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Moved back from Canada to Poland:). Here are the reasons why.


OP aphrodisiac 11 | 2,444
4 Nov 2010 #211
i think for anyone coming from Canada/USA and moving to Poland is going to be faced with an inevitable realization, regardless of who you are.

that maybe the the case, but I already stated that I didn't move here because I hated Canada or loved Poland so much, which is not the case in either. I moved here for family reasons - in particular - to look after my father, which I am doing.

The realization will be that you left a better life for a more difficult one.

it is too early to say if it is more difficult or not. It is very different then it is in Canada for sure. My family is here, so I am more comfortable here and if in trouble, I have somebody to turn to, which I didn't have in Canada - well besides a bunch of artificial friends who liked my company because I am a nice person. North America is nice for travelling, but I have to admit that the Canadian winter got to me over the years. Of course Polish weather is no better, but at least there won't be -30 C for 3 months.

but that's just me.

yes, it is. For me Poland is home, regardless of how bad it seems to some people.

what is it in Poland that you find is just simply BETTER than in Canada?

Once I start comparing, I am in trouble. I can do it and be rational about it, but there is also an emotional attachment to Poland, which I have never developed towards Canada. That is why I returned.

Pigeon(s) in love
yes, he, or maybe more then one male have been occupying my balcony for some time now. I can hear them producing gargling sounds and if I didn't know better, I would assume that it was the guy next door, but the left overs of their courtship left me thinking that it was not a human being after all.

Love is blind and I have to clean the balcony now:)
Teffle 22 | 1,321
4 Nov 2010 #212
I am starting to discover that some Poles don't like any changes and they like to be where they are, because what is Polish is better, even if it is not better anyways

Well I don't mean to be triumphalist but I'm glad that you, a Pole, have said this to be honest.
FUZZYWICKETS 8 | 1,884
4 Nov 2010 #213
aphrodisiac wrote:

I didn't move here because I hated Canada or loved Poland so much, which is not the case in either. I moved here for family reasons - in particular - to look after my father, which I am doing.

is that all you'll be doing or will you work as well? not suggesting anything by that, just asking.

aphrodisiac wrote:

I didn't like the distances in Canada, where one had to drive 5 hours to see anything different, while I am here, within 2 hours I could be in Berlin - a great city.

you know, i keep hearing that from other posters, and I used to think similarly, but after living here for 4 years, I feel differently. Considering how much it costs in gas to go absolutely anywhere in Europe along with car ownership, it's pricey to drive to other countries, especially for people living in the middle of Poland trying to drive out of the country. Even if you get yourself a cheap plane ticket through one of those discount airlines, once you get to your destination, hello, Euros/Pounds/Francs, which means your wallet is going to take a beating just to stay somewhere for the night, let alone feed yourself.

i'd be curious to ask the expats on this forum that have been living in Poland for at least 3-4 years how many countries and big cities they have been to during their time spent in Poland.
OP aphrodisiac 11 | 2,444
4 Nov 2010 #214
is that all you'll be doing or will you work as well? not suggesting anything by that, just asking.

I have been working since the second week of my arrival and the things are going OK at the moment.

Considering how much it costs in gas to go absolutely anywhere in Europe along with car ownership, it's pricey to drive to other countries, especially for people living in the middle of Poland trying to drive out of the country

you are right if you are talking about the teacher's wages in Poland but if one is doing something more lucrative, then it is much more accessible. Still, it is cheaper to go from Poland to Europe then from the US or Canada, provided you don't stay in 5 star hotels. I am very close to the German border and I am much closer to Berlin then to Warsaw, but you have a point. Why not take advantage of the opportunity when you are still in the continent.

Besides, most people in the US and Canada go to cheap Mexico, Caribean destinations, at least those who travel or have passport, since many don't as far as I know, Most of my Canadian cousins have not been anywhere and it is not because they cannot pay for it, they are simply not very interested to be honest. Poles and Europeans travel more, even though they probably pay a larger chunk of their wages. It is about priorities and Poles being curious about other countries and finally being able to pay for it without breaking the bank.

I am planning to visit Berlin within a couple of weeks (2 hours away) and probably go to Portugal in the summer.
FUZZYWICKETS 8 | 1,884
4 Nov 2010 #215
aphrodisiac wrote:

Poles and Europeans travel more

even that I'm starting to wonder about.

sure, most americans don't even own a passport, but they live in an ENORMOUS country. going to another state is like going to another country for a european. in europe, other countries are simply more accessible. for an american, going to canada simply isn't that exotic and excluding the resorts in mexico, the rest of the country is a dump. for an american to go to another country aside from those 2, it involves a serious plane ride.
OP aphrodisiac 11 | 2,444
4 Nov 2010 #216
Well I don't mean to be triumphalist but I'm glad that you, a Pole, have said this to be honest.

I just made an honest observation. I have not figured out why Poles like to travel, but are really not that interested in other cultures. Nobody has asked me during the last month how I spent my time in Canada, nobody is really interested and they are all waiting for me to fit in and eat their food and accept everything about Poland the way it is. However, it is me who has to adjust, I am the minority, but I am allowed to make critical observations.

I was in the Tax office yesterday to get some information and the woman was very rude to me.

I told her that I am becoming a taxpayer and it is I who would be paying for her wages, so she better changes the tone. Her face became red and she started to talk to me like she was suppose to - in a nice and informative way. She claimed that her wages come from the Polish government - well, they do, but indirectly.

The weather in Poland has deteriorated



after an almost a month of a fairly brilliant sun for the most part of Sep and October, the darkness, the mustiness and humidity have settled in Szczecin. It is not pouring, but the droplets of water keep falling down on the ground in a steady pace.

This way some puddles have been created and when I walk on the street I feel like a in a minefield of water mines, which often I fail to avoid.

The indian summer is over and the sky, blue in the past took a greyish tone. There is nowhere to run from this weather and if I had a fireplace in my place, I would be sitting in front of it with a cup of hot tea, or a glass of whiskey, perhaps reading a book. I used to call this weather:

Pogoda kominkowo- koniakowa.

I am glad my books came in from Canada, because this might be a good time to catch up on reading, although I swore to myself that I would not touch another book after I graduated from uni this June for at least a year. The time has come to renounce that promise and jump into a warm bed with a good book and I wish you the same.

Goodnight. Poland is falling asleep and people are preparing for the hibernation time.

There is of course a new French wine coming up soon for a little snob like me and of anyone is interested, there is a bit more info on it. I have made a habit of having one bottle of this newly harvested wine once a year to celebrate the end of summer and an a mental preparation for the winter.

Here is a bit more about this vine and it is available around the world:

Ah, a little bit of excitement in the wine world is fun to see. What is this Beaujolais Nouveau race, and where did it begin? First, the region. Back in July 1395, the "Gamay" grape was forbidden to be used in Burgundy. Beaujolais, the southern neighbor, decided it should use Gamay and make its wines from this grape. And thus started a differentiation that continues to this day. Today, 98% of this region is planted with Gamay; the rest is Pinot Noir and Chardonnay.

Beaujolais Nouveau is the first output from each harvest - ready exactly on the Third Thursday of November each year. It's a celebration across the world, as people gather to taste the first Beaujolais of the new season.

It's also a race of sorts - who can be the first to try the Beaujolais Nouveau from this season? Over 65 million bottles are sped, flown, and boated across the world to wine lovers everywhere. And to think that the wine had barely been harvested a few scant weeks ago.

Beaujolais Nouveau started as a local event, to celebrate the end of the harvest and congratulate the workers and wine growers. The French government moved to control this flow, and in 1938 put in strict restrictions. In 1951 they were revoked by the Union Interprofessional des Vins de Beaujolais (UIVB), and a specific release date was set. Soon other countries heard of this situation and wanted to become part of the celebration. In 1985 the date was moved to the Third Thursday of November, to make the date coincide with a weekend.

Happy sipping:)

pgtx 29 | 3,159
4 Nov 2010 #217
they are all waiting for me to fit in and eat their food and accept everything about Poland the way it is.

yes! do so!!! lol

I am allowed to make critical observations

no! you're not! ask a few pf members, you're not alloved to even mention anything negative about "not your" country!!! lol

the woman was very rude to me.

yeah.... you gotta love the biurwy... (you know how it rhymes, right? ;)) lol

Happy sipping:)

interesting....

;)
FUZZYWICKETS 8 | 1,884
4 Nov 2010 #218
aphrodisiac wrote:

the weather has deteriorated

now you're talkin'!

aphro wrote:

I have not figured out why Poles like to travel, but are really not that interested in other cultures.

because everything in poland is the bestest most wonderfulest bestest.

aphro wrote:

Nobody has asked me during the last month how I spent my time in Canada, nobody is really interested

i experience something similar, but different. my impression is that they ask with the notion that they already know all there is to know about america and then when you answer the question straight, they either don't believe you or get offended to some degree. i used to welcome questions about america because i thought they would be genuinely interested and responsive, but all too often it resulted in lots of eye rolling and snickering as if I was lying or attacking Poland in some way or......or.....I don't even know. Nowadays, I avoid questions about my country like the plague. It's simply too frustrating to entertain questions from people who don't really want to listen.
pgtx 29 | 3,159
4 Nov 2010 #219
everything in poland is the bestest most wonderfulest bestest

totally the best post ever!!!
hehe...
Torq 26 | 2,371
4 Nov 2010 #220
everything in poland is the bestest most wonderfulest bestest.

Thank you, Captain Obvious.

*by the way - we spell Poland with a capital 'P'*
Ironside 49 | 9,914
5 Nov 2010 #221
Nowadays, I avoid questions about my country like the plague. It's simply too frustrating to entertain questions from people who don't really want to listen.

well, isn't that true about everywhere really? you simply must learn to differentiate between people really interested, and able to comprehend and simpletons, or maybe you have no a narration gift?
ShawnH 8 | 1,498
5 Nov 2010 #222
dash of cinnamon

nutmeg or allspice.

bit with potato and carrots all blended

yep.
Zosia 1 | 51
5 Nov 2010 #223
Aphrodisiac,
I am really enjoying this thread. I hope you keep writing and updating us about settling in in Poland. You should start a blog!
I miss Poland everyday, and I live in Canada now, but I don't think I would ever move back, just visit every so often. I love reading your stories about everyday life in Poland.

Zosia
ShawnH 8 | 1,498
5 Nov 2010 #224
but I have to admit that the Canadian winter got to me over the years. Of course Polish weather is no better, but at least there won't be -30 C for 3 months

Frost on the windows a couple of days ago in Miss.

What is this Beaujolais Nouveau

Three more weeks!
Marynka11 4 | 675
5 Nov 2010 #225
i think for anyone coming from Canada/USA and moving to Poland.

It all depends from perspective. From what I understand you are a foreigner living in PL. Aphrodisiac does not have to face the language and and culture barrier which you do. For one thing he is at home. Can't beat that.
Chicago Pollock 7 | 504
5 Nov 2010 #226
:
but I have to admit that the Canadian winter got to me over the years. Of course Polish weather is no better, but at least there won't be -30 C for 3 months

if you don't mind me asking, where in Canada is it minus 30 for 3 months.

For one thing he is at home. Can't beat that.

"she" not "he"

Just curious, but do you travel back to Poland often? If so, what are your observations?
Wroclaw Boy
5 Nov 2010 #227
because everything in poland is the bestest most wonderfulest bestest.

Thats just patriotism, we all bang on about how great our country is from time to time, i mean look at average

I was in the Tax office yesterday to get some information and the woman was very rude to me.

its a shame that you need to be rude to these people in order to get the standard service, my wife always puts them straight right away.

Nobody has asked me during the last month how I spent my time in Canada,

Questions of that nature seem to be on the light side in Poland, i was amazed when i first met my wifes parents that they didnt ask me any questions. I think its more a case of them not wanting to be nosy.

However im interested - what did you do all that time in Canada and what were your reasons for leaving Poland in the first place?
FUZZYWICKETS 8 | 1,884
5 Nov 2010 #228
Ironside wrote:

well, isn't that true about everywhere really?

I haven't lived everywhere, but I can tell you the difference in my home country.

Mainly, people in America don't know the first thing about Poland and when they ask something about Poland out of curiosity, their reactions to the answers are completely different than what I experience here. Sure, there are moments of just pure ignorance in America but there's a very important element that's left out with the Americans....jealousy. They don't envy Poland in any way, which is something that cannot be said about some Poles and how they feel about America and I think that has something to do with their attidude when they ask me questions.

It's the same crap going on amongst posters on this forum. SAME CRAP. Polish people fighting tooth and nail against basically anything having to do with America and taking everything they think may be superior to "the west" and exploiting it as often as possible. The worst part is the people on Team Poland that do this the most have never even been to the USA, making it doubly extra fubbly annoying.
OP aphrodisiac 11 | 2,444
5 Nov 2010 #229
yes! do so!!! lol

you know well that I was just joking, some things are easy for me, some things make my eyebrows rise and always will.

no! you're not! ask a few pf members, you're not alloved to even mention anything negative about "not your" country!!! lol

PF members are not really opinion makers although they think they are. Fair enough.

yeah.... you gotta love the biurwy... (you know how it rhymes, right? ;)) lol

actually, it is changing but there is still left over of this attitude. I spoke to 4 and only one out of 4 was rude, yet she corrected her behaviour. I think they are not as secure in their jobs because people have been complaining.

interesting....

yes, the wine is light and refreshing.

thanks Zosia,

this is a blog, I am not starting another one, since the impressions will not be as fresh.

Frost on the windows a couple of days ago in Miss.

so it is getting colder, brr........

Three more weeks!

less then 3:)

Aphrodisiac does not have to face the language and and culture barrier which you do. For one thing he is at home. Can't beat that.

you got a point there, but I spend a lot of time in Canada and I have problems with adjusting and some Polish mentality is not familiar to me anymore. Fuzzy must have more obstacles to face for sure.

if you don't mind me asking, wh

in Toronto. Even f it doesn't last 3 month it is freaking cold in Toronto in the winter and the winter is long. 2 years ago I almost got a frostbite. With the windshield it is brutal and you should know that living in Chicago.

its a shame that you need to be rude to these people in order to get the standard service, my wife always puts them straight right away.

it is a shame really, but it has to be done and I really don't mind doing it, some people think I am a witch, but those clerks really need to realize that the communism is over.

Questions of that nature seem to be on the light side in Poland, i was amazed when i first met my wifes parents that they didnt ask me any questions. I think its more a case of them not wanting to be nosy.

interesting point - maybe they don't want to be nosy or maybe they just don't care. I will ask my Polish friend about that.

However im interested - what did you do all that time in Canada and what were your reasons for leaving Poland in the first place?

I went to study there and never really planned to stay for longer then necessary.

nutmeg or allspice.

good one- I will try it next weekend.

now you're talkin'!

I knew this comment would make you happy.

because everything in poland is the bestest most wonderfulest bestest.

we all know it is not true:D if anything - it is average or often mediocre by international standards, but let all the Poles think otherwise;).

i experience something similar, but different. my impression is that they ask with the notion that they already know all there is to know about america and then when you answer the question straight, they either don't believe you or get offended to some degree. i used to welcome questions about america because i thought they would be genuinely interested and responsive, but all too often it resulted in lots of eye rolling and snickering as if I was lying or attacking Poland in some way or......or.....I don't even know. Nowadays, I avoid questions about my country like the plague. It's simply too frustrating to entertain questions from people who don't really want to listen.

absolutely on the spot. Even my father knows more about Canada then me, he comes across as an expert and I, who lived there, just a mere listener. It makes me laugh because this attitude is so bizarre.

A lot of Poles have a serious listening comprehension problem for sure. It is funny at time, but often it really effects good communication.

you simply must learn to differentiate between people really interested, and able to comprehend and simpletons, or maybe you have no a narration gift?

that is a really silly comment since you assume that Fuzzy luck intelligence to tell who is interested in his stories and who isn't. It is generally the Poles who are not interested, we still haven't figured out why. That is all he was saying and you are getting defensive.

this thread is not edited, since the editing time is 15 minutes on PF and I don't like to edited stuff since it looses some of its freshness. I am aware of grammar and spelling mistakes on this thread, but I will not change anything at this point. Later on I might put this on a blog and then I will take my time to edit it.[/b]

thanks for reading:)
z_darius 14 | 3,968
5 Nov 2010 #230
Of course Polish weather is no better, but at least there won't be -30 C for 3 months.

The coldest −33C was recorded on January 10, 1859 and −31.3C on January 4, 1981. I think you didn't live in Toronto then.

The coldest month on record in Toronto averaged at -12C.

Even my father knows more about Canada then me

As shown above, there may be some good reasons for that :)

Other than the above though, great thread and I have been reading it with pleasure since you started it.
OP aphrodisiac 11 | 2,444
5 Nov 2010 #231
balonii Darius, with the windshield it reached -30 C in the winter quite often, don't tell me that you did freeze your balls in Niagara region in the winter, even though they make wine there during the summer. Still the icewine is the hit not the regular Hildebrand or whatever they call it. Canada has no good vine. Tell me why in Niagara region even during the grape growing season some or all wine makers have special heaters in the field?

As shown above, there may be some good reasons for that :)

well, then I obviously inherited his ignorance;)

Other than the above though, great thread and I have been reading it with pleasure since you started it.

wow, you can actually be positive! I will mark it in my calendar: Dariusz liked something;P
FUZZYWICKETS 8 | 1,884
5 Nov 2010 #232
aphrodisiac wrote:

that is a really silly comment since you assume that Fuzzy luck intelligence to tell who is interested in his stories and who isn't. It is generally the Poles who are not interested, we still haven't figured out why. That is all he was saying and you are getting defensive.

Ironside falls into that category.
pgtx 29 | 3,159
5 Nov 2010 #233
you know well that I was just joking

well hello! ;)

actually, it is changing but there is still left over of this attitude. I spoke to 4 and only one out of 4 was rude, yet she corrected her behaviour. I think they are not as secure in their jobs because people have been complaining.

i've always had a problem with their attitude... but you gotta do what you gotta do... :)

those clerks really need to realize that the communism is over.

but they like it that way... they do nothing all day, drink coffee and gossip... a client?! who's that?! lol

I think its more a case of them not wanting to be nosy.

interesting point - maybe they don't want to be nosy or maybe they just don't care

i think that's it... they don't want to be noisy and wait for you to tell them... i know it may get akward at times... give it a time... i think Poles are hungry to hear about the outside world... i've got lots of questions about the US when i visited Polandia...
z_darius 14 | 3,968
5 Nov 2010 #234
balonii Darius, with the windshield it reached -30 C

That'll be bologna or baloney.
And the windshield would actually make the weather feel warmer. That's why they are so useful in vehicles. Or did you mean wind chill? If so, the temperature was still nowhere near -30C in Toronto when you lived there. It just felt that way. The "wind chill" factor does not state what the actual temperature is but what it feels like. To me anything above 0C feels warm.

Tell me why in Niagara region even during the grape growing season some or all wine makers have special heaters in the field?

Complete and utter bullcrap. Where the heck did you get one from? Heaters in the grape growing season when it's well above +30C in the open field? How do you heat 200 acres of grapes? With what? Do you have a link to those "special heaters" dealers? I might want to buy one for my garage.

Sheesh... do you have even a vague idea about the energy requirements for your imaginary scenario? Any clue how much wine would cost if that was actually done?! That's beyond ridiculous.

And did you know that some tractors and air conditioners installed? I did GPS consulting for a local farm equipment. They sold, among others, Gregoire (French made) grape harvesters. The most popular models were fully air-conditioned.

In Winter the picking is manual and the pickers have to wear thick gloves. Not for their protection but to protect the frozen grapes from thawing. They can pick only at night after the temps had been steady below -10C for 3 consecutive days. That's how they get material for ice wine. Pricey, over $40 for a glass of wine. Last Winter the local papers complained harvest wasn't too good as the temps were not low enough for very long. That's the result of the Lake Effect in Niagara. If you look at the map, read a little on the dynamics of land and large bodies of water you'll understand why we don't get -30C in Niagara.

These are the averages fort the area:

Winter -6.50C (avg)
Summer 25.76C (avg)
Spring 7.29C (avg)
Hot days (30°C or above) 13.67

and finally, those legendary days with -30C:

Cold days (-20°C or less) 0.88 days :)

Not quite the the 3 months you claimed, huh?
Barney 14 | 1,469
5 Nov 2010 #235
Complete and utter bullcrap.

Not quite. Heaters are often used to protect the flower buds from frost damage in spring.
But it would be silly to heat an uncovered area and as you said ruinously expensive.

The traditional heaters in France are called Smudge Pots.
z_darius 14 | 3,968
5 Nov 2010 #236
Not quite. Heaters are often used to protect the flower buds from frost damage in spring.

I think you missed her post.
She wrote in "even during the grape growing season".

This is a quote from those who know best about Niagara when it comes to grape growing:

Monthly temperatures in Niagara are similar to those in Bordeaux and Burgundy in France. The moderating effects of Lakes Ontario and Erie, and the protective influence of the Niagara Escarpment, creates an area of moderate temperatures during spring and summer growing seasons. Its rich and fertile soils and unique microclimate are suitable for growing Vitis vinifera grapes, making Niagara a prime grape-growing region. Niagara has 13,600 acres under vine. The grape growing area stretches from Niagara-on-the-Lake in the east to Grimsby in the west.

grapegrowersofontario.com/thevineyards/niagara.html

This doesn't sound like the polar bear kind of climate she suggested, does it?

Regardless, in my 20 years here I haven't seen one single instance of grape growers heating their grapes any time of the year. Not once. And I drive by those fields almost every day.

In general there are 3 harvests in the area:

- September - your "regular wines"
- Late harvest (November/early December) - sweeter varieties
- Deep Winter - ice wine, which is pretty much very, very sweet syrup. A sip is all you need and few want more than that. It is a popular import in Asia though (mostly Japan and Taiwan).
Barney 14 | 1,469
5 Nov 2010 #237
in my 20 years here I haven't seen one single instance of grape growers heating their grapes any time of the year. Not once. And I drive by those fields almost every day.

I'm suprised by that, the microclimate must be unusual.

The gulf stream keeps us supplied with rain all year round.

Winter -6.50C (avg)
Summer 25.76C (avg)
Spring 7.29C (avg)

That looks like my kind of climate. I like distinct seasons or more accuratly, the changeing of the seasons. The one thing I really dislike is wind, warm or cold I just dont like it.

I have tried and liked ice wine. There is a similar dessert wine made from Noble rot not as pricey as $40 a glass but just as good. Afro could get some of either when she goes to Berlin.
z_darius 14 | 3,968
5 Nov 2010 #238
I'm suprised by that, the microclimate must be unusual.

It is. As per the quote I supplied.

In general the climate here, on both sides of the border, can be pretty crazy and the high humidity will at times add to the discomfort - on both hot and cold days. The lake effect I mentioned above is the culprit. The Lake Ontario and the (mean and nasty) Lake Erie have their ways with the region.

There were times when I came with a foot of snow on top of my car, from work in Buffalo, NY, about 50km drive, but it was +15C in the hometown.

Sometimes cold fronts will come from the US (mostly from Colorado) and they can dump a couple of feet of snow in one part of the city, while the other half will remain dry. Just a 40 minute drive to Hamilton and sometimes they will have tornadoes, but Niagara is shielded from that by the so called Escarpment - an old geological formation form the times of the Ice Age.

The one thing I really dislike is wind, warm or cold I just dont like it.

Same with me. It's not even about the temps themselves though, but rather about the accompanying conditions. Minus 10C on a sunny and calm day feels much nicer than a snow and rain on a windy day.

I have tried and liked ice wine. There is a similar dessert wine made from Noble rot not as pricey as $40 a glass but just as good. Afro could get some of either when she goes to Berlin.

Because of some contract work I did for some wineries I had a steady supply of ice wine, a few dozen bottles that took a whole to disperse as presents to those who pretty much have everything they need anyway. That Noble rot sounds like what they call here Late Harvest [place a name of you fav. wine here].. Picked in Late Fall is will have significantly increased sugar content. That is from the Sun during Indian Summer, and sometimes as late as mid December sunny days.
Lukasz K - | 103
5 Nov 2010 #239
Everything depends on the point of view...
If we compare that to Szczecin which has the most oceanic climate in Poland with average of coldest month at -0,7 C (so whole winter average is probably above 0 C) -6,5 C is very, very cold. The coldest January ever recorded in Szczecin had average -4,1 C.

The absolute minima are similar (-32 C in Szczecin in January 1987) but the general weather in winter in Szczecin is rain with short periods of frost and snow which melts next week when it gets warmer again. Permanent snow cover and frost are rare. Canada has much more continental climate.

On the other hand summers are much longer and hotter in S Ontario which is because of the latitude (43 N compared to 53 N in Szczecin where average of the warmest month is 18 C and the number of days with above 30 C is sth like 3 per year...).

So I prefer winters in Szczecin and summers in Ontario...

Regards

Lukasz
FUZZYWICKETS 8 | 1,884
5 Nov 2010 #240
funny how you got yourself into yet another long, drawn out argument about temperature aphrodisiac....

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