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Prayer, relgious symbols OK in public in Québec! Poland watches.


jkb - | 198
16 Jun 2013  #61
That's a case of self-defense. The actions of the Holy Inquisition remind more of a situation where a group of soccer fans, called "patriots" by some nut-jobs, asks a random person on the street about their soccer preferences. In case of receiving an unsatisfactory answer, the person in question is being beaten up repeatedly, sometimes to death.
WielkiPolak 58 | 1,034
16 Jun 2013  #62
The cross is an important symbol in Poland. It is religious, yes, but even for less religious people, there is an importance for it. I don't think there need to be other religious symbols in the Polish Sejm, because there is no past behind it. The cross in the same, has a past, so leave it be.

If I was in Saudi Arabia, and went to their parliament building, I wouldn't care what religious symbol they had. Even if I moved there, and then worked in parliament later on, I would just accept that they have an Islamic [or other religious] symbol there, they have great respect for it, and it doesn't bother me. A cross on the wall in the Sejm, a school or work place, does not mean, if you are there, then you believe in it, and adhere to it. You can ignore it. Why does it bother you so much? Some people are happy to have it there, it makes them feel better. Others, who don't care, can just pretend it is not there. Does it really impede their life?
delphiandomine 83 | 17,648
16 Jun 2013  #63
I don't think there need to be other religious symbols in the Polish Sejm, because there is no past behind it. The cross in the same, has a past, so leave it be.

It doesn't have a past. It was put there in 1997 under the cover of darkness by people who had no business being there.

A cross on the wall in the Sejm, a school or work place, does not mean, if you are there, then you believe in it, and adhere to it.

Who asked if the people working there and studying there wanted a cross? Shouldn't it be up to them?

Does it really impede their life?

Perhaps you could start by reading the Constitution. I know you haven't read it (despite your patriotic claims) - but really, a quick look there will tell you all you need to know.
WielkiPolak 58 | 1,034
16 Jun 2013  #64
Who asked if the people working there and studying there wanted a cross? Shouldn't it be up to them?

So if I go to work somewhere, and there is a painting up on the wall, should I be offended because I wasn't asked if it bothered me or not?
jon357 63 | 14,124
16 Jun 2013  #65
barging into a church, pocketing valuable religious artefacts, smashing up priceless statuary and hacking ornate confessionals to pieces.

None of that justifies the mass murder and other atrocities committed by Franco's fascists.
Barney 14 | 1,469
16 Jun 2013  #66
Would you expect the Church to enthusiastically embrace a political movement whose aim was to destroy religion, confiscate people's rightlful possessions, promote free love and introduce a godless regime?

No but I wouldn't expect a modern person to believe crass fascist propaganda. A lot of Priests were murdered by the fascists, a lot of devout Catholics who believed in equality were murdered by the fascists. The killing went on after the war and cannot be explained away as self defence.

The Democratic government was not a rabid mob any more than the black liberation movement was a black lynch mob yet both are painted as communist terrorists.
Harry
16 Jun 2013  #67
No Barney, people who use car bombs in streets filled with civilians are called terrorists, because they are terrorists.
jon357 63 | 14,124
16 Jun 2013  #68
A lot of Priests were murdered by the fascists

That's true. During the middle years of the century many clergy were murdered by right-wing forces. Later on in South America also.

If we're talking about artefacts being destroyed, there's the famous case of the Neolithic cave paintings that were destroyed (on the instruction of priests aligned with Franco's forces) simply because they were pre-Christian imagery. Even in Poland, there were several stone circles removed in the 1930s for the same reason.
OP Polonius3 1,000 | 12,448
16 Jun 2013  #69
actions of the Holy Inquisition

Isn't it a bit ahistorical comparing the middle ages to the 20th century and dragging in football hooligans to boot? (No pun intended!)
The fact remains that the Spanish Inquisition, which lasted a couple centuries, put to death accodding to various estimates from 3,000 to 5,000 people convicted of heresy. The victims of the Spanish Red Terror of the 1930s which lasted only a couple of years did not even get a show trial and were slaughtered in the tens of thousands.
Barney 14 | 1,469
16 Jun 2013  #70
The victims of the Spanish Red Terror of the 1930s which lasted only a couple of years did not even get a show trial and were slaughtered in the tens of thousands.

And the fascists slaughtered hundreds of thousands, the apologists for fascist and racist regimes don't care.
Ironside 48 | 9,748
17 Jun 2013  #71
. Not that there's any evidence whatsoever that the faith in question is 'not good for people'.

Are you seriously advocating in favor of Satanism?
Wait a second? The Cult of Evil/Satan cannot be really considered on equal footing with other faiths.
Even if we assume for a second that there is no God or Evil or nothing behind the grave, still people who would choose to worship epitome of Evil are up to no good and shouldn't be given any privileges.

Unless your aim is to spite Christians, then it would make sense.

The two main denominations of that religion never comment on and hold no organisational point of view about other religions. The more popular of the two in Poland are very particular about that.

Well because they have set themselves in the world of Christan beliefs as their main Opponent, They do not need to stress it.
OP Polonius3 1,000 | 12,448
17 Jun 2013  #72
fascists slaughtered hundreds of thousands

Nobody said the patriotic side faithful to the nation's Catholic heritage used kid gloves. But they were only defending their national traditions and families against Comintern-inspired and bankrolled bolshevisation -- a fate worse than death. You have apparently succumbed to all the romanticized literary hogwash which has tried to glamourous one side and vilify the other.
jon357 63 | 14,124
17 Jun 2013  #73
the patriotic side faithful to the nation's Catholic heritage used kid gloves

You mean the fascist Falanga.
OP Polonius3 1,000 | 12,448
17 Jun 2013  #74
A rose by any other name....etc., or zwał jak zwał!
The Stalinists also had their mantra: 'enemy of the people'. It was pounded into people for decades since Dzierżyński's time until the very sound of it sent chills down people's spines.

The same with fascist. All kinds of agitators with different agendas - not only backers of Stalinist Spain, but rabid feminists ('male fascist pig'), police-haters, Church-bashers etc., have repeatedly overused that term whereby it has become a negative, albeit meaningless catch-all.

Some people BTW react that same way to such terms as communist or leftist.
delphiandomine 83 | 17,648
17 Jun 2013  #75
Some people BTW react that same way to such terms as communist or leftist.

Except the difference is that Franco's Spain was unashamedly fascist, whereas Communism is dead in Poland.
Ironside 48 | 9,748
17 Jun 2013  #76
whereas Communism is dead in Poland.

evidently not comrade
OP Polonius3 1,000 | 12,448
17 Jun 2013  #77
delphiandomine
So fascism is alive and well in Spain? What does fascist mean in your books? I know that leftist means: undermining the foundations of society, attacking tradition, the family and relgion and attempting to create a brave new godless, libertine world where everyone is equal, except some are more equal than others!

Is fascism your synonym for auhtoritarian? Was Piłsudski authoritarian. The ethncially correct KPP (a Stalinist stooge organisation which wanted to turn Poland into the 17th Soviet republic) and the post-war PZPR regime used fascist, reactionary and dictatorial as theri favorutei buzzwords to describe Piłsudski. What was Salazar? Actually only Mussolini was a self-declared fascist?
jon357 63 | 14,124
17 Jun 2013  #78
A rose by any other name....etc., or zwał jak zwał!

They were classically fascist and unashamed to use the term themselves.
Barney 14 | 1,469
17 Jun 2013  #80
You have apparently succumbed to all the romanticised literary hogwash which has tried to glamourise one side and villify the other.

The Spanish civil war was a fundamental test for European society, were people going to support freedom of choice and conscience or not. Democracy failed, the so called liberal European nations allowed the Fascists to arm murder and terrorize the people of Spain because they had made the fundamental mistake of voting for the wrong side. The one sided arms embargo enforced by the "liberal Empires" prevented the democratic forces from prevailing. These same people allowed the Nazis to grow and expand with disastrous consequences.

There is no rose tinted glasses being worn here the brutal facts are that the Fascists murdered and killed hundreds of thousands of people including many after the war and much with the blessing of the Church. There is no point trying to falsify history the Church sanctioned these things and the so called liberal western democracies facilitated the slaughter.
OP Polonius3 1,000 | 12,448
18 Jun 2013  #81
The victory of patriotic Spanish forces over misguided domestic leftists aided by outside Stalinist forces meant that Europe was saved from Sovietisation. And that is the bottom line. If the defneders of Catholic Spain had been defeated, who knows if your grandparents or parents in England, Belgium, Scotland, France, Germany or wherever wouldn't be working in PGRs or some 'People's Shoe Repairers Cooperative' or teaching kids in school: 'I pledge allegiance to Uncle Joe, may his Hammer & Sickle forever grow!'
Barney 14 | 1,469
18 Jun 2013  #82
The victory of patriotic Spanish forces over misguided domestic leftists aided by outside Stalinist forces meant that Europe was saved from Sovietisation.

And handed to the Nazis.
OP Polonius3 1,000 | 12,448
18 Jun 2013  #83
True, but the Nazis lasted only 12 years. The bolshieskilled, tortured and persecuted people for seven deacdes. That's a big difference.
Barney 14 | 1,469
18 Jun 2013  #84
The bolshieskilled, tortured and persecuted people for seven deacdes

But it was as a direct result of the Nazis that Stalinism survived for so long.

The invasion of the Soviet Union both allowed and forced the rapid expansion of the industrial base prolonging the USSR and enslaving Poland.
OP Polonius3 1,000 | 12,448
18 Jun 2013  #85
rapid expansion of the industrial base prolonging the USSR and enslaving Poland.

That's quite a good point. But don't forget lend-lease. If it wasn't for the US military hardware including the famous Willys Jeeps and Studebaker trucks, Hitler would have conquered the USSR.
jon357 63 | 14,124
18 Jun 2013  #86
Are you seriously advocating in favor of Satanism?
Wait a second? The Cult of Evil/Satan cannot be really considered on equal footing with other faiths.

Why not? Who are we to judge the validity of someone else's belief system.

Well because they have set themselves in the world of Christan beliefs as their main Opponent, They do not need to stress it.

You're mistaking it for something else.
Ironside 48 | 9,748
20 Jun 2013  #87
Why not? Who are we to judge the validity of someone else's belief system.

If somebody decide to worship Hitler. would you be so supportive as well?

You're mistaking it for something else.

search.snapdo.com/?q=satanism+&category=Web
jon357 63 | 14,124
20 Jun 2013  #88
If somebody decide to worship Hitler. would you be so supportive as well?

You're assuming I'm supportive of any belief. Some people do worship Hitler - even some users here. It's their right, whatever you or I might think.

Btw, try Wikipedia on the particular religion you're looking for - it is a better source.
Meathead 5 | 470
22 Jun 2013  #89
Isn't it a bit ahistorical comparing the middle ages to the 20th century and dragging in football hooligans to boot? (No pun intended!)

The Roman Catholic Inquisition lasted from 1200 AD - 1800 AD and encompassed all of Europe. That's why there was a Protestant Reformation, it wasn't about theology it was about the politics of the Roman Catholic Church.
goofy_the_dog
22 Jun 2013  #90
I think jon is loosing a plot, satanism is evil and very dangerous for the society, there sect should be delegalised and the ppl innit should to an exorcist.

Barney hahaha nazis were blessed by the Church??!..
Daaang where did read that, somekind of a sci fy book?
I love this forum for such gems :-P


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