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What is a 'HND' Business qualification in Poland?


NR2012
2 Jan 2012  #1
Can anyone tell me what this qualification is and if it is worth something?

We do not have such a thing in Poland
Wroclaw 44 | 5,388
2 Jan 2012  #2
long time since my onc, hnc days. if it's similar then it would be like the second or third year of a degree.

wait for other replies though.

edit: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Higher_National_Diploma
pam
3 Jan 2012  #3
studying for an hnd takes 2 years. once qualified, you have the equivalent of a uni student who is about halfway through their degree. hope this helps
JonnyM 11 | 2,621
3 Jan 2012  #4
It's usually more practically focused. There is often an element of work experience. An HND in business and finance used to include a lot of practical accounting work, and a large mathematical element An HNC is intended for part time study. Both are respected qualifications, equal to a Polish Licencjat.
Harry
3 Jan 2012  #5
Both are respected qualifications, equal to a Polish Licencjat.

Equal to but not the same as. A Polish Licencjat would be a Cert.HE (as it is academic while the HND is far more vocational).

studying for an hnd takes 2 years. once qualified, you have the equivalent of a uni student who is about halfway through their degree.

Two years if it's part-time, one if full-time. It generally gives access to the second year of university rather than the third but often enables the holder to skip the placement year.
sa11y 5 | 331
3 Jan 2012  #6
Both are respected qualifications, equal to a Polish Licencjat

No - they are not exactly equal. Licencjat is a 3 year degree programme (equal to Bachelors degree).
HNC is quual to 1st year and HND is equal to 2 year programme. This would be something on a level of "Szkola Pomaturalna" - but I'm not sure if those exist any more.

Generally HND gives access to final 3rd year in University (Masters or Bachelors degree programmes).
Harry
3 Jan 2012  #7
Licencjat is a 3 year degree programme (equal to Bachelors degree).

No, a Licencjat is most certainly not equal to a BA. A Licencjat can be done every other weekend in the three years following the end of school. In the UK that amount of work after the end of school will get you something called "A levels".

Generally HND gives access to final 3rd year in University (Masters or Bachelors degree programmes).

An HND gives access to the final year of an MA program? Not in the UK it doesn't.
JonnyM 11 | 2,621
3 Jan 2012  #8
No, a Licencjat is most certainly not equal to a BA.

Exactly. An HND (which is a very specific competence based qualification - much more about useful practice than useless theory) involves between 1500 and 1800 hours of classroom time, twice weekly essays on top of daily homework tasks and a long dissertation. Most are Sandwich courses. If anything it is a superior course than a Polish licencjat - it is certainly more challenging and practical.

Many institutions have replaced HND with BA or BSc now, though they are still valued and confer postnominal letters.
sa11y 5 | 331
3 Jan 2012  #9
In the UK that amount of work after the end of school will get you something called "A levels"

"A" levels is a college education which is somehow similar to matura (matric). You need this to enter degree education.
You do licencjat after "matura" over 3 years also in territary degree courses (licencjat is not only done over weekend).
I have Licencjat in Economics from Poland which was translated as Bachelors of Commerce by sworn translator and was sufficient as base for MBA (for which degree is needed, which is Bachelors).

It was also sufficient for my company to accept me on managerial position for which they also required degree education.
So based on those facts I conclude that Licencjat is equal to Bachelors.
Generally Bachelors is 3 years after matriculation, so is Licencjat.
You can also do Bachelor's degree over weekend or on-line, you just have to work hard.
The problem is that the education system in Poland is not exactly the same as the British based, so it's often up to the institution themselves to recognize or reject someones diploma/certificate - but in general, if you have Licencjat you will only have to do final year for Master's course in UK institution (provided that profile of the course matches) - same as if you had Bachelors.
JonnyM 11 | 2,621
3 Jan 2012  #10
translated as Bachelors of Commerce by sworn translator

This doesn't mean it actually is equal. Then again, my BA was attested by a sworn translator in PL as a Magister.

So based on those facts I conclude that Licencjat is equal to Bachelors.

It isn't. Many countries have both Licentiate degrees and Bachelors' degrees. Licentiate is lower.

You can also do Bachelor's degree over weekend or on-line, you just have to work hard.

'Online' only are not usually accredited by anything respectable. Weekends only would take a hell of a long time.

The problem is that the education system in Poland is not exactly the same as the British based

The Bologna Process is currently creating a table of equivalence, Europe-wide.
sa11y 5 | 331
3 Jan 2012  #11
An HND gives access to the final year of an MA program? Not in the UK it doesn't

In some institutions it does - if they follow the same program. For example Liverpool University.

Bologna Process is currently creating a table of equivalence, Europe-wide.

Yes - and from this link:
"The Polish equivalent of a Bachelor of Arts degree or Bachelor of Science degree (given by a university) is called licencjat, while in a technical university (politechnika) one gets the title of Engineer (inżynier). Magister is the Polish equivalent of Master's degree. Doktor is the Polish equivalent of a doctoral degree (PhD)."

Which now keeps me wondering... where did the BCom came from?
Harry
3 Jan 2012  #12
"A" levels is a college education which is somehow similar to matura (matric).

No it isn't. Trust me: I've taught both.

You need this to enter degree education.

No you do not: a friend of mine recently completed his PhD and didn't have even an O Level to his name before that.

I have Licencjat in Economics from Poland which was translated as Bachelors of Commerce by sworn translator

Since when were sworn translators experts in the relative merits of educational qualifications?

MBA (for which degree is needed, which is Bachelors).

A first degree is not needed to do an MBA.

Generally Bachelors is 3 years after matriculation, so is Licencjat.

Three years plus two foundation years following 12 years of school. A magister is five years following 12 years of school (although a magister can be done in only four years). BTW, a lot of BAs in the UK are four-year courses.

You can also do Bachelor's degree over weekend or on-line, you just have to work hard.

Of course you can: it takes twice as long. The largest provider of part-time degrees in the UK is the Open University: they estimate degree will take six years (post A-levels) to complete when one works part-time and studies part-time. In Poland I know plenty of people who work full-time and still got their magister in five years.

The Bologna Process is currently creating a table of equivalence, Europe-wide.

That is going to be crunch time for Polish universities: how can they fit their hugely profitable extra-mural classes into the Bologna framework? Can they really get away with claiming that their extra-mural students spend an average of 38 hours per week on their studies while still holding down full-time jobs and having a life?
JonnyM 11 | 2,621
3 Jan 2012  #13
Yes - and from this link:

Wait until the process is finished. Polish licentiates are not equal to UK Bachelors' degrees.

A first degree is not needed to do an MBA.

Exactly, and MBAs (unless they're from top-ranked courses) aren't always up to much.

That is going to be crunch time for Polish universities: how can they fit their hugely profitable extra-mural classes into the Bologna framework?

They are sh1tting themselves. There have been dodgy threads here about it. Some of those part-time 'magister degrees' (I won't call them Masters') aren't worth the paper they're printed on.
sa11y 5 | 331
3 Jan 2012  #14
Three years plus two foundation years following 12 years of school.

Yes - exactly, you start licencjat after 12 years of schooling (same as Bachelors).

As for Bologna Process - this is new to me, but I'm glad to see this. I completely agree that there is too many mickey-mouse degrees around.

And you DO need a degree for MBA (at least a reputable one) - if you are not over 40 and don't have years of managerial experience in top level management - the once that don't request this are as mickey-mouse as some licencjat courses around.
Harry
3 Jan 2012  #15
Exactly, and MBAs (unless they're from top-ranked courses) aren't always up to much.

Even the top-ranked courses are usually happy to take people who don't have a first degree.

Some of those part-time 'magister degrees' (I won't call them Masters') aren't worth the paper they're printed on.

Exactly. I feel sorry for the poor sods who have worked hard to get their Magister and then find that somebody who has done maybe a quarter of the work that they have done apparently has an identical qualification.
JonnyM 11 | 2,621
3 Jan 2012  #16
As for Bologna Process - this is new to me, but I'm glad to see this. I completely agree that there is too many mickey-mouse degrees around.

In Poland and UK both. My job now is writing exams and sometimes I want to weep at the dumbing down.

And you DO need a degree for MBA (at least a reputable one)

That's true. I'm more familiar with the other type for middle-managers who don't necessarily have degrees but have a lot of experience.
Harry
3 Jan 2012  #17
exactly, you start licencjat after 12 years of schooling (same as Bachelors).

No: a BA is started after 12 years of schooling followed by two years of college. Poles almost always forget about those two years.

the once that don't request this are as mickey-mouse as some licencjat courses around.

Er, Kingston's MBA is fairly well thought of:

We also consider applications from individuals with considerable management experience but no first degree.

kingston.ac.uk/postgraduate-course/master-business-administration-mba/entry-requirements.html
sa11y 5 | 331
3 Jan 2012  #18
considerable management experience

Yes - some institutions actually quantify this, usually over 35-40 (depends, but generally this type of age) and over 7 years in managerial position - subject to interview :) believe me, went through many of the "specifications" as I wasn't sure if my Licencjat would be accepted...

12 years of schooling followed by two years of college

That's because:
1) we start school at 7
2) Brits start school at 5
therefore...
1) they do they GCSE when 17, but they are actually lower level than Matura
2) only A levels (or Foundation) is considered good enough for Uni entry - that's why A-levels are often considered equal to Matura.
The reality is - that this is all complicated and it does depend on the level of institution. Hopefully Bologna Process will put some clarity to this.
Harry
3 Jan 2012  #19
they do they GCSE when 17, but they are actually lower level than Matura

No they are not done then and no they are not a lower level. Again, I have taught both.

Hopefully Bologna Process will put some clarity to this.

I wouldn't put any money on that. Especially not in Poland, where universities are desperate for the Magister to be classified as a second cycle qualification (which means 270 to 360 ECTS credits, with one ECTS being equal to 25 to 30 hours' work) but still retain the extra-mural studies that make them so much cash.
rozumiemnic 8 | 3,671
3 Jan 2012  #20
they do they GCSE when 17, but they are actually lower level than Matura

no, they are done at 15 or 16, and lead onto A levels which are ostensibly Matura level.
JonnyM 11 | 2,621
3 Jan 2012  #21
therefore...
1) they do they GCSE when 17, but they are actually lower level than Matura

This doesn't actually make sense.

1) they do they GCSE when 17, but they are actually lower level than Matura

GCSE, as Rozumiemnic says, are done at 15 or 16. Occasionally 14.

only A levels (or Foundation) is considered good enough for Uni entry - that's why A-levels are often considered equal to Matura.

A Levels are much higher than Matura, which is not especially respected.
sa11y 5 | 331
3 Jan 2012  #22
A Levels are much higher than Matura, which is not especially respected.

They may be in certain aspects - but as Matura they are the entry level to University. In this particular aspect they are equal.

GCSE... Ok, maybe in South Africa the educational system is a bit old an they are done later... What I was saying is that this is not enough to enter University, hence additional education is required (A-levels or Foundation).

Bottom line is that there are fundamental differences in the educational system across the world and it's not easy to find equivalent of every single thing without generalisation, such as MA = Magister, BA = Licencjat etc.

An as with every generalisation there will be 100's of examples where the given example is irrelevant because of the education level of the institution, schooling age, years spent at school or similar.

And the problem is that because of lack of some worldwide institution which would regulate this this is going to get worse - because people want "the paper" (degree, MBA, you name it...). Which now creates the response from the educational market which will be eager to provide "the paper". As more of the institutions are willing to provide it, the cost goes down and so does the standard... Unfortunately. So what's next? I saw a very interesting movie (movie not so good, but interesting concept) a while ago called "Idiocracy" - is this the way we are heading?
JonnyM 11 | 2,621
3 Jan 2012  #23
They may be in certain aspects

In every aspect. Though both qualifications are being degraded, year on year.

generalisation, such as MA = Magister, BA = Licencjat etc

A huge generalisation and they are simply not the same. This been discussed here ad nauseam.

"Idiocracy" - is this the way we are heading?

It looks that way.
Harry
3 Jan 2012  #24
but as Matura they are the entry level to University. In this particular aspect they are equal.

Without GCSEs, one does not get accepted to college to do A levels. And I can assure you that the first year of a Polish university is far from being the same as the first year of English university but is very close to the first year of A levels.

"Idiocracy" - is this the way we are heading?

I'd say that we are heading more towards the complete commercialisation of education, where money is far far more important than educational standards. Just speak to people who teach at private universities and ask them about failing students!
sa11y 5 | 331
3 Jan 2012  #25
And I can assure you that the first year of a Polish university is far from being the same as the first year of English university

I rest my case - I haven't studied in UK. But I still think it depends on institution. There are some pretty good Unis in Poland and some pretty crappy in UK...

Yeah - I understand what you are saying about comercialisation... Looks like now you will need a degree (the commercial one of course...) to choose a degree... I'm surprised no-one came up with it yet - a niche market to explore ;)
teflcat 5 | 1,032
3 Jan 2012  #26
Though both qualifications are being degraded, year on year

I've been out of the UK education loop for decades, so perhaps you can tell me what my A grade A levels in English Language and Literature are worth now that these days they have A levels with stars.
time means 5 | 1,310
3 Jan 2012  #27
I rest my case

I lost my case is probably more apt.
rozumiemnic 8 | 3,671
3 Jan 2012  #28
perhaps you can tell me what my A grade A levels in English Language and Literature are worth now

oooh a masters at least.
sa11y 5 | 331
3 Jan 2012  #30
I lost my case is probably more ap

Nope - rest is good for me. Not convinced.


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