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Is 6500PLN/month enough for 2 people from India to live on in Wroclaw?


SHin 1 | 3
12 Feb 2014 #1
Hello

I have been offered a job in Wroclaw for 6500PLN/Month, would like to know if this is average salary and enough for 2 persons, I will moving with my wife, I am from India, I have read in forums can lead a modest life but would be great if more inputs are given.

For eg:
1. 6500 how will be netto after deductions of tax and Zus
2. How much I can end of each month, if I look at normal life, with eating out on weekends and may be visit someplace once a month. looking forward for replies.

Thanks in advance.

How much I can end of each month, if I look at normal life, with eating out on weekends and may be visit someplace once a month. looking forward for replies.

How much can I save end of each month, if I look at normal life, with eating out on weekends and may be visit someplace once a month. looking forward for replies.
Monitor 14 | 1,820
12 Feb 2014 #2
According to: infor.pl/kalkulatory/brutto_netto.html#wynikiform - it's 4500zł net. You will have to live sparingly. 2000 for apartment, 1000 for food, 200 for transportation and only 1300 is left for savings, unexpected expenditures and pleasure.
smurf 39 | 1,981
12 Feb 2014 #3
You will struggle on that money for 2 people, you will have to live frugally and you probably won't get much enjoyment out of living just on the breadline.

Your partner needs to get a job that pays between 2500-3000 to lift up your living standard a bit.
TaiCat 1 | 30
12 Feb 2014 #4
6500 it's very good, enough to have more fun if you rent cheaper apartment.
InWroclaw 89 | 1,914
12 Feb 2014 #5
Be sure to negotiate the rental and the agency commission 'prowisja' when you rent something.
Some agencies charge 0zl to tenants.

When I rented, I was refused many times when I made offers. However, if you persist, you'll find landlords who will reduce by 10 or 20%. 1600 down to 1300 in one case, 1300 down to 950 in another, are my average negs (my experience).

Beware that some agents or landlords don't want to deal with non-Polish speakers or anyone asking for a written agreement.
Always get a written one. Always negotiate unless it's already cheap. Remember, they need your money, and be prepared to walk away if they say nie.

But also be aware that some landlords and agents just won't want to rent to a non Pole for whatever reason, perhaps insecurity about owing money or causing damage or whatever it is. Please ignore anyone who posts after me and says anything contrary to this information -- some of them are landlords and other vested interests and won't give it to you straight. I have real experience on the ground and am giving it to you straight. Any doubts about anything at all, get free but qualified legal advice in the city centre (once a week, big queue, free, near Rynek).
Harry
12 Feb 2014 #6
a job in Wroclaw for 6500PLN/Month, would like to know if this is average salary and enough for 2 persons

It's above average and is enough for two people to live on but not in any luxury.

2000 for apartment, 1000 for food, 200 for transportation and only 1300 is left

I'd have thought that if he looks hard, he can find a decent-ish two room flat in a reasonable area for more like 1,500zl.

Your partner needs to get a job that pays between 2500-3000 to lift up your living standard a bit.

And there's his problem. While 6500zl per month is above average, in the average Polish couple both people work: his wife will need a work permit in order to work and so will find it very very difficult to get a job.

Be sure to negotiate the rental and the agency commission 'prowisja' when you rent something.

Also remember that while agency fees can be reduced by 20% by paying in cash, both rent and deposit must always and only be paid via bank transfers.
Monitor 14 | 1,820
12 Feb 2014 #7
his wife will need a work permit in order to work and so will find it very very difficult to get a job.

Doesn't she get it automatically as a spouse of the person possessing such permit?
Maybe 12 | 409
12 Feb 2014 #8
4500zl netto

Apartment from 1000-2000zl pcm depending on location
Bills including ground rent anything from 400-1000zl pcm
Food for 2 people 800-1200zl a month depending on what you buy and where you shop

Travel. How are you going to commute to work?
Do you intend to run a car?

Clothes.
Entertainment.
Savings.
Medical treatment.

These all clock up the money.

For two people a comfortable life in Poland IMO costs around minimum around 8000zl netto a month.
Harry
12 Feb 2014 #9
Doesn't she get it automatically as a spouse of the person possessing such permit?

I'm pretty sure that she doesn't. Apart from certain limited professions (and EU citizens), the only people who don't need work permits are the spouses of Polish and other EU citizens.
sobieski 107 | 2,128
12 Feb 2014 #10
Exactly. Work permits are person-connected and give no right for family members to work.
Btw 6500 PLN should be enough to live decently.

You will struggle on that money for 2 people, you will have to live frugally and you probably won't get much enjoyment out of living just on the breadline.

I do not know where you live, but 6500 net is not bad at all. Most family incomes here are below that line
smurf 39 | 1,981
12 Feb 2014 #11
Yes you do ;)

6500 is a good salary for one person, but shared over 2 it's pretty bad, that's only 3250 each. That's pretty crap.
I was on far less when I moved here, but living was a struggle, if the OP wants to have a better standard of living then I strongly suggest that you sort out a work permit for your missus.

InW also gives some sound advice, some people will not want to rent to you coz you're a foreigner. Plus Poland is still pretty racist and isn't as open to non-whites as much as other Western and Central European countries. The streets aren't violent or anything like that but I've seen people make monkey noise at black people on the street.

The langauge barrier will be a big problem. Polish is an incredibly difficult language. You will be working so you may make some English speaking friends from work, but if your wife can't get a work permit, she's going to feel very isolated very quickly. And we all know mate, if your missus ain't happy then the sh!t hits the fan pretty quickly.

For two people a comfortable life in Poland IMO costs around minimum around 8000zl netto a month.

Minimum, especially if you're going to be travelling by car, or renting in the city centre or have any aspirations of saving some money and taking it back to India.
DominicB - | 2,709
13 Feb 2014 #12
6500 is a good salary for one person, but shared over 2 it's pretty bad, that's only 3250 each. That's pretty crap.

I agree, 6500 PLN brutto isn't particularly attractive, especially if the OP has aspirations of saving up a significant amount of money. He and his wife would have to live very, very frugally to save up anything resembling a rainy day fund, and it's highly unlikely that she will be able to work. Safest to assume that she will not.

I'd have thought that if he looks hard, he can find a decent-ish two room flat in a reasonable area for more like 1,500zl.

Not with czynsz and utilities, he won't. It's about 2000 PLN for a basic one-bedroom apartment, all fees and bills included except telephone, internet and transit ticket. You're not going to find much cheaper than that unless you go out quite far from the center or live in substandard housing.

If he uses an estate agent to find the apartment, that will cost him about 1500 PLN.

It might be better finance-wise if he left the wife in India and came alone. Otherwise, it's not going to be a particularly comfortable life. Remember that foreigners can't live as cheaply as Poles do until they learn the language, or at least the ropes, and develop a circle of friends.
Maybe 12 | 409
13 Feb 2014 #13
Remember that foreigners can't live as cheaply as Poles do until they learn the language, or at least the ropes, and develop a circle of friends.

Spot on.
DominicB - | 2,709
13 Feb 2014 #14
You'd be surprised how many young workers in the cities are "słoikarze", that is, living off jars of food they bring back to the city after spending the weekend in the village with mom and dad. Fortunately, they're a good source of high-quality wędliny!
OP SHin 1 | 3
13 Feb 2014 #15
Hi

Thanks for inputs,which is the best way I can look for apartment, looking at mid size apt good enough for 2 as of now. Any website you can suggest where I can do some pre study.

@All: Thanks for good inputs

I think my wife will not be working initially, also its good if she joins me later may be after 6 months, so its better.

Also not looking at significant savings, but good enough to add each month towards rainy days. is 1000 Pln possible?

also, 2000PLN for apartment is including rent and utilities.
so its,

2000 : Accommodations
700 : Groceries
200:Entertainment
55+100: Transport & Internet

I am missing anything? Any suggestions?

Also which Area in Wroclaw is good to lookout for apartments, I am willing to travel more by public bus, if place is good and accommodation is cheaper
Monitor 14 | 1,820
13 Feb 2014 #16
Rent some room for 1 month online. Then when you come ask polish coworkers to help finding you apartment. Offer him some compensation for the taken time. It will be better spend money than for agency. Here you can browse advertisements: gumtree.pl/fp-domy-i-mieszkania-do-wynajecia/wroclaw/c 9008l3200114?isSearchForm=true

(I think that prices there don't include maintenance fee ("czynsz") and utilities)
Harry
13 Feb 2014 #17
Not with czynsz and utilities, he won't. It's about 2000 PLN for a basic one-bedroom apartment, all fees and bills included except telephone, internet and transit ticket.

I do find that rather hard to believe. Here in Warsaw I have one mate who lives 500 metres north-west of the palace of culture in a very acceptable 40 sqm flat who pays 1,800zl for everything other than telephone. Another friend lives closer to the palace and pays less but that's a 'mates' rates' price. Another friend rents a perfectly acceptable 48 sqm flat three tram stops (i.e. one mile) north of the central station for 2,000zl plus telephone (although the internet is apparently not very quick and the cable package limited). And yet another friend rents a 50-sqm flat with an 85-sqm terrace in a brand new building (or at least it was when she moved in a couple of years ago) and pays 2,000zl plus internet and phone. All those flats came fully furnished. I'd be very surprised if those prices really could not be beaten in a secondary city.

I think my wife will not be working initially, also its good if she joins me later may be after 6 months, so its better.

I don't think your wife is going to be working at all. Her chances of finding an employer who is willing to go through the hassle of getting her a work permit are, at best, exceedingly slim.

700 : Groceries

I hope you don't like eating a lot of meat: on that budget you won't be.

200:Entertainment

That really is not a lot of entertainment. A cinema ticket is going to be 20zl or more. A pizza each in a mid-range pizza place and a glass of wine each about 70zl. Two coffee and a single slice of cake in a coffeeshop about 35zl. A Polish beer and a glass of wine in a mid-range bar about 25zl. A taxi two miles after ten in the evening 20zl.

55+100: Transport & Internet

From memory a monthly ticket for Wroclaw public transport is about 100zl, plus another 100zl for your wife.
maniak677 1 | 14
13 Feb 2014 #18
also, 2000PLN for apartment is including rent and utilities.so its

ok

This really will give a half decent living in Wroclaw. But it all depends on what you're used to really. 2000 pln for an aparment in Wroclaw is good and if around 40- 50m2 it's OK and then you will find apartments in the top half of the market mainly for professionals e.g. nieruchomosci.pl/mieszkanie,nil1904716122 - 1800pln - It's in the centre in the old town - an area Poles will see as exclusive. It's definitely NOT basic. If you live further out rents will be cheaper. Have a search - expectations for flats are very subjective - nieruchomosci.pl.
InWroclaw 89 | 1,914
13 Feb 2014 #19
This really will give a half decent living in Wroclaw.

Been available since mid December hasn't it? Do you not advise making an offer, say 1400 on a 6-month contract and minimum 2 months' notice if the landlord wants the flat back after that and 2 months' notice if the tenant wants to terminate?
whatthehell
13 Feb 2014 #20
Of course it is. Dude, it's my dream to ever land a job like this and I'm a pole. Entry level positions are around 1300-1400zł, you have it better than around 90% of people I know.
DominicB - | 2,709
13 Feb 2014 #21
I'd be very surprised if those prices really could not be beaten in a secondary city.

Housing prices in Wrocław are not appreciably cheaper than in Warsaw, if at all. EVERYBODY has a friend who got a real deal. Best not to count on it, though, especially if you're fresh off the plane with no useful contacts. Apparently, these companies do not offer any assistance with finding housing. If you've got to do it on your own, in a hurry, with zero knowledge of the local language and no one to help you, it's going to cost more.
OP SHin 1 | 3
14 Feb 2014 #22
Thanks all, so I safely assume this is possible and consider going ahead with formalities, I have been informed Monday I will have to submit some list of documents so will wait.

So as of now, my wife will not come with me, I will come alone and see things how it goes.

only worry for me is my wife, we both are working here(both in IT), so schedule is like morning 8 go to office and come back by 10 PM, normal schedule for weekday, weekend eat out and visit some place.

So if she comes along and since she isnt working, I dont know , it will be very different for her and there will one person earning, so thats my main concern,if she will like it or not, place is beautiful then back home but language barrier things can be difficult.

May be later she try to find some job if possible.

Thanks
Pai
maniak677 1 | 14
14 Feb 2014 #23
Housing prices in Wrocław are not appreciably cheaper than in Warsaw, if at all.

House prices are cheaper in Wroclaw than in Warsaw. Just look like for like - Old Town in Wroclaw v Old Town in Warsaw you will find prices at least around 20% cheaper.

wyborcza.biz/finanse/1,105684,14216180,Najdrozsze_mieszkan ia_na_wynajem_sa_w_Warszawie_i.html - comparison between warsaw and other cities.

You can look at other places e.g. gumtree and get direct contact with a landlord for cheaper deals. You could hire a student to help you with language it may cost you a couple of hundred zloty to sort out. There are plenty of private landlords in Wroclaw and some will be keen to bypass agency fees also.
Monitor 14 | 1,820
14 Feb 2014 #24
only worry for me is my wife, we both are working here(both in IT), so schedule is like morning 8 go to office and come back by 10 PM, normal schedule for weekday, weekend eat out and visit some place.

In Wrocław is possible, that you will commute 30min to work and work 9 - 17, so leave 8:30am and back 5:30pm. That would give you much more time for each other than in India. Also if your wife is programmer, then probably she will find job too.
Harry
14 Feb 2014 #25
EVERYBODY has a friend who got a real deal.

Yes, that's why I didn't give the price paid by the friend of mine who pays "a 'mates' rates' price. The other three are paying what is pretty much market price (or at least the lower end of the market price).

Best not to count on it, though, especially if you're fresh off the plane with no useful contacts.

All three of the people I posted about were new to town and found those places within a week.

only worry for me is my wife, we both are working here(both in IT), so schedule is like morning 8 go to office and come back by 10 PM

Polish offices are usually nine to five, have you got any reason to think that you'll be working 13-hour days in the job in Wroclaw? If so, 6,500zl is too low.

weekend eat out and visit some place.

If your entertainment budget is 200zl per month, you will not be able to eat out every weekend. You could very easily spend 200zl per head on a three-course meal plus wine in Wroclaw.

May be later she try to find some job if possible.

I'm really not sure how possible that would be. You have to think why a Polish company would want to hire her (and go through all the hassle of employing her) when they can just hire somebody from the EU.
OP SHin 1 | 3
14 Feb 2014 #26
I agree, i dont know, may be something part time to keep her busy, because new place+ no language + no work can be too much for her as she is work loving person

Polish offices are usually nine to five, have you got any reason to think that you'll be working 13-hour days in the job in Wroclaw? If so, 6,500zl is too low.

Actually I work CET time,so my time is 12 to 21 IST, but need to leave by 10.30(traffic is normal here, 1hr min for 15km) so 9 to 5 is real deal.

If your entertainment budget is 200zl per month, you will not be able to eat out every weekend. You could very easily spend 200zl per head on a three-course meal plus wine in Wroclaw.

Eat out for me means normal local Deli, rarely high class restaurant and definitely no wine,she hates to drink alcohol, so can I say 500PLN for normal sight seeing around or outside town and regular food at normal place to eat?

Also if your wife is programmer, then probably she will find job too.

Yes she is Flash/web developer
Thanks
DominicB - | 2,709
15 Feb 2014 #27
Monitor:
Also if your wife is programmer, then probably she will find job too.

Her best, and probably only, chance to land a job in Poland is with her husband's company, and that is best arranged BEFORE they move to Poland. The chances of finding work for another company after she arrives are remote. She would be competing with Poles and other EU nationals. Very few employers would be willing to go through the hassle of hiring a non-EU citizen unless she has some serious qualifications and experience that are desperately sought after on the Polish job market, like SAP, HBase or high-level quantitative analysis skills, for example. "Ordinary" IT skills will probably not be enough. If she does have super-duper qualifications and experience, then I would question the rationale of moving to Poland at all in the first place, as she would be able to find higher-paying work elsewhere. Experienced SAP consultants make only $30 to $50 thousand a year in Poland, which is a great salary for Poland, but a lousy one on the global SAP market.

So if she comes along and since she isnt working, I dont know , it will be very different for her and there will one person earning, so thats my main concern,if she will like it or not, place is beautiful then back home but language barrier things can be difficult.

You right to feel concerned, It can be incredibly boring for her. To the point where it would put a strain on your relationship. I once taught English to the Swiss wife of a bank executive here in Wrocław, and she was bored out of her gourd because she didn't speak Polish, English or even proper German, so she could not make other friends. She lasted four months before going back to Switzerland. Also had a Korean student in the same situation because she didn't speak good English, and she didn't fit in with the local Korean ex-pat community, which is very cliquish and downright cruel to people who are not "in". In both cases, I was their only social contact whatsoever.

I assume your wife speaks English, so things won't be as desperate for her, but it will still be hard for her to fill her time with interesting activities with interesting people unless she is very outgoing, enterprising and adventurous. If she's shy or stand-offish, life will be very lonely indeed.

Unfortunately, I don't know much about the local Indian population. In any case, it's quite small, and there might not be many women like your wife to socialize with. I rarely see Indian ex-pat families in Wrocław.

However, when I was living in Chicago, I noticed that the wives of many of my Indian medical colleagues were horribly isolated and mal-adapted, and even arrogantly demonstrative of their unwillingness to assimilate or associate with the locals, even after many years of living in the States. It may be a good idea for her to occupy her time taking courses at the Wrocław Institute of Technology. Her chances of finding mental and social stimulation are higher there, and probably even better than in the workplace if she finds a job that doesn't pay very well. Most of the foreign ex-pat wives here in Poland are wives of high-level managers, administrators and executives, and they may not be very accepting of lowly employees.
Jaszek5 - | 4
16 Feb 2014 #28
You should move to the suburbs of Wroclaw and cut your rent in half. You can commute with public transportation. 6500 is more than enough. You can buy a flat outside of Wroclaw for 89000 zlty.
Maybe 12 | 409
16 Feb 2014 #29
It may be a good idea for her to occupy her time taking courses at the Wrocław Institute of Technology.

Studying is the most sensible of options for your wife, the obvious thing to study would be Polish. If your wife were to enrol in a Polish language course, aside from the obvious of learning the language, it would introduce her to other expats and would help create a social circle outside of just your work place, which would be healthy for both of you.

en.polish-world.pl

Just as an example and the first hit on google. The link is above.
Monitor 14 | 1,820
17 Feb 2014 #30
Yes she is Flash/web developer

I she's good and has few years experience, then I don't see a reason why she would not find a company willing to apply for her job permit. In the end people in Poland are used to deal with bureaucracy. Being there of course will help, because face to face interview will be possible. If not that, then she can always work online through some freelance portal.

Another option to occupy time for you wife is to do master studies, for example in Politechnika Wrocławska is Computer Engineering master course in English: dwm.pwr.wroc.pl/other_programmes/597/master_programmes_in_english.html. It's one of top IT faculties in Poland (at least the one with Polish as lecture language) and graduates get work permit automatically, so she will have much easier to find a job.

I agree, i dont know, may be something part time to keep her busy, because new place+ no language + no work can be too much for her as she is work loving person

She will have no work permit to work part time. No company would apply for permit for part time employee.


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