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Think you're Polish (and live in the USA)?


Harry
12 Jan 2011 #1
Here are some questions to assist those of you who think you might be Polish but live in the USA on a permanent basis
Do you have/need a USCIS Form I-551? Yes/No
Are you entitled to consular assistance for staff from a consulate of the Republic of Poland? Yes/No
Are you exempt from US military service? Yes/No
Are you barred from voting in US elections despite never having been convicted of a felony? Yes/No

If you answered No to any of the above questions, you are most likely American. If you answered No to all of the above questions, you are certainly American. Although you could be Polish-American

However, if you answered No to all of the above questions and you have declared, on oath, that you absolutely and entirely renounce and abjure all allegiance and fidelity to Poland, you are not Polish. Poles don't change sides or citizenships just because it is convenient: Poles would never turn their backs on Poland. Well, not real Poles anyway: for example, none of the 89,300 men who joined the western command Polish Army after serving in the Wehrmacht or Waffen SS were real Poles, they were just pretending to be Poles.
PennBoy 76 | 2,437
12 Jan 2011 #2
OMG!!!! So now you made a thread about this, this is really hurting you isn't it? you've got an obsession.
OP Harry
12 Jan 2011 #3
Don't get ideas above your station: there are a number of people here who have betrayed Poland in precisely the same way that you have.
Bzibzioh
12 Jan 2011 #4
OMG!!!! So now you made a thread about this, this is really hurting you isn't it? you've got an obsession.

Yeah, we should open a thread about expat Brits betraying Britain by leaving her. Should be fun :) Or is it exclusively Polish phenomenon to 'betray' by leaving?
OP Harry
12 Jan 2011 #5
Yeah, we should open a thread about expat Brits betraying Britain by leaving her. Should be fun :)

No, let's discuss it here, keep all the discussion in one place.

Personally I'm neither a Brit nor an expat but I'd say that one of the defining features of an expat is that they retain their original citizenship: if they don't do that, how can they be an expat?

Or is it exclusively Polish phenomenon to 'betray' by leaving?

It is not the leaving that is the betrayal: it is the deciding that one no longer wants to be Polish because being Polish is no longer what is best for one.
PennBoy 76 | 2,437
12 Jan 2011 #6
Or is it exclusively Polish phenomenon to 'betray' by leaving?

HAHA this kid's living in some Neverending Story
A J 4 | 1,088
12 Jan 2011 #7
Don't get ideas above your station: there are a number of people here who have betrayed Poland in precisely the same way that you have.

Oh please! Just wanting a different life elsewhere doesn't have anything to do with betraying anyone. (We're all stuck on the same planet, okay?)

:)
Bzibzioh
12 Jan 2011 #8
HAHA this kid's living in some Neverending Story

Yeah, and he wants to preach about nationality while he is confused about his own.
OP Harry
12 Jan 2011 #9
Just wanting a different life elsewhere doesn't have anything to do with betraying anyone.

I agree entirely. However it is perfectly possible to have a different life in a different place without taking up different citizenship. And let's face it: if one takes up different citizenship, one is saying that one no longer wants to be treated in the same way as people of one's original citizenship are treated.
PennBoy 76 | 2,437
12 Jan 2011 #10
We're all stuck on the same planet, okay?)

:)

I think we should extradite Harry to Mars, so that he wont pollute the planet with his genes.



OP Harry
12 Jan 2011 #11
So you mean that you can not even attempt to address the issues at hand and so instead make rather pathetic childish attempts at insults: how very much like the Boy you identify yourself as.
A J 4 | 1,088
12 Jan 2011 #12
I agree entirely.

Oh you do? It just didn't read that way, really..

However it is perfectly possible to have a different life in a different place without taking up different citizenship.

Not if you wish to socialise with people around you, or want to have certain rights in whichever country you wish to stay.

And let's face it: if one takes up different citizenship, one is saying that one no longer wants to be treated in the same way as people of one's original citizenship are treated.

Not really, no. The reason most people take up a different citizenship, is because they're usually happy where they are, and wish to participate just like everyone else around them. Do you have equal rights without citizenship? No you don't. So there's your reason. Why wouldn't they? I mean, if that's where they want to live..
PennBoy 76 | 2,437
12 Jan 2011 #13
Not if you wish to socialise with people around you, or want to have certain rights in whichever country you wish to stay.

Exactly living is a different country doesn't make one a traitor, if this is where i wanna stay i live and work with Americans i socialize with them, if i wanna be treated as an equal citizenship is the way to go. This country is my home now.
OP Harry
12 Jan 2011 #14
Not if you wish to socialise with people around you

You ask to see people's passports before you socialise with them? I personally have never been asked to show my passport before socialising with people.

want to have certain rights in whichever country you wish to stay.

Rights that are not available to people who are from one's original country? So one is saying that one no longer wants to be from one's original country: one instead wants to be from a different country. Doesn't that mean that one can not then claim that one wants to be from one's original country?

The reason most people take up a different citizenship, is because they're usually happy where they are, and wish to participate just like everyone else around them.

So you mean that they, to use the original example above, want to be American and do not want to be Polish.

Do you have equal rights without citizenship? No you don't. So there's your reason. Why wouldn't they?

Perhaps because they do not wish to have rights which are not available to them. Perhaps real Poles accept the lack of rights they have in foreign countries because those are simply the rights which Poles have in those countries and those people are Poles!

Exactly living is a different country doesn't make one a traitor

No, but swearing that one will perform military service against one's country does make one a traitor (unless one can claim that one is actually agreeing to perform such service in defense of one's country, which is not a claim that you can make).
Paulina 9 | 1,448
12 Jan 2011 #15
Perhaps because they do not wish to have rights which are not available to them. Perhaps real Poles accept the lack of rights they have in foreign countries because those are simply the rights which Poles have in those countries and those people are Poles!

Wha...?

No, but swearing that one will perform military service against one's country does make one a traitor (unless one can claim that one is actually agreeing to perform such service in defense of one's country, which is not a claim that you can make).

You're confusing patriotism with ethnicity.
PennBoy 76 | 2,437
12 Jan 2011 #16
No, but swearing that one will perform military service against one's country does make one a traitor

Dude shut up!! you're like a tick that doesn't wanna come off
Torq 28 | 2,761
12 Jan 2011 #17
For me, personally, being a citizen of a country is like being married to a woman. It has its
positive and negative sides, it is connected with certain privileges but also duties etc. etc.
In some cultures it is perfectly acceptable to have more than one wife (Muslims, Mormons),
but in our Latin civilization it is a general consensus that one wife is more than enough.
So, it's like that with citizenship (marriage) - if you love a country (a woman) you are its
citizen (husband) and you don't take up another country's citizenship (marry another woman.)

To cut the long story short - if some woman is richer than your wife, so you leave your
spouse, marry the rich hag and go live with her, then you should at least have enough
decency to admit it, instead of claiming that you're still a perfect husband of the poor girl
you so heartlessly abandoned.

*and NO - it doesn't matter that, every now and again, you send her some money
that the old hag gives you - you're still no better than a male prostitute*

A J 4 | 1,088
12 Jan 2011 #18
You ask to see people's passports before you socialise with them?

Nope!

I personally have never been asked to show my passport before socialising with people.

How about working somewhere? How about opening a bank account? How about setting up a shop? Etcetera! You think you can do that without citizenship? How??

Rights that are not available to people who are from one's original country? So one is saying that one no longer wants to be from one's original country: one instead wants to be from a different country. Doesn't that mean that one can not then claim that one wants to be from one's original country?

No, it means you wanted to live somewhere else, and are trying to adapt to your new surroundings just like anyone else would, because you have no intentions of going back to where you came from. (which has nothing to with betraying your country or being ashamed of your origins.)

So you mean that they, to use the original example above, want to be American and do not want to be Polish.

It's not about wanting to be a different nationality, or even a person. (Okay, well, maybe in some cases they'll feel free to do whatever they wouldn't do back home!) They obviously want to live there. Of course I can't speak for everyone, but I think the majority of them feels like an American citizen with a Polish identity, or background.

Perhaps because they do not wish to have rights which are not available to them. Perhaps real Poles accept the lack of rights they have in foreign countries because those are simply the rights which Poles have in those countries and those people are Poles!

You're just discussing for the sake of discussing, aren't you? I think you're mature enough to understand that you'll need to obtain citizenship in order to participate in society. Otherwise you're going to be a tourist, an illegal, or a temporary worker.

No, but swearing that one will perform military service against one's country does make one a traitor (unless one can claim that one is actually agreeing to perform such service in defense of one's country, which is not a claim that you can make).

Poland is a NATO member. Thank you. That'll be all.

:)
OP Harry
12 Jan 2011 #19
Wha...?

Being Polish means one has certain rights and does not have others. One has the right to work without a permit in Poland but one does not have the right to do so in the USA; as a Pole one has the obligation to get a permit to work in the USA. One can either accept or reject the rights (and obligations) that come with being Polish or one can reject them and take the rights (and obligations) that come with being of another nation.

Dude shut up!! you're like a tick that doesn't wanna come off

Another superb dissection of the points I raise. Have you considered joining the high school debating society?
Perhaps you would care to say something about the issues rather than making personal comments? Or can you say nothing about the issues because I'm entirely correct about this matter and you would be thus forced to entirely agree with me?
Wroclaw Boy
12 Jan 2011 #20
I think many Poles are ashamed of their heritage, sometimes such Poles get to another country and want nothing to do with Poland what so ever. They integrate and maybe visit Poland every so often but have absolutely no intentions of returning to live what so ever.
OP Harry
12 Jan 2011 #21
How about working somewhere? How about opening a bank account? How about setting up a shop? Etcetera! You think you can do that without citizenship? How??

I know that one can: I've done all of that in three countries (apart from setting up a shop, I only did that in two).

I think you're mature enough to understand that you'll need to obtain citizenship in order to participate in society. Otherwise you're going to be a tourist, an illegal, or a temporary worker.

I've lived less than ten percent of my life in countries which I am citizens of, so perhaps I know a little more about it than you do? And no I've never been an illegal resident or a temporary worker.
A J 4 | 1,088
12 Jan 2011 #22
So, it's like that with citizenship (marriage) - if you love a country (a woman) you are its citizen (husband) and you don't take up another country's citizenship (marry another woman.)

Unless she doesn't make you happy anymore, or simply isn't happy with you anymore. (For whatever reason!)

;)
Torq 28 | 2,761
12 Jan 2011 #23
In either case, if you decide to leave her and marry another, you're no longer her husband.
A J 4 | 1,088
12 Jan 2011 #24
I know that one can: I've done all of that in three countries (apart from setting up a shop, I only did that in two).

Of course some countries have more rules and regulations than other countries.

;)

I've lived less than ten percent of my life in countries which I am citizens of, so perhaps I know a little more about it than you do? And no I've never been an illegal resident or a temporary worker.

So you'd call yourself a traitor as well?

xD

In either case, if you decide to leave her and marry another, you're no longer her husband.

No, but you may still have some feelings for her.

;)
Paulina 9 | 1,448
12 Jan 2011 #25
Being Polish means one has certain rights and does not have others.

Being Polish is far more than that, Harry.
Don't you think it's a bit arrogant, while not being Polish yourself, to say what it means to be Polish? I'm not telling you whether you are or aren't a... who are you, anyway?

And, again, patriotism and citizenship aren't the same things as ethnicity.
PennBoy 76 | 2,437
12 Jan 2011 #26
I think many Poles are ashamed of their heritage, sometimes such Poles get to another country and want nothing to do with Poland what so ever.

No you're wrong about that one, it's that they are mad about needing to leave their homeland just to have a better life, why couldn't my country do the same for me as America ? is the question. I've heard Poles who were asked by Americans how is it in Poland and answered there's nothing there, bitterly. Disappointment.
OP Harry
12 Jan 2011 #27
Of course some countries have more rules and regulations than other countries.

Yes, and Poland certainly has more than the USA but I've managed just fine here without being a citizen (opened a bank account, set up a business, bought a flat, bought & registered a car, voted in elections etc). Poles who go to the USA have it far easier than foreigners who come to Poland.

So you'd call yourself a traitor as well?

No, because I'd never be stupid enough to blindly commit myself to a policy of 'my country, right or wrong'. It's a source of constant amazement to me how people take such pride in something which they had absolutely no control over (i.e. where they were born and to whom)!

why couldn't my country do the same for me as America

Er, your country has done the same for you as America has: your country is American. This explains why you answered No to all four questions above and why you swore as above. If Poland was your country, you'd have answered Yes to all those questions and would never have renounced and abjures all allegiance and fidelity to Poland.
A J 4 | 1,088
12 Jan 2011 #28
No, because I'd never be stupid enough to blindly commit myself to a policy of 'my country, right or wrong'. It's a source of constant amazement to me how people take such pride in something which they had absolutely no control over (i.e. where they were born and to whom)!

I feel the same about it.

It is not the leaving that is the betrayal: it is the deciding that one no longer wants to be Polish because being Polish is no longer what is best for one.

Ah, but you can still *feel* very Polish or whatever, no matter in which country you reside, wether you've obtained full citizenship or not.

I think many Poles are ashamed of their heritage, sometimes such Poles get to another country and want nothing to do with Poland what so ever.

I don't think they are ashamed at all, quite the contrary. (From all the people I've known and met here.)

Disappointment.

Sure, but then again, who wouldn't be disappointed if you're not getting anywhere? I don't understand people who are ashamed of their heritage anyway, because to me your heritage doesn't define who you are as an individual. Only your own actions should give you a reason to be either proud or ashamed. (I'm pretty much shameless anyway!)

;)
OP Harry
12 Jan 2011 #29
Ah, but you can still *feel* very Polish or whatever

Yes, in precisely the same way that wiggers *are* black.

Only your own actions should give you a reason to be either proud or ashamed.

Ever notices how it very often the people whose own actions give them no reason to be proud are proud of the actions of other people?
ShortHairThug - | 1,103
12 Jan 2011 #30
No, let's discuss it here, keep all the discussion in one place.

Separate issue deserves a separate thread, may I suggest another one “Jews that betrayed Poland”.

Personally I'm neither a Brit nor an expat

Absolutely right, let's just call you by what you are “5th column”

It is not the leaving that is the betrayal: it is the deciding that one no longer wants to be Polish because being Polish is no longer what is best for one.

Hear hear, that's just deep, especially when it's coming from an Australian by the accident of his birth, who's not very found of that fact either but one who was borne of Polish-Jews none the less. One who decided to come back to the land of his ancestors after the fall of communism, only to badmouth it on every occasion, be it related to the topic at hand or not and God only knows to what end. One who btw, dose everything in his power to smear the country he lives in for the pest 15 years or so never missing an appropriate opportunity. One who never bothered to learn the language of his host country not to mention that of his ancestor though it night be just partial. Although I might be wrong here, most likely neither did they. Calling everyone a traitor because they might have left Poland during the communist times and became a citizens of another country. One who himself never bothered to come here at that time either. That's just deep, very deep.

What's really ironic here is that very same person has an audacity to make up the definition of who's Polish and who's not as it suits him. In your dreams Harry.


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