. One that the OP, with his qualifications and experience, can easily forgo. This guy isn't just some recent grad. He has plenty of hair on his chest. He just has to learn to thump it.

About some occupation for you wife.. Perhaps learning languages is something to do.

Ummm... you do realize that women can become engineers, too. If I were to recommend something (which I am about to), I would recommend something like petroleum engineering, geological engineering, biomedical engineering, financial engineering, financial mathematics, actuarial mathematics or econometrics as first line choices. With an well-earning husband, she can afford to study at a good school. Languages would be aiming low. They are splendid as a side interest, I agree, but they don't put bread on the table. They do put the butter on it, though. And salt, as well. I have two language degrees myself, German and Classical Languages, and I taught myself Danish and Polish. They make doing science at lot more fun.

Very entertaining stuff - are you published?

Extensively. I've written, coauthored or translated over 500 scientific papers and ten books in the last twelve years alone, and God knows how many before then.

I must confess I have never met a pathologist in the professional sense, and when I finally do, I will not be in a position to comment on their prose, will I?

Most pathologists work with living patients. The autopsies are a side hobby. A pathologist is a specialist in diagnosis. Most of my career was spent diagnosing leukemia and other blood disorders in children.

Disadvantages:
- Poland has the smallest number of immigrants in EU, so you may feels stares of people, because of darker skin color.

I was thinking about mentioning that, too. I have to admit that after 12 years of living in Poland, even I turn my head when I see a dark-complected person walking the streets. And that's in Wrocław, which, by Polish standards, is pretty cosmopolitan.

- Learning Polish is multiple year commitment, so you will not integrate easily with the country.

The investment in time and effort would be so great that I would recommend that the OP and his wife not even bother. Even if he did stay for five years, it probably wouldn't pay off. As I said above, Polish isn't a "plug and play" language like English or Hindi. Saying even the simplest things requires a lot of grammatical gymnastics. After twelve years of professional translating here in Poland, with reading skills that greatly exceed those of by far most Poles, I still have a difficult time with the spoken language. I operate mostly in English, as will the OP.

To conclude. In case you cannot get a job in some western country, then you could give it a try. But try to contact some Indians living in Poland beforehand. to learn how they feel in our homogeneous country. I think you would feel the best in UK, as they have there many Indians.

I concur, except that I would cast the net a bit wider in Europe, and also include the Anglosphere, particularly the States, and Australia, too.
Jardinero 1 | 405
27 Apr 2014 #19
You must be joking. That's a measly $56,000 a year. Qualified engineers from the UK or Germany that could do this level of work wouldn't even get out of bed for so little.

OK, but you are still comparing apples to oranges... for such comparison to make sense, you need to factor in your expenses...
jogo
27 Apr 2014 #20
14k in Poland you will live like a king. Dominic is writing a lot bs! You have to check yourself and stop listening others (who have an interest in writing nonsense)

14k is a lot of money. Life in UK, German, USA is a lot more expensive.
DominicB - | 2,709
27 Apr 2014 #21
OK, but you are still comparing apples to oranges... for such comparison to make sense, you need to factor in your expenses...

And I did. The lower cost of living in Poland would go nowhere near offsetting the much lower wages. Not by a long shot. No matter how you cut it, the pay is low on a global scale in terms of future savings potential in absolute dollars. Like I said above, at best, the OP can expect to set aside about $12,000 a year if he takes this job. Maybe a little more if he and his family live very frugally, but not much more. That's about a fifth of what he would be able to save if he got a comparable job in the States, apples to apples. Over five years, that's a difference of at least $200,000. He could send his kid to Rose-Hulman or Harvey Mudd for that, cash on the table up front.

Really, Jardinero, your ideas about cost of living in Poland are off by a wide mile, especially for higher level foreign professionals with families. I've pointed that out to you several times before, and again I'll say that you are under some sort of romantic delusion.

For your part, you're not factoring in the lower standard of living this family will have in Poland, especially as far as opportunities for advancement and self-improvement are concerned. Both financially and professionally, it may well turn out that taking a job in India for the next five years would be a better move than working in Poland. And it will almost certainly be more pleasant than living as isolated outsiders in one of the ugliest cities in Poland. Even if the job were here in beautiful Wrocław, I would not recommend that the OP take the job unless he were truly desperate. And with his qualifications and experience, he has no real reason to be. He's a shoo-in for a better job elsewhere.

The savings in living costs in Poland only pays off if you are living entirely off of previous savings, like I am. It doesn't work if you have to earn a living, except in rare cases where you are being paid at Western rates, which this guy isn't.
Monitor 14 | 1,820
27 Apr 2014 #22
14k is a lot of money. Life in UK, German, USA is a lot more expensive.

but from his salary in these countries he could buy much more trips to India for his family.
jogo
27 Apr 2014 #23
Ghilli - ask yourself why dominic is sitting on this forum and is writting only how bad in Poland is. "Dont come to Poland, u must get 100k or u will be poor person"

Check his archives and u will see that. He is writing this bs all the time and he is still living in Poland.
Ask yourself why he is doing that. Go to Poland and check personally.
Because some people may have an interest in writing here lies.
OP Ghilli 1 | 14
27 Apr 2014 #24
Looks like positives and negatives are mixed together.LIfe is always a thriller..so, let me see wat i could do..
But, Im little hesitant to omit this opportunity either...im also confused a bit.
I have sent my documents to the company and they are in to some verification of those.Once, everything is ok..they would release the offer and from there i have take my decision.

Do we have churches in katowice..?
Can somebody help me to explain about these taxes.?
I would be paying 30% of my salary and will I be getting any benefits out it..?
Any idea on how much should it cost for my kid schooling..? just three years old...

Thanks for all your help & suggestions..
Thanks to Dominc, monitor, jogo, jardinero & inwroclaw for spending your time to help...
InWroclaw 89 | 1,914
27 Apr 2014 #25
Thanks to Dominic, monitor, jogo, jardinero & inwroclaw for spending your time to help...

You're welcome, I hope my small input was of use. I value Dominic's thoughts because he has shedloads of experience here and knows the market, and has probably done the math(s) for you. However, in my opinion if you wanted to 'do Poland', it's a stonking (terrific)) offer that they've made. They must rate you very highly. If it were me, I'd rather be appreciated in Poland for good money than just another dude in another country for better money. Poland's a special place, Katowice almost certainly has plenty of churches if you are religious, and as a country it's rich in history (of course, some of it hideous and scarring but much of it richly interesting and beyond average).

I can tell you this, I sure wish I'd continued my career in SCO-Linux admin back in the 90s. I'd not be struggling as I am now here!

We're all made up of optimists and pessimists in life. Hence the bulls & bears of the stock market and every other commodities or asset trading environment. Each of these would claim to be the realist. The reality is, to some extent, what you make of it. Whether here or somewhere else, I'm sure we all wish you well.

(Btw, the summers here are very hot! Hotter than typical for the UK for sure.)
smurf 39 | 1,981
27 Apr 2014 #26
Do we have churches in katowice..?

Mostly they are Catholic Churches, there are a handful of Protestant churches too.

Can somebody help me to explain about these taxes.?

You won't really need to worry about it, your employer will pay your taxes and your social & health insurance (ZUS). However, I recommend that you set up additional health insurance for your family if you do decide to move here.

and will I be getting any benefits out it..?

Not really, Poland doesn't give any child allowance like in Western European countries, but you health care will be 'free' as in your monthly Zus contributions that come out of your wages will pay for it....however, the situation won't be the same for your wife.

I recommend getting in touch with the Indian embassy in Warsaw, they would be in a better position than any of us here to answer your specific questions.

Any idea on how much should it cost for my kid schooling..? just three years old...

There's at least one school that takes international students:
en.invest.katowice.eu/people/28/34/the_international_school.html

It generally has a good opinion, but it's not cheap I think it's something like a few thousand per semester, but I'm not sure. Contact them through the site and ask for a price.

As has been pointed out, you'll be on a good wage for Poland, but you can earn higher in other countries.
Please keep in mind too what Dom wrote about racism. Katowice is incredibly racist, you will be stared at and you may be given abuse on the street by idiotic scum. There have been a few incidents of Indian medical students being beaten up by the local football hooligans. However, the younger generation are far more open to foreigners, older people less so. The football hooligans are scum, usually they just fight among themselves, but an English friend of mine was beaten one night because a hooligan wanted him to pay for his kebab in a fast food place!

Kato in general is a safe place though, I spoke to a judge recently, he said that there's usually only one serious crime every 3 days (murder/rape etc. and they are usually committed by alcoholic/drug abusers on other alcoholics/drug abusers) so it's far lower than the European standard. Dublin for example, where I used to live, has 1 murder per day on average. Kato doesn't have much of an issue with drugs though, it used to but the Police have forced the alcos and junkies out of the city centre.

Dom also wrote that it may be difficult for your wife to find work (if she chooses to work) it's true she'll need to jump hoops to find work, but like I said contact the embassy and they'll be able to give you proper info.

There's a small Indian community living here though, a couple of guys have set up a small restaurant, the food is quite good:
buddha.info.pl/restaurant/katowice/index.php

and there's a small shop on the north of the city that sells food and spices imported from India.....although to be honest it's a few years since I was there, but I think it's still open.

There are a few other threads on Katowice on this forum, have a search for them and you'll find more info.

Best of luck making your decision.
Monitor 14 | 1,820
27 Apr 2014 #27
but you health care will be 'free' as in your monthly Zus contributions that come out of your wages will pay for it....however, the situation won't be the same for your wife.

I think that unemployed wife will be automatically insured through the husband for free.

Ghilli:Any idea on how much should it cost for my kid schooling..? just three years old...

If you don't mind sending your kid to Polish public school, then It should be free or nearly free. And according to PISA basic education in Poland belongs to the top in the world. But then he will be learning in Polish. Primary school starts from 6 years old. Before it's kindergarten and sometimes there is not enough places for all children in public kindergartens. Parents have to pay for private ones. I don't know how it looks in Katowice. If you have to pay, then private kindergarten with Polish language will be cheaper than with English.
InWroclaw 89 | 1,914
27 Apr 2014 #28
only one serious crime every 3 days (murder/rape etc. and

A mere trifle. What's not to like.

Katowice is incredibly racist, you will be stared at and you may be given abuse on the street by idiotic scum.

Sounds like some parts of Hertfordshire. Having been to Kat, can't say I noticed any particularly dodgy elements. People seemed friendlier than here actually, although I am not of dark skinned appearance (am more of unappealing white pasty appearance)
smurf 39 | 1,981
27 Apr 2014 #29
Parents have to pay for private ones. I don't know how it looks in Katowice.

Yea, it's the same here.

What's not to like.

Ah yea, it's not bad.

Sounds like some parts of Hertfordshire

Could be, I dunno, I'd stuggle to point out Hertfordshire on the map tbh, actually, I'd more than struggle, I've no idea :P

Having been to Kat, can't say I noticed any particularly dodgy elements

City centre is fine, plenty of suburbs that I wouldn't set foot in, but it's the same all over the world I suppose.
Jardinero 1 | 405
27 Apr 2014 #30
I don't want to dwell on this topic longer that necessary, but is it just me or is Dom's view overly pessimistic? Here's why I think so:

- First of all, it's not as if the OP has got any of those offers from 'richer' WEU countries, so until he has that problem, saying that he could make 'x' more elsewhere remains strictly a hypothetical exercise. The salary on offer here seems well above both the national average and the industry in PL, no questions about that. He can move on to greener pastures form there whenever he wishes.

- Despite all the shortcomings, technical education in PL, and especially in IT, still does carry positive connotation in EU, so Polish IT alumni do tend have a good reputation among those 'in the know' wherever. I've recently spoken to an Indian IT and economics alumni who studied in both India and PL and it was his strong conviction that the quality/level was definitely higher in PL. I can also speak for alumni of the medical programmes (taught both in English and Polish) who are now successfully practising medicine in the US, Canada, UK.

- Let's take a hypothetical situation: you are a potential WEU employer in the IT sector who has two candidates with nearly identical qualifications, except one is living and working in India, and the other one is in the EU. Which one would they rather make an offer? And which one would you say has more leverage when it came down to negotiating a higher salary?

Just some points to consider. Obviously PL has a long way ahead in order to catch up to the salary levels of WEU (the average is currently at about... 2/3 of EU?), and there exist greener pastures elsewhere, but to automatically discard such offer in the absence of any others would be a bit harsh to say the least.


Home / Work / Job offer from IT Giant in Katowice, Poland (UNIX specialist). Information on tax and rental costs needed.
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