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Who is better informed, the expat or the Polonia crowd?


PlasticPole 7 | 2,650
5 Sep 2012 #61
P3 calls somebody intolerant when he himself is intolerant as hell.

P3 is awesome! Oh nevermind, I thought you meant P3undone and you were talking about Polonius. LOL. My mistake.
4 eigner 2 | 831
5 Sep 2012 #62
that should be their sovereign choice.

no it shouldn't. Adult people should be making adult decisions and if you decided to leave your country behind, you should carry the consequences of it and in this case, learn the language of a country you live in. Btw. you guys are expecting the same thing from us when we live in Poland too.
Polonius3 1,000 | 12,446
5 Sep 2012 #63
But, from what I hear, many of the expats on PF speak halting, fractrued Polish if at all. The pot calling the kettle black?
4 eigner 2 | 831
5 Sep 2012 #64
I'm talking about people who permanently live in the US (or Poland for that matter).
boletus 30 | 1,366
5 Sep 2012 #65
With all due respect, Ziemowit, I profoundly disagree. This is a gross oversimplification. Here you will find a very rich source on various dialects in Poland: gwarypolskie.uw.edu.pl . Malopolska dialect as a whole is described there as being linguistically very diverse. This particular page [/url]discusses common features for this region and shows various boundaries of selected major phonetic and morphological phenomena in Malopolska:

Malopolska - as already emphasized above - is a linguistically very diverse. Complementing discuss the characteristics of the dialect of Malopolska presented below are maps showing the boundaries of the major selected phonetic and morphological phenomena in Malopolska.

gwarypolskie.uw.edu.pl/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=502&Itemid=110

gwarypolskie.uw.edu.pl/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=442&Itemid=43 - A Podhale jargon (sub-dialect) is one of the Małopolska mountain belt dialects, which also includes: Spisz dialect on the east and Orawa plus south Żywiec, west of Podhale. Podhale dialect is internally diverse, due to the extent of the land (about 50 places).This particular page list 16 different dialectal features, specific to Podhale region. Stress on the first syllable is just one of them.

Górale are no other ethnicity than Polish.

Absolutely not true. You forgot about all other influences: German, Rusyn, Hungarian and Walachian colonization.

There are records of the early German settlements, dating back to the beginning of thirteenth century. One is known as a transumpt from 1251 of the privilege from 1234 given by Prince Henryk the Bearded to Teodor Cedro from the Gryfita family, governor of Krakow, allowing him to settle German colonists "in silva circa fluvios Ostrowsko, Dunaiecz et Dunaiecz niger, Rogoźnik, Lipietnicza, Salt , Ratainicha, Nedelsc, Stradom, quantum est de sylva ipsius, Dantes eciam his forces pactis et condicionibus his uti, quibus Theutonici Sleser ses in Sylvis locati utuntur ". ie, the prince of allow for settling of the German colonists (Teutonic Silesians) in the woods near the river Ostrowsko, Dunajec, Czarny Dunajec, Rogoźnik - righ tributary of Czarny Dunajec, Lepietnica - left tributary of Czarny Dunajec and Słona, Ratajnica, Niedzielsko i Stradomka on Beskid.

pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Podhale
From the times of the Gryfita family comes village Rogoźnik, mentioned in a document from 1237. Teodor Cedro, having no children, donated all his estates to Cistercian monks and built for them a church and a monastery at Ludżmierz (5 km west of today's Nowy Targ). They continued establishing new villages on the basis of the Magdeburg Law: Długopole (1327), Krauszów (before 1333), Ludźmierz (1333), Szaflary (1338) and Waksmund and Nowy Targ (around 1287), and later Kolkuszowa. Such activity was made easier for them by a general privilege obtained from King Władyslaw £okietek in 1308, which allowed them establishment of new villages without asking the King for permission first.

At the same time the settlement activity was carried by Śreniawita family, in the Dunajec valley, east of Waksmund. Their representatives, Lasockis, established Dębno (1335), Ostrowsko (before 1338), Harklowa and £opuszna (second half of XIV c.). Consequently the Dunajec valley has been settled in XIII and XIV c. on the W-E line Długopole-Waksmund-Maniowy (Czorsztyn) (about 40 km) and Szaflary, south of Nowy Targ.

The villages were settled on the basis of the German law. It was based on a contract between an organizer of the settlement action (zasadźca) and the owner of the land. The agreement, called the location privilege, stipulated the rights and obligations of the colonists. The land within a certain area, which they had to exploit by cutting down forests and draining swamps, became the hereditary property of its users. The settlers received personal freedom and the right to self-governance, headed by the mayor - usually "zasadźca". Duties for the owner In the land were clearly identified and could not be arbitrarily increased by the owner of the land. They were usually in form of rent payments and other small tributes. During the time needed to clear the land and settle down the settlers were exempt from all fees and charges. It was a period of so-called "wolnizna" ("wolny" - free), and it only applied to the areas where were no previous settlements. The "wolnizna" period was usually 20 years.

Typically, the settlers received one "łan" (łac. laneus, cs. lán, German. Lahn lub Hube - 25 ha in Lesser Poland) and "zasadźca", the hereditary mayor - several to dozens of "łanów" best located. In addition, the mayor had the right to a run tavern, mill, fish ponds, set beehives in the woods, and had hunting and fishing right. He also had the right to settle his own serfs and craftsmen on his own land. In addition, he was entitled to 1/6 of rent collected. "Zasadźcas" were people from various foreign states: Germany, Silesia, the Netherlands, as well as the native nobility and wealthier peasants. For the settlement the German settlers were used. Many names of Podhale villages witness to German colonization of Podhale: Harklowa, Szaflary, Krauszów, Waksmund.

spzaruski.republika.pl/region/Podhale.html#początki_osadnictwa

Regarding Wallachian influence, check, for example, this source: genealogia.okiem.pl/wolosi_slowa.htm
Derivatives of "Wallachian" word in mountain belt dialects:
Wałach, Wołoch, Wałaszyn - (primary meaning) high mountain shepherd, a man tending to sheep. Helpers of the head shepherd - baca, were also called "wałachs". Polish Górale (highlanders) used to call "wałachs" those among themselves who lived in mountain meadows and tended to sheep.

Secondary meaning: Wałach is an inhabitant of mountain region around Cieszyn.

Wałach in the sense of a junior shepherd, has been replaced by Hungarian "juhas" in XII century. Still the term "wałaszek" survives in Podwik village, Podhale.

There are many other words and expressions in Podhale region, involving "wałach":
wałaska, wałaska gromada, wałasznik, wałaśnik, zwyczaje wałaskie, wałaska kasza, taniec wałaski, trąba wałaska, strój wałaski, koszula wałaska, portki wałaskie or wałaszczaki (wałoszczoki), koszula wałaska, burka wałaska, burnus wałaski, wojewoda wałaski (wajda), osadnictwo na prawie wołoskim (settlements based on Wallachian Law (rule)) , etc.

Geographical names of Walachian origin, cover entire Carpathian belt and Balkans. See here: pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazwy_geograficzne_pochodzenia_wo%C5%82oskiego
Here are few familiar examples:
from bjêska - a mountain meadow, come various mountain ranges: Beskid, Beskidy, Beskidek, Beskidnik (Wetlina, Bieszczad, Bieszczady, Byskid, Byskyd
from chica - hair, beard and chicera - bearded mountain, come names of mountain peaks: Kiczera, Kiczora, Kyczera, Kiczerka, Kiczura, Kiczurka, Keczar, Kieczera, Kikula
from coliba - a hut comes koleba or koliba - a shepherd hut
from grui - a hill, a peak comes Podhalian "groń", an elevated shore of a river or stream. Also "grań" means ridge of a mountain top or a crag: Groń, Gronik, Hruń, Hron

from istep - a settlement, istŭba - a tent, old Ruthenian istobka - bathroom: Istebna (Poland), Istebné (Slovakia - Orava)
from izvor - a spring: Zwor (Stuposiany), Zwur, Zworzec (Dwernik), Zwir, Wirski (Wołosate), Zwory (Lutowiska), Na Zworcach (Sianki), Zverovka (Slovakia - Orava)
from măgura - a stand alone massif, also from Old Slavic maguła "mogiła" - a grave: Magura, Magurka, Magurki, Maguryczne, Magurzec, Maguryczny

from repede - rapid (here: about the current of a river): Rzepedź
from sălaş - a shelter: Szałas, Sałasz, Sałasziszcze, Sałaszisna/Sałaszczisna (Dwerniczek), Sałasyszcze (Krywe), Sałaszyce/Szałaszyszcze (Stuposiany, Szalasziszcze (Wołosate), Szałasisko

Native vocabulary of Podhale dialects
A major characteristics of Podhale dialects is presence of native words, which do not exist in any other Polish dialect.
They are: ciupaga (hatchet), wyzdajać (invent, prepare), złóbcoki (a musical instrument similar to fiddle), nomowiać (to advice to marriage), kumoterki (a decorative sled), pytac (an older man whose role is to invite guests for a wedding) and more. There many words specific to Zakopane - both native and borrowed. In Podhale dialect there are many words that do not exist beyond the mountains: piarg (a rock mound), perć ( mountain path), siklawa (mountain waterfalli), as well as activities related to shepherding and mountain lifestyle: bacówka (shepherd's shelter), bryndza (specific sheep cheeses), koliba (shelter), watra (shepherd's campfire), zawaterniok (a log to to maintain fire), dutki (money), dziedzina (village), moskol (cake made with boiled potatoes and flour), serdok (sleevless sheepskin jacket), styrmać sie (climb, climb up) and many other words.

In some cases, the Podhale vocabulary is more accurate than the corresponding nationwide language. Examples: siano (= hey from the first cut) vs. potrow (= hey from the second cut); watra (= campfire inside a shelter) vs. ogiyń (= fire, campfire in the field).

There are many borrowings from other languages: German: hamry (= forges); Hungarian: baca (= head shepherd), juhas (junior shepherd); Slovakian: frajier (= a lover), hore (= up, upside), héboj (= come), pościel (= a bed); Wallachian: watra, bryndza.
OP sobieski 107 | 2,128
5 Sep 2012 #66
But, from what I hear, many of the expats on PF speak halting, fractrued Polish if at all. The pot calling the kettle black?

But where does that leave you, living in fictitious Polonialand?
f stop 25 | 2,513
5 Sep 2012 #67
back to fighting about language... sheesh
SeanBM 35 | 5,808
5 Sep 2012 #68
Dont' be so horse-blinkered and intolerant.

I'm horse-blinkered and intolerant because I think emigrants in a country should learn the basic language skills of their host country?

And how many languages are spoken in the U.S? probably most languages, you're fairy tale world is exactly that, a fairy tale.

It is striking that you are making excuses for people living in a country who don't speak the basics language of the host country. I didn't mean this as a personal attack on you but I stand by what I said.
pawian 187 | 17,898
5 Sep 2012 #69
Who is better informed, the expat or the Polonia crowd?

Nope.

After long meditatiom, I think Mossad is the best informed of all.
Polonius3 1,000 | 12,446
5 Sep 2012 #70
Those people, the grandparetns and great-grandparents of most of today's Polish AMericans (90% of whom are US-born), came before World War One, worked hard, sarcificed, raised families, built churches and schools, had modest but well kept-up houses, kept theri kids out of trouble, paid their taxes and did more than theri share fighting in World War Two in the US Army. If their english was less than fluent, they caused no trouble for the US of A. Later minorities would go on rampages, burn and kill and turn decent neighbourhoods into slums in no time. They looked for hand-outs and received affirmative action. That early generations of Polish-born immigrants pulled thermselves up by their own boot-straps and were too proud do accept charity. They did not do anything that their descendants would have to be ashamed of.
SeanBM 35 | 5,808
5 Sep 2012 #71
did more than theri share fighting in World War Two in the US Army. If their english was less than fluent, they caused no trouble for the US of A.

How could they fight in the army if they could not speak English?
teflcat 5 | 1,032
5 Sep 2012 #72
Later minorities would go on rampages, burn and kill and turn decent neighbourhoods into slums in no time. They looked for hand-outs and received affirmative action.

Who are you talking about, speedy? Sounds like you are referring to 'African-Americans'. If so, would you like to change the bit about

Later minorities

Forgive me if I'm wrong. Please clarify.
Harry
5 Sep 2012 #73
If their english was less than fluent, they caused no trouble for the US of A. Later minorities would go on rampages, burn and kill and turn decent neighbourhoods into slums in no time.

Interesting point. But one made somewhat moot by the events in 1919 in the city with the second largest number of Polish inhabitants in the world, i.e. Chicago, where white men organised what in Poland would have been referred to as a pogrom. Unfortunately for those gentlemen, there was a severe shortage of their traditional prey, so they had to use black men in place of Jews.

Sadly the foul racism displayed by Polonius3 has long characterised much of Polonia.
jadis
6 Sep 2012 #74
Using IRISH white men to insinuate that Poles are racists and anti-Semites. Superb provocation.
Meathead 5 | 497
6 Sep 2012 #75
Interesting point. But one made somewhat moot by the events in 1919 in the city with the second largest number of Polish inhabitants in the world, i.e. Chicago

That was the Irish, not the Poles. Chicago used to have the largest Polish population in the World. It may still be the case.

and did more than theri share fighting in World War Two in the US Army. If their english was less than fluent, they caused no trouble for the US of A

I met a Canadian fellow a few years back and we had a chat about immigration between Canada and the US. His comments and I'm paraphrasing"... America did much better in integrating it's immigrants. When I was in WWII I was surprised at how well the Polish-Americans spoke English while our Ukrainian immigrants didn't know enough English to serve in the Army."

Contemplative religous orders freely choose peace,

The Inquisition wasn't peaceful. Child molestation isn't peaceful.
Polonius3 1,000 | 12,446
6 Sep 2012 #76
teflcat
Google Watts riots out in LA, or Detroit's 12th Street in 1967...
Harry
6 Sep 2012 #77
That was the Irish, not the Poles.

Well that certainly is an interesting variation on the standard excuse, i.e. "They weren't Poles! They were Ukrainian / German / Russian / Belarussian / Jews!"
SeanBM 35 | 5,808
6 Sep 2012 #78
"... America did much better in integrating it's immigrants. When I was in WWII I was surprised at how well the Polish-Americans spoke English while our Ukrainian immigrants didn't know enough English to serve in the Army."

Which brings me back to my point that emigrants ought to know the basic language skills of their host country.

No excuses PS3.
OP sobieski 107 | 2,128
6 Sep 2012 #79
Exactly, for somebody who thinks Polonia is some kind of religion, he also should speak the language properly.
Polonius3 1,000 | 12,446
6 Sep 2012 #80
speak the language properly

Which language did you have in mind?
OP sobieski 107 | 2,128
6 Sep 2012 #81
Polish. After all you are living in Polonialand, so you should speak the lingo perfectly.
Me, as an immigrant from Belgium speak Polish quite well - far from perfect -, but hey, I am not part of the Polonialand church.

But then again, I think if you move to another country, you should master its language. It is matter of respect.
You think that somebody is part of the Polonia sect, he/she is entitled to speak only Polish wherever he/she lives.
mafketis 34 | 11,899
6 Sep 2012 #82
my point that emigrants ought to know the basic language skills of their host country.

Shouldn't that be addressed to Harry who is openly proud of his ignorance of Polish?
jadis
6 Sep 2012 #83
Well that certainly is an interesting variation on the standard excuse, i.e. "They weren't Poles! They were Ukrainian / German / Russian / Belarussian / Jews!"

It's even more interesting to observe how far are you going to stretch the definition of "the Polish person" -- to include Irish people -- in your favorite 'paint Poles and Polonia in worst possible light' sport. You must be pretty desperate to go that far.
Meathead 5 | 497
7 Sep 2012 #84
Well that certainly is an interesting variation on the standard excuse, i.e. "They weren't Poles! They were Ukrainian / German / Russian / Belarussian / Jews!"

Harry you misunderstand, there are lots of other ethnic groups in Chicago (Poles just happen to be the largest). The 1919 race riots were between the Irish immigrants and the blacks. Actually in the States the Poles are quite ambivalent towards race (quite unlike what's posted on here).

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chicago_Race_Riot_of_1919
f stop 25 | 2,513
7 Sep 2012 #85
Anyone else finds this humorous? Ouspensky: ““Man is a machine which reacts blindly to external forces and, this being so, he has no will, and very little control of himself, if any at all. What we have to study, therefore, is not psychology - for that applies only to a developed man - but mechanics. Man is not only a machine but a machine which works very much below the standard it would be capable of maintaining if it were working properly.”

Edit: this is a commentary on a much wider subject. ;)
boletus 30 | 1,366
7 Sep 2012 #86
Poles just happen to be the largest

Not even close.
Chicago, ancestry (2007 survey):
African American: 37% => (1,054,469)
Spanish or Latino: 23% => (741,330)
Irish: (201,836)
German: (200,392)
Polish: (179,868)
Italian: (96,599)
English: (60,307)
...
Total: (2,851,268)
Meathead 5 | 497
7 Sep 2012 #87
At one point there were over a million (1960's?) in Chicago. But they moved to the Burbs!

From Wikipedia, en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poles_in_Chicago:

"...However, Polish Americans are, by far, the largest European American ethnic group in the Chicago metropolitan area, with as many as 1.5 million claiming Polish ancestry"
boletus 30 | 1,366
7 Sep 2012 #88
However, Polish Americans are, by far, the largest European American ethnic group in the Chicago metropolitan area, with as many as 1.5 million claiming Polish ancestry

- From Wikipedia
That's Chicago Metropolitan Area, a.k.a. Chicagoland. Asides Chicago proper, it includes four major cities with over 100,000 population each and more than 20 towns with over 50,000 population each - some in Illinois, some in Indiana, and some in Wisconsin. The estimates vary, depending on the method of counting - either MSA (Metropolitan Statistical Area), or CSA (Combined Statistical Area, which combines the metropolitan areas of Chicago, Michigan City (in Indiana), and Kankakee (in Illinois).

Chicago-Naperville-Joliet, IL-IN-WI MSA 9,461,105 (2010 census)
Chicago-Naperville- Joliet, IL-IN-WI CSA 9,686,021 (2010 census)
In such defined Chicago Metropolitan Area the estimate of 1.5 millions of Polish ancestry makes sense. However, my numbers (2007 census) referred to Chicago proper area, with total population of 2,851,268, and Polish population being the fifth largest group of 179,868 (6.3%) - after African American, Latinos, Irish and German. The source you quoted gives slightly different, and obviously manipulated numbers:

As of the 2000 U.S. census, Poles in Chicago are the largest European American ethnic group in the city, making up 7.3% of the total population. However, according to the 2006-2008 American Community Survey, German Americans and Irish Americans combined had slightly surpassed Polish Americans as the largest European American ethnic groups in Chicago. German Americans made up 7.3% of the population, and numbered at 199,789; Irish Americans also made up 7.3% of the population, and numbered at 199,294. Polish Americans now made up 6.7% of Chicago's population, and numbered at 182,064.

- from en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poles_in_Chicago
What do they mean by "German Americans and Irish Americans combined slightly surpassed"? This is nothing but spoofing the data. Even by their own numbers Germans (199,689 - 7.3%) and Irish (199,294 - 6.7%) each exceeds number of Poles (182,064 - 6.3% (not 7.3%, calculate it yourself)) in Chicago proper.

I do not understand a need for engineering the statistics: It is clear that, according to their numbers from 2000 census, we have this:
3. Germans 7.3%, 199,789
4. Irish 6.7%, 199, 264
5. Polish 6.3% 182,064
The data I posted in #89, were taken from 2007, and were different - in this order: 3. Irish, 4. German, 5. Polish
OP sobieski 107 | 2,128
7 Sep 2012 #89
Why the Polonialand sect votes overwhelmingly for PIS (70% if I can trust the figures on this forum), whereas the Poles vote 70% against the smolenkists?
Polonius3 1,000 | 12,446
7 Sep 2012 #90
Beacuase Polonians are not bamboozled by glib, slick and slippery tricky Don, a true mafia don in white gloves.
It will be a great day for Poland and Polonia when Donald T. is led away in handcuffs.


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