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Dual citizenship - US doesn't care if you don't give up Polish passport


convex 20 | 3,978
8 Mar 2010 #31
Shhh, me too....
OP f stop 25 | 2,513
8 Mar 2010 #32
A bit outdated, but still, an interesting case:

Richards v. Secretary of State et al., 752 F.2d 1413 (9th Cir. 1985)
The following Court of Appeals case (one step below the Supreme Court) isn't nearly as relevant nowadays as it was in 1985, in light of the State Department's current (and much more permissive) policy on loss of US citizenship.

William Richards became a Canadian citizen in 1971. At the time he did this, the Canadian naturalization oath included a clause renouncing prior allegiances. Accordingly, a lower court concluded that Richards had lost his US citizenship.

Richards argued that he had acquired Canadian citizenship only because he

isaacbrocksociety.ca/2011/12/16/from-the-archive-did-you-relinquish-here-are-some-proofs-that-the-state-department-uses

The title to this thread, which I created, was "dual citizenship". That's all, since I wanted the readers to draw their own conclusions. Why then, somebody added "US doesn't care if you don't give up your Polish passport" ??

WHY??
I would like that addition removed!
aphrodisiac 11 | 2,442
8 Mar 2010 #33
somebody added "US doesn't care if you don't give up your Polish passport" ??

mods altered the thread title and you should address them.
OP f stop 25 | 2,513
8 Mar 2010 #34
interesting..
One of the reasons I posted it was because I started asking all the Polish expats I know how they feel about that oath, and they all, without exception, said that they were not aware that they swore an oath renouncing their allegiance to Poland.
krysia 23 | 3,058
8 Mar 2010 #35
Yea... but it's an oath. An OATH.

Like when did Polish people ever obey an OATH
Matowy - | 295
8 Mar 2010 #36
You seem to know very little about the UK, since its part of becoming a British citizen here! Or do you not consider the UK to be modern?

The UK has traditions, and meaningless ones at that. We have legislation that is hundreds of years old that, in writing, is very much official. In practise, however, this legislation is nothing, and the slight suggestion at enforcing some of the centuries-old laws that nobody has bothered to official dispose of would be laughable. Or do you really think that the Queen still have the ability to dissolve parliament on her whim? Of course not. Much of the UK system is not written down, but accepted as law simply because it is common practise and common sense. Ceremony is a part of that too, and all know it's meaningless.

I gained my right to be a Subject of Britain because my family history goes back centuries (not to 2 generations)

Hahahahahahahahahaha, do you seriously believe this?! You didn't "gain" any such "right". You were born here, so you got automatic citizenship. Don't fill your head with such fantasies that the government, or anyone but yourself, gives a **** how far your family goes back. Your parents could have come here on a space ship from the other side of the galaxy through a wormhole that leads to an alternate reality, and you'd still be a citizen if you were born here.
OP f stop 25 | 2,513
8 Mar 2010 #37
Like when did Polish people ever obey an OATH

some do
plk123 8 | 4,149
9 Mar 2010 #38
They complain enough about US citizens having lived in foreign countries, good luck on trying to get it as a naturalized citizen. You might want to have a back up job, because you'll be waiting a long ass time to get it.

let me tell ya, you don't want that crap.. secret clearance is way too much trouble that is not worth a damn unless you love to give up every freaking little detail about yourself and then have everyone that has ever known you get hassled.. this is along the lines of the too the long arm of crooked US law i mentioned above.. just don't do it, i say.. it really isn't worth it.. last time i was "offered" this, i told them to go eff themselves. lol

are Americans allowed to hold dual passports?

by written law, only citizens of Israel.

When someone has busted their ass paying into a scam like social security, they deserve to get every penny back out of it.

effin eh!

That doesn't necessarily mean renounce citizenship, though, does it?

oh, most definitely that is what it means exactly... it makes no sense otherwise... you're either an american or you're not... what about if USA got in a war with PL? you're either with us or against us, mang. ;) :D

Shhh, me too....

exactly, it's actually illegal.. look it up.. unless you're a jew, that is..

you'd still be a citizen if you were born here

actually a subject, as she said... look into it.

here is the current US oath:
---------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------

I hereby declare, on oath, that I absolutely and entirely renounce and abjure all allegiance and fidelity to any foreign prince, potentate, state, or sovereignty of whom or which I have heretofore been a subject or citizen; that I will support and defend the Constitution and laws of the United States of America against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; that I will bear arms on behalf of the United States when required by the law; that I will perform noncombatant service in the Armed Forces of the United States [...]

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oath_of_Allegiance_(United_States)

---------------------------------------------------------------------- --------------
and this is what it means:

The current exact text of the Oath of Citizenship is established only in the form of an administrative regulation promulgated by the executive branch. However, under the Administrative Procedure Act, USCIS could theoretically change the text of the oath at any time, so long as the new text reasonably meets the "five principles" mandated by the Immigration and Nationality Act of 1953. These principles are:

* allegiance to the United States Constitution,
* renunciation of allegiance to any foreign country to which the immigrant has had previous allegiances to
* defense of the Constitution against enemies "foreign and domestic"
[...]

/wiki/Oath_of_Allegiance_%28United_States%29
beelzebub - | 444
9 Mar 2010 #39
If you haven't done anything wrong it's not a problem. There is nothing crooked about the process. They just have to verify who you are and what you said you did. It is a very professional and well executed program. They don't "hassle" anyone...they just speak to people that know you and get references etc. I don't see the problem with it. It's not mandatory...you can refuse the job. But if someone is going to be working with sensitive issues they should be vetted. Simple.
skysoulmate 14 | 1,296
9 Mar 2010 #40
When becoming a US citizen, you are supposed to give up a passport of any other country.
I've been checking around, and US government does not prosecute, or seem to care about those that keep their Polish passport anyway.

I became US citizen while in the military, in fact, they helped me with all the paper work.

One of the administrators explained the Oath to me this way. (Don't remember the exact wording so I'm paraphrasing)

"The US government will not prosecute you or anyone else for keeping your (in my case) Swedish citizenship. What the Oath means is what's in your heart. So ask yourself, if God forbid Sweden (or country of your choice) finds itself on a collision course with the US, we - the US military - want to know we can count on you being an American first and foremost. Can you handle that?"

I think that's a pretty good, common sense summary what it really means. I am proud to be a US citizen and think anyone considering it should look into all the obligations of a citizen, not just the rights. As someone pointed out, it's a privilege and not a right.

Disagree with you PLK - first of all the process is pretty painless. They do the work you do the paper work. Second of all, if you don't have any skeletons in your closet you have nothing to worry about. Everyone panics about the Patriot Act, etc which supposedly took away some liberties. An average ACLU lawyer would rip apart most of the EU governments and their "liberties" they think are so much better than ours.

Anyways, I don't want to turn this thread into them versus us. I simply wanted to point out that becoming a US citizen is a privilege (and likewise it's a privilege to become a Swedish, Polish, etc. citizen) and that the secret clearance process is not that bad and sometimes beneficial for jobs in the civil world. Just my penny on the subject.

As long as this remains the 21'st Century +, I don't think an oath is going to matter. At all. It's pretty crazy that a modern country like the U.S still does oaths.The Pledge of Allegiance is nothing short of fascist, in my opinion.

Most of your posts in the past seemed to be very intelligent. This one is simply idiotic.
convex 20 | 3,978
9 Mar 2010 #41
by written law, only citizens of Israel.

I'm not sure about the Israel bit, but it's perfectly legal to be born a dual citizen and have a passport from each of those countries.

Everyone panics about the Patriot Act, etc which supposedly took away some liberties. An average ACLU lawyer would rip apart most of the EU governments and their "liberties" they think are so much better than ours.

It didn't supposedly take away liberties, it did. You should compare the patriot act to the constitution, that's the only thing that matters. European laws are irrelevant.

Other than the right to bear arms in some places, I really can't think of how the one has more freedom in the USA.
skysoulmate 14 | 1,296
9 Mar 2010 #42
I'm not sure about the Israel bit, but it's perfectly legal to be born a dual citizen and have a passport from each of those countries.

You're correct convex and since the US is the only country I know of where you get citizenship by simply being born on our soil (are there other countries that do the same? I don't know) many kids are US citizens AND citizens of their parents country at the same time.

For example when Hong Kong was about to be turned over to the Red China many pregnant Hong Kong'ese (is that a word? ;) women gave birth in the US to give their child "an escape" route just in case. Nothing really happened but there are thousands of about 13 years old kids in Hong Kong with US passports. When they turn 18 they're supposed to chose one citizenship.

However, nowadays dual, sometimes triple or more citizenships are pretty common. Case in point, a friend who's born in Zimbabwe, raised in South Africa, educated in the UK and now lives in the US. I know for a fact she has a South African passport, a British and a US passport. Not sure if she has a Zimbabwe passport too.

The other part of your post I disagree with but won't ruin this thread with pointless discussion on issues we probably won't ever agree on. So lets agree to disagree on that.
convex 20 | 3,978
9 Mar 2010 #43
When they turn 18 they're supposed to chose one citizenship.

That's a myth.

You're correct convex and since the US is the only country I know of where you get citizenship by simply being born on our soil (are there other countries that do the same?

Lots of countries do (or did).

However, nowadays dual, sometimes triple or more citizenships are pretty common. Case in point, a friend who's born in Zimbabwe, raised in South Africa, educated in the UK and now lives in the US. I know for a fact she has a South African passport, a British and a US passport. Not sure about if she has a Zimbabwe passport too.

That's what I was getting at earlier. Allegiance to a single country doesn't mean much anymore in this globalized world.
skysoulmate 14 | 1,296
9 Mar 2010 #44
That's a myth.

Well, don't know enough about this subject so maybe I'm wrong. I found a reference about German-American kids having to chose by the time they turn 23 (?) but I think that's German law.

1. Both the United States and Germany recognize the concept of multiple nationality.
2. A child born to an American parent and a German parent acquires both American and German citizenship at birth, regardless of place of birth (...)
3. A child born in Germany to two American parents may also become a dual national at birth under the circumstances described in paragraph 4 in the section above entitled, "Basic Primer on German Citizenship Law." Under German law, he/she would have to choose between American and German citizenship before turning 23.
[...]

germany.usembassy.gov/acs/dual_nationality.html

Lots of countries do (or did).

Which one(s)?

I remember an immigration attorney helping my friend many moons ago who said the US were very unique in the world in that regard. So what other country can vacation while being pregnant, give birth there and come back home with an application for citizenship in that country for that child?

The title to this thread, which I created, was "dual citizenship". That's all, since I wanted the readers to draw their own conclusions. Why then, somebody added "US doesn't care if you don't give up your Polish passport" ??
WHY??
I would like that addition removed!

I agree, that's just wrong.

The guy/gal created a thread and no one, including the mods, should be changing the thread's title unless it was racist, sexist, etc.
convex 20 | 3,978
9 Mar 2010 #45
Regarding the law in Germany, it's historically been based on the nationality of your parents, birthright was just introduced.

2 pertains to a German-American, that person doesn't have to chose

3 pertains to an American born in Germany, that person has to chose under German law

Which one(s)?

a bunch

wikipedia also mentions that most "developed" countries just recently (last 20 years) revised their laws to put additional restrictions in place.
skysoulmate 14 | 1,296
9 Mar 2010 #46
a bunch

wikipedia also mentions that most "developed" countries just recently (last 20 years) revised their laws to put additional restrictions in place.

Hmm, I stand corrected.

Surprised to see Mexico on that list. In the late 90's my then neighbors welcomed their child much prematurely while in Mexico. The parents were both American but the mother's grandparents came from Mexico so they thought about getting Mexican passport for their daughter to make it easier for them (as a family) to own vacation property there. This was a while back but I could've sworn they gave up the process as they're told they'd have to become citizens of Mexico first before their daughter could follow. Again, that's quite a few years ago.

Overall though as I said I stand corrected.
convex 20 | 3,978
9 Mar 2010 #47
It was surprising to me to see so many countries on that list as well.

Anyway, it's a nice day and I need to get to Bratislava :) First real trip of the year...
skysoulmate 14 | 1,296
9 Mar 2010 #48
I assume you're taking your little bird, correct? It was Sokata, I think? Is filing a flight plan mandatory? Can you just go vfr without any paperwork? What's 100LL or whatever fuel you use go for? That's what I enjoy the most, jump in an airplane and go. Very different from the job aspect.

Happy tailwinds on your trip.
Amathyst 19 | 2,702
9 Mar 2010 #49
The UK has traditions, and meaningless ones at that.

This citizenship bollox is new and not a tradition, they went along the American style route, invented to make foreigners feel special! again...you show your lack of knowledge about these matters.

and you'd still be a citizen if you were born here.

Wrong, being born in the UK doesn NOT give you automatic rights to citizenship if you are a foreigner, although being born to both English parents does give you automatic rights.

Much of the UK system is not written down, but accepted as law simply because it is common practise and common sense.

I think you'll find that our legal system is well documented. What planet are you from, are you actually British?
Amanda91 1 | 135
9 Mar 2010 #50
But what about that oath you take at the US naturalization ceremony, which starts, and I quote:

according to the law, becoming a US citizen you supposed to give up loyalty to other countries.
OP f stop 25 | 2,513
9 Mar 2010 #51
you supposed to give up loyalty to other countries

Yup, that what it says...
On the other hand, do the countries you 'renounce' really care? I wonder if there are any legal precendeces (except for the old case I quoted) where the dissed country uses that against the disser?
Amanda91 1 | 135
9 Mar 2010 #52
to be honest with you I don't know anything specific about it but I strongly assume that the countries of origin probably don't care and let them keep their original citizenship.
OP f stop 25 | 2,513
9 Mar 2010 #53
Thanks. Now that I can understand, not "I absolutely and entirely renounce and abjure all allegiance and fidelity.."
Matowy - | 295
9 Mar 2010 #54
This citizenship bollox is new and not a tradition, they went along the American style route, invented to make foreigners feel special! again...

"to make foreigners feel special" ? Erm, no. It's to give foreigners citizenship. If it was about satisfying warm fuzzy feelings then it wouldn't be a law.

Wrong. For starters, neither parent has to be British (not "English", you moron). At least one of them has to be living in the UK though.

I think you'll find that our legal system is well documented. What planet are you from, are you actually British?

Then is it or is it not a law that the Queen can dismiss parliament if she simply expresses a desire for that to happen? Because according to the law, it is plausible. According to common sense, it is not. Really, the first thing you are supposed to learn about British politics is that not all of it is written down, and many of the old and outdated traditions are still technically in effect. This is GCSE stuff. Maybe you should brush up by taking a course?
OP f stop 25 | 2,513
10 Mar 2010 #55
Pretty good article, touching on most of my concerns, and it even mentions Poland:

escapefromamerica.com/2009/10/how-to-get-us-french-dual-citizenship/
Juche 9 | 292
11 Mar 2010 #56
nice to see u back, PLK123:)
skysoulmate 14 | 1,296
11 Mar 2010 #57
My mother thinks that the only thing I can count on in my old age will be social security.

She's probably right. Of course, by then you'll have to retire at 85 or later to claim it... ;)

On the other hand, do the countries you 'renounce' really care? I wonder if there are any legal precendeces (except for the old case I quoted) where the dissed country uses that against the disser?

The only time this would really matter is if you're in another country (vacation?) and somehow get in trouble. There have been cases where a person supposedly spied on someone or stole something and then if the person had two passports the local government kept playing the two governments against each other. In other words they'd say they do not accept the American embassy representing the suspect since he was an Italian citizen. Then they'd say the same to the Italian embassy representative. I remember reading something similar in the mid 90s and it was an Asian country that was causing trouble. Don't remember how it all ended but I'm sure well or it'd be all over the news back then...

However, those are very unusual cases and I'd say 99.9% of cases are very simple where both embassies usually work together on helping one of their own...
Tymoteusz 2 | 353
11 Mar 2010 #58
It appears that our borders are only meant to keep us in. :)
iwo_bunia
31 Aug 2010 #59
I just came upon this post today. I am considering becoming an US citizen because I live and work here, have children and husband here. I also feel that I understand enough of the American culture that I want to be a part of it as a citizen. On the other hand, I was born in Poland to Polish parents so I feel part of that culture as well. I do not think that there is anything wrong with having dual citizenship. Also, US goverment does not ask anywhere to give up foreign citizenship. Dual citizenship is not welcomed but allowed and tolerated.

Below is a fragment of the official US gov. document:

US State Department Services Dual Nationality
The concept of dual nationality means that a person is a citizen of two countries at the same time. Each country has its own citizenship laws based on its own policy.Persons may have dual nationality by automatic operation of different laws rather than by choice. For example, a child born in a foreign country to U.S. citizen parents may be both a U.S. citizen and a citizen of the country of birth.

A U.S. citizen may acquire foreign citizenship by marriage, or a person naturalized as a U.S. citizen may not lose the citizenship of the country of birth. [...]

canada.usembassy.gov/consular_services/dual-citizenship.html
guesswho 4 | 1,289
18 Sep 2010 #60
It's pretty crazy that a modern country like the U.S still does oaths

You mean in Poland you don't have any?


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