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Can you BE Polish without SPEAKING Polish in the US?


modafinil - | 416
21 Jan 2012 #151
What about those that did run from their homeland during the wars? It happened a lot more than you might know. Are they no longer Native Americans because they live a few miles across the border?

I've always though Native Americans should refuse to acknowledge the border exists.

People readily accept that there are genetic ties between certain groups like Native Americans or African Americans or Latin Americans but when it comes to Poland, the idea is rejected.

I don't see why.For the individual though, I'm sure it must be thrilling to find there history twined with other cultures.

cooperative anarchy

That sound's like Marxism. But anyway,Polish Americans, the way they develop, is not the correct course of what being Polish is, they are blossoming differently. To use the British commonwealth in relation to being English; It was only when Brits abroad returned with new cultural elements did other ways of life synthesise into Englishness.
delphiandomine 87 | 18,086
21 Jan 2012 #152
Poles in America got to live in a freedom akin to that of the szlachta in the Polish Lithuanian Commonwealth, which was itself a republic in spirit like America.

A republic in spirit? Please - give me some of what you're drinking!

Go away and learn about Batory and Sobieski before making such comments.

The liberal Polish spirit has thus thrived and flourished here amongst the descendants of those adventurous Poles who sailed away to this brave new world.

Poland, liberal? Again - I really need some of what you are drinking. Please.

Poles and Polonians will eventually meet in a culmination of the Slavic people's great destiny to re-introduce the proper human lifestyle to he world- that of cooperative anarchy dedicated to human liberty and joy rather than the ugly consumerist wage slavery of the depraved West of Europe. Poles! my cousins! we are riding our steeds towards a new and golden era!

How do you explain the fact that the vast majority of Polonia will not leave rich America for poor Poland, then?

Sorry pal, but the Polonia exist solely because of human greed and desire.
Grzegorz_ 51 | 6,146
21 Jan 2012 #153
Kashubians aren't Polish, in case that escaped your attention too.

Yep, of course unlike the Jews living in Poland before WW2, they were Polish and If you don't agree, you are antisemitic, right ? :))
Polonius3 986 | 12,343
21 Jan 2012 #154
Polishness need not hinge on language or geography or a surname or even food choice. It is a state of mind. You are Polish (of Bolivian or Basque or whatever) if you feel yourself to be. I have known PolAms who speak excellent Polish but felt little affinity with their Polish ancestral heritage and aspired to total WASP-ificaiton, the quicker the better. They attribtued their good Polish to family pressure (it was spoken at home)or in some cases business necessity (an undertaker, druggist, dentist, insurance or estate agent in a Polish neighbourhood).

Personal comment removed
Lyzko
21 Jan 2012 #155
Grzegorz, Europeans' historical sense of what we Anglo-Saxon's aka Americans term "nationality" is vastly different, I've found. In the US, anyone born to foreign-born parents on US soil is considered "American", despite their PARENT'S nationality. In the US, "Jew" is still only a religious denomination, not an ethnic group or "separate" nation!

Poles, much as Germans, French and practically every other country in the world, regard nationality as linked with race. "Jew" is NOT considered just a creed in, say, Russia, but historically, a separate and distinct people.

Therefore, before condemning a European national for not automatically recognizing Jews the same way WE Americans have been taught to, remember that the European world view across the board has been informed by a very different historical realty from our own.
time means 5 | 1,309
21 Jan 2012 #156
It is a state of mind

No it isn't.
delphiandomine 87 | 18,086
21 Jan 2012 #157
So Dupadomine is again talking through his hat!

Aren't you the high-brow one?

It is a state of mind.

Are you attributing the Polonia's weird feelings on Poland to substance abuse?

Certainly makes sense.
FUZZYWICKETS 8 | 1,879
21 Jan 2012 #158
How do you explain the fact that the vast majority of Polonia will not leave rich America for poor Poland, then?

Oh, well, that's an easy one.

Sorry pal, but the Polonia exist solely because of human greed and desire.

Are you singling out just Poles when you say this or does that go for everyone that leaves their country of origin and goes elsewhere to find a better life?
delphiandomine 87 | 18,086
21 Jan 2012 #159
Oh, well, that's an easy one.

Course it is, and it proves that the crap he wrote is just that - crap.

Are you singling out just Poles when you say this or does that go for everyone that leaves their country of origin and goes elsewhere to find a better life?

Depends in what context - modern day British emigration to Australia isn't necessarily for a better life, but for a change of pace.

There's nothing wrong with it, but Des' claiming that Poles and Polonia will reject Western values for Communism is just hilarious.
FUZZYWICKETS 8 | 1,879
21 Jan 2012 #160
There's nothing wrong with it

Ok. So every Pole that moved to the USA did it for "greed and desire", and you see nothing wrong with it.

Does that go for all Poles that left Poland and went elsewhere in Europe like Germany, France, Scandinavia, England, etc.?
pip 10 | 1,658
21 Jan 2012 #161
In the US, "Jew" is still only a religious denomination, not an ethnic group or "separate" nation!

Poles, much as Germans, French and practically every other country in the world, regard nationality as linked with race. "Jew" is NOT considered just a creed in, say, Russia, but historically, a separate and distinct people.

jewish is an ethnicity and a religion-
delphiandomine 87 | 18,086
21 Jan 2012 #162
Ok. So every Pole that moved to the USA did it for "greed and desire", and you see nothing wrong with it.

What's wrong with wanting more?

Does that go for all Poles that left Poland and went elsewhere in Europe like Germany, France, Scandinavia, England, etc.?

Of course. They're now learning that it's very hard to make something of themselves back in Poland, as those who stayed are the ones headed to the top.

I don't think we'll ever see the return of many of the million-plus in the UK, though.
Lyzko
21 Jan 2012 #163
Not necessarily, pip. Depends on which side of the Great Pond you were raised. I for instance was raised to regard myself as of American nationality, Caucasian race and Jewish faith, nothing more, nothing less.
FUZZYWICKETS 8 | 1,879
21 Jan 2012 #164
What's wrong with wanting more?

nothing. just fact checking.

I don't think we'll ever see the return of many of the million-plus in the UK, though.

Which brings up another question (although maybe more appropriate in another thread) and that is the VWP issue with the USA and Poland. Do you think, if the doors open, they'll flood into the USA like they did recently with the UK?
Lyzko
21 Jan 2012 #165
Just wondering about something there, pip. Do you consider a Polish fellow citizen of the Jewish faith to be a Pole the same as you, presumably a white Roman Catholic as practically 99.99% of the rest of the country, or a Jew of separate and distinct nationality who merely happens to be living side by side with you in Poland?

Maybe I should've specified my question. If you know someone BORN in Poland as were you, whose last name is e.g. Stankowski etc.. not unconditinionally Goldberg, Cohen etc,,, and speaks Polish as a native, behaves in a 'typically' culturally natural Polish way, would you think of that person as just another Pole, or is there always that sense that they're somehow "different"?
delphiandomine 87 | 18,086
21 Jan 2012 #166
Which brings up another question (although maybe more appropriate in another thread) and that is the VWP issue with the USA and Poland. Do you think, if the doors open, they'll flood into the USA like they did recently with the UK?

I don't think so - unlike the UK, Germany, etc - there's still significant barriers to working legally there - and the risk of deportation too. No doubt, there will be some overstayers, who will vanish into Polish ghettos - but nothing that will register as significant. We saw with Germany recently that Poles just aren't interested in moving anymore.

I do think however that we'll see a lot more travel for tourist purposes - but they won't stay.

What it *may* encourage is older, retired people going there to live with their children/grandchildren.
Grzegorz_ 51 | 6,146
21 Jan 2012 #167
If you know someone BORN in Poland as were you, whose last name is e.g. Stankowski etc.. not unconditinionally Goldberg, Cohen etc,,, and speaks Polish as a native, behaves in a 'typically' culturally natural Polish way, would you think of that person as just another Pole, or is there always that sense that they're somehow "different"?

Then the person is Polish, vast majority of Poles will agree with that, so no need to search for sensation here... the thing is that majority of pre-WW2 Jews in Poland weren't like that, they definitely didn't behave like typical Poles... they were more like a parallel society, that's why majority of Poles didn't consider them to be Polish... I brought it up becase once I mention that pre-ww2 Jews in Poland generally weren't Polish, the whole crowd of westerners, expats and other freaks, scream it is "antisemitic" to say so and now one of these guys claim that Kashubs aren't Polish... so a group of people, which are ethnically pretty much the same as standard Poles, are native to the land, pretty much all are fluent in Polish and +95% of them declare themselves as Polish, are not really Polish but pre-WW2 Jews were, well a lack of... consistency I would say.
Orkan
21 Jan 2012 #168
Which brings up another question (although maybe more appropriate in another thread) and that is the VWP issue with the USA and Poland. Do you think, if the doors open, they'll flood into the USA like they did recently with the UK?

Do you think they would?I don't think so.Why would they flood the US?To work minimum wage job with no health insurance in fear of possibility of deprtation at any moment?You can't compare US to UK in that respect.
Grom
21 Jan 2012 #169
Then the person is Polish, vast majority of Poles will agree with that, so no need to search for sensation here....

Good post.They don't understand (or don't want to) that the Jews in pre war Poland were a nation within a nation.Frankly I think it wouldn't be totaly bad if we had some of these Jews in Poland because i find many of the Jewish women you can see in old movies very attractive.
FUZZYWICKETS 8 | 1,879
21 Jan 2012 #170
Why would they flood the US?

That's what I'm asking, yes.

To work minimum wage job with no health insurance in fear of possibility of deprtation at any moment?

What, like it hasn't been done before? New concept? Don't act like it's this crazy idea that nobody would ever dream of doing.

You can't compare US to UK in that respect.

I'm not. I'm asking a question. Keep your panties on.
a.k.
21 Jan 2012 #171
What, like it hasn't been done before? New concept? Don't act like it's this crazy idea that nobody would ever dream of doing.

He didn't say no one. What he said was that there wouldn't be a flood of Poles.
It is a crazy idea, given all those bad news on tv about the USA. Going to the USA is not cheap and being an illegal immigrant is not an appealing idea. Germany is closer and one can go back easly if something doesn't quite come off.

I'm not. I'm asking a question.

Maybe you thought that would be a rhetorical question? ;)
Grom
21 Jan 2012 #172
What, like it hasn't been done before? New concept? Don't act like it's this crazy idea that nobody would ever dream of doing.

Didn't you say FLOOD?I am sure SOME,very few in my opinion would,no question about that but personally I don't see any flood coming.How come they didn't flood Canada yet?And when was that done before?You must be mad to think that milions of Poles would turn up to work worst jobs for little money with no legal papers.
a.k.
21 Jan 2012 #173
You must be mad to think that milions of Poles would turn up to work worst jobs for little money with no legal papers.

He is just an American and likes the thought that he is somewhat special and lucky to live in "a country where everybody wants to live." That's why it's hard to accept for him that there would be no flood.
Grom
21 Jan 2012 #174
Orkan: Why would they flood the US?

That's what I'm asking, yes.

Then answering your question I don't see many reasons unless the US start giving away green cards to the arriving Poles then yes,expect couple of milions.
Lyzko
21 Jan 2012 #175
Interesting posts, Grzegorz and Fuzzy! It's been an education (..as usual).

Thanks:-)
EM_Wave 9 | 310
22 Jan 2012 #176
Not necessarily, pip. Depends on which side of the Great Pond you were raised. I for instance was raised to regard myself as of American nationality, Caucasian race and Jewish faith, nothing more, nothing less.

It seems different American Jews state different things about this. Some say being Jewish can be an ethnicity while others reject that idea.

For example, Bill Maher considers himself "half ethnic Jewish."
OP jasondmzk
22 Jan 2012 #177
it wouldn't be totaly bad if we had some of these Jews in Poland because i find many of the Jewish women you can see in old movies very attractive.

What movies?! This is an odd statement.
FUZZYWICKETS 8 | 1,879
22 Jan 2012 #178
You must be mad to think that milions of Poles would turn up to work worst jobs for little money with no legal papers.

Your words, not mine.

Then answering your question I don't see many reasons unless the US start giving away green cards to the arriving Poles then yes,expect couple of milions.

Why?
Foreigner4 12 | 1,768
22 Jan 2012 #179
Actually its more like melted down in a crucible and made essential.

No. Your analogy could hardly be more incorrect.
Not born in Poland? Don't speak Polish? Not a child? If all three of those conditions exist then no, that person is not Polish and is not the essence of Poland either.
JonnyM 11 | 2,609
22 Jan 2012 #180
Not born in Poland? Don't speak Polish? Not a child? If all three of those conditions exist then no, that person is not Polish and is not the essence of Poland either.

Very true.


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