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Who is better informed, the expat or the Polonia crowd?


SeanBM 35 | 5,808
4 Sep 2012 #31
And marrying within one's own religon or ethnic group is among the most important common values.

You live in America, you left your ethnic group and the majority of Americans are not RC and abide by the "selfish 'me myself and I' times" yourself.

Living in another culture, must be a difficult challenge for you but living outside of one's place of birth can pose insurmountable obstacles, especially when the kids come along.

One thing often forgotten by those 'emigrants' is that you are also leaving your parents place of birth, other family members and lots of other people, places and ways of doing things that may seem normal. Leaving your place of birth compound the whole shebang. That does not mean they can never work, but they require a hell of a lot more effort, understanding and sacrifice.

Were you ever married PS3?
Harry
4 Sep 2012 #32
If two people who liked to drink or fancied the opera or hang-gliding or were of the same educaitonal level married, you wouldn't call it racist.

Quite right. But the person in question is discriminating based solely on race, i.e. he is a racist.

And marrying within one's own religon or ethnic group is among the most important common values.

Among racists, most certainly.
4 eigner 2 | 831
4 Sep 2012 #33
Who is better informed, the expat or the Polonia crowd?

the answer is, whoever cares to be informed but it certainly helps to live in Poland to know more about it.
Polonius3 1,000 | 12,446
4 Sep 2012 #34
i have never left my homeland -- the American Polonia. I was born a Polonian and continued to be one while in Poland I have never left or abandoned Polonia and do nto intend to. That is my homeland. And yes I am married within my own ethnic fold.
teflcat 5 | 1,032
4 Sep 2012 #35
Almost brings a tear to the eye. Er... you do realize that Polonia is not a real place, don't you?
One thing I want to know about starry-eyed Pol-ams. Purely hypothetical, crazily improbable situation. The USA goes to war with Europe. Poland joins her European allies against the Great Satan. Who's side are you on?
Polonius3 1,000 | 12,446
4 Sep 2012 #36
Polonia is a state of mind, not a place; it's a state of awarenss and belonging.
teflcat 5 | 1,032
4 Sep 2012 #37
...and the second question? Bear in mind that Homeland Security is no doubt monitoring you.
Polonius3 1,000 | 12,446
4 Sep 2012 #38
It woudl largely depend on what the war was over. Luckily, unlike Germans and Japs, Poland and America were never at war. During the cold war the PRL puppet state was opposed by patriots in Poland (who had to lie low and pretend to be 'za socjalizmem' to feed their famlies) and across Polonia who more vociferously opposed the red Soviet-installed regime.

BTW, one of the few good things the PRL puppet state did was to create Cepelia. It provided a livelihood to thousands of homsepun folk artists and also helped preserve the coutnry's folk culture around the globe.
teflcat 5 | 1,032
4 Sep 2012 #39
It woudl largely depend on what the war was over.

So no unequivocal pledge of alleigance to the USA, the country of your birth. puk puk.
4 eigner 2 | 831
4 Sep 2012 #40
Great Satan

???

Is that what you really think about the US? I hope not because despite our different political views, I always thought you're a smart guy.
Polonius3 1,000 | 12,446
4 Sep 2012 #41
teflcat
Of coruse not. If the Obamists were to attack Poland to force it at gunpoint to introrduce abortion on demand and dispense free condoms to 13 year olds, then no decent person could support that, could they?
teflcat 5 | 1,032
4 Sep 2012 #42
Of course I don't! I have a great deal of respect for the achievements of the US. Having said that the country also scares the sh1t out of me with its creationists and alien abductees, etc.
Peter_H 3 | 47
4 Sep 2012 #43
I think the premise is somewhat misleading and both parties have a certain advantage. Many of the Polonia crowd will have had a fairly usual Polish upbringing thanks to their parents - regardless of the country they were brought up in - this gives them a unique insight into the culture and history of the country. However, they also exist in a microcosm of Polish society, one that is often dated, and one that is no longer similar to the Poland of today. This is where expats have the advantage.

There is little substitute for living in a country and expats have far better idea of what life is like in Poland today.There is caveat to this in that many expats are completely disengaged from what is happening in Poland. They eat, drink and talk with other expats. I think one of the better barometers of this is whether an expat can speak the language - to some degree or another and depending how long they have been here - it's not only essential to truly understanding what's going on around you but shows an engagement with the country.

There are, I kid you not, expats who have been here for 10 years and still cannot speak Polish.

This 'ethnic fold' stuff is absolute bunk. It's enjoyed support from such luminaries as the Ku Klux Klan, the Saudi Arabian government and Hitler.
Polonius3 1,000 | 12,446
4 Sep 2012 #44
Creationists are exercising their freedom of belief, but the UFO and alien-lovers are victims of yet another popculture ploy. And those those churning out the literature, DVDs, gadgets, T-shirts and staging shows and sessions are raking in the dough. There's a sucker born every minute.
dtaylor5632 18 | 2,007
4 Sep 2012 #45
but the UFO and alien-lovers are victims of yet another popculture ploy.

You think in a universe as infinitely large, no other forms of life can exist?
OP sobieski 107 | 2,128
4 Sep 2012 #46
There are, I kid you not, expats who have been here for 10 years and still cannot speak Polish.

Yes that is true, I know one who lives here indeed 10 years and the only Polish word he knows is "piwo". Well...maybe not like that but for sure he is not able to do a normal conversation in Polish. Which for me is not only ignorance, but also shows a profound lack of disrespect for the country he is living in.
Polonius3 1,000 | 12,446
4 Sep 2012 #47
If somene was born of Polish parents in Cardiff and spends a decade living in Lublin, is he a Polonian or an expat?
Ironside 51 | 11,339
4 Sep 2012 #48
Well, I would say it depends. I think that likes of sobieski or few others whom cannot even speak Polish properly and their circles of friends is very limited, cannot as that often do claim that they know all about Poland. that bonkers \
OP sobieski 107 | 2,128
4 Sep 2012 #49
It is a sense of healthy etnhic pride,

Meaning what exactly? This smells suspiciously of "Blut und Boden", and we all know where that lead to.
Which ethnic pride? The ethnic pride of the Smolenkists?
Of course this explains why you think Polonialandists should marry with one of their own...to keep the blood pure...

My wife for example is a true Góralka, family ancestry can be traced back 400 years. And you know what? She considers herself first of a all a Góralka, and then Polish. As do many Górale. How would you classify her?

And the Kaszuby, who have a distinct ethnicity, other language, but also are Polish?
The Lemkos and the Mazurians? Also non-Poles?
4 eigner 2 | 831
4 Sep 2012 #50
There are, I kid you not, expats who have been here for 10 years and still cannot speak Polish.

"There are, I kid you not", Poles in the US who have been here for over 30 years and still don't speak English (met a Polish female from Chicago who lived here for 33 years and speaks very poor English).
Polonius3 1,000 | 12,446
4 Sep 2012 #51
In the language sphere freedom of choice should prevail. A person not speaking the host country's language fluently usually limtis himself/herself in terms of job opportunites. However if they choose to live and work in a Polish ethnic neighbourhood where they can get by without much English, that should be their sovereign choice. The US for one does not have any anti-foreign-language laws, in fact they bend over bakcwards to accommodate Hispanics, various Orientals and in Chicago, at least ,Poles who are able to attend school in a bilingual format and take driving tests in their native tongue.

As long as they are not breaking immigration or economic laws, Poland's Vietnamese should not be forced by law to learn Polish if they don't want to. Neither should PF expats be attacked or ridiculed for not knowing Polish well. Lithuania is using heavy-handed tactics to force non-Lithuanian citizens to learn Lithuanian and penalising them if they don't.
legend 3 | 664
5 Sep 2012 #52
I lived in Warsaw and then left Poland as a kid in the early 80s. Visit every so often.
Does that make me Polonia member or Expat? Im not exactly sure on the differences.
f stop 25 | 2,513
5 Sep 2012 #53
of course somebody living in the country would KNOW more about Poland.
But, they'd also be more surprised at things they see and hear, while somebody born and raised in Poland, even though not living there, innately understands.

Inherent characteristics, like, I don't know, Polish skepticism, certain reserve with strangers, damn, even the certainty that an apocalypse is coming.. I attribute those to my Polishness.

So, you guys living in Poland might know more about her, but that does not mean that you understand her better.
Meathead 5 | 497
5 Sep 2012 #54
Peter_H]

Good post!

i have never left my homeland -- the American Polonia. I was born a Polonian and continued to be one while in Poland I have never left or abandoned Polonia and do nto intend to. That is my homeland. And yes I am married within my own ethnic fold.

Actually, I don't think Polonia exists either. You're either American or Polish. Some Poles hang onto their Polish language and culture but over time Poland moves on and one loses touch with the Mother country. My great grandparents were all born in Poland but it would be futile for me to hang onto a culture from 100 years ago. I mean the Polish my ancestors spoke is probably not legible by modern standards (that's what they told me before they died, they said they spoke "kitchen Polish"). No, I am quite comfortable being American even if some or all of you think of us as the Great Satan. For some reason Polonius 3 is not comfortable being American. I come here for the social good time. It's fun to read all the squabbles, mostly between the British men and the Polish women.

You live in America, you left your ethnic group and the majority of Americans are not RC and abide by the "selfish 'me myself and I' times" yourself.

There is no more of a selfish philosophy than the Roman Catholic "Contemplative Life". It's all about me and me and Jesus. "I'll take these perpetual vows and suffer and sacrifice now and be rewarded later." It's all about being rewarded. Christianity is about giving your neighbor the benefit of the doubt, even if you don't agree with them.
Polonius3 1,000 | 12,446
5 Sep 2012 #55
The great thing about America is that everyone is free to espouse the cultural norms and language he/she feels the most comfortable in. There is no official ban on religion* as there is v Christians in Saudi Arabia, nor does the governmnt impose penalties (like Lithuania does) for not learning or using the host language. You can write 'paczki do Polski' or 'polska piekarnia' on your plate glass window and police will not show up to fine you. (If you live in or near a black ghetto, you'd better but steel bars on the windows!)

In the late 19th and early 20th century there were all kind of nativist groups of 200% WASPs, the Know-Noithing Party, etc. who tried to WASP-ify** the immigrant or openly told him: *Go back to where you came from.' But luckily America has overcome those growing pains. Now it's the backward Brits that produce the most anti-Polish graffiti and sloganeering, if the UK media reporting such incidents are any indication.

*Anti-Christian themes (including destroying Christmas dispalys) permeate the activites of the ACLU loonies other such fanatical groups and are backed by the leftist-liberal media, but thankfully that is not official US government policy,

**WASP = White Anglo-Saxon Protestant.

Contemplative life may be the way to go for certain people. Contemplative religous orders freely choose peace, silence, prayer and hard work over the rat race, and that is their civil right. But they also add their temporal contribution to the world by producing farm produce, making cheeses, wines, wicker baskets, coffins, etc. for their fellow man.

Is deriding and debasing such people your 'enliightened' idea of tolerance?
SeanBM 35 | 5,808
5 Sep 2012 #56
As long as they are not breaking immigration or economic laws, Poland's Vietnamese should not be forced by law to learn Polish if they don't want to. Neither should PF expats be attacked or ridiculed for not knowing Polish well.

I actually disagree to an extent.
Basic language skills of your host country is important, I am not saying that they should serve jail time for not speaking the local tongue but I personally think that people must be able to say the basics in the local language.

For several reasons, respect for the host countries traditions, easier integration and all the extra money that would need to be spent on health, police, translators and education to compensate for the lazy bugger who doesn't even try to speak the local lingo.

But Polish-Americans do not need to speak Polish.
English or Spanish which is the leading language in the U.S. these days?) would suffice.
Ziemowit 13 | 4,343
5 Sep 2012 #57
I mean the Polish my ancestors spoke is probably not legible by modern standards (that's what they told me before they died, they said they spoke "kitchen Polish").

I can assure you that Polish spoken (in the kitchen or anywhere else) 100 years ago would be fully legible today, the differences in declension or pronounciation would only be minor, and with some words in the vocabulary of your ancestors, very few indeed, being extinct today.

My wife for example is a true Góralka, family ancestry can be traced back 400 years. And you know what? She considers herself first of a all a Góralka, and then Polish. As do many Górale. How would you classify her?

As well as the Kashubians, the Górale may and like to feel somewhat different than the rest of us, the Polish in Poland. But in contrast to the Kashubians, who are descendants of the Pomeranians, an ethnicaly different tribe from the Polish tribes in the Middle Ages, the Górale are no other ethnicity than Polish. The most distinct feature of their dialect, the stress on the first syllable rather than on the one-before-last, as elsewhere in Poland, is also of purely Polish origin which their ancestors, the Malopolans, took with themselves to the Tatra region while moving in there in the14th century when this feature of the language was an all-nation one which only lasted for a rather short period in all other parts of Poland, but has remained unchanged ever since then among those Malopolans who moved to the Tatra region and stayed there relatively more isolated from the rest of the country.
Polonius3 1,000 | 12,446
5 Sep 2012 #58
Dont' be so horse-blinkered and intolerant. There are many human situations which defy simple cubbyholing. Someone with a family of five or six to support may have to work his backside off in Chicago or Greenpoint and have little time or enegry left over to take ESL courses. at night. The bastard's gotta sleep you know! By the time the kids are all off on their own, he may be too old to get much out of language schooling.

I knew many Poles who had been 50 years of so in America but were not conversant in English. THEY DIDN'T HAFTA BE! In American big-city Polish neighbourhoods the police and fire briagde, the doctors and utility companies, the insurance agnets, banks, shopkeepers and undertakers they dealt with all spoke Polish. So, contrary to your suggestion,they did not encumber taxpayers with translation fees. Things may ber different in the UK these days, where Polish concentration is far lower, but I am speaking about neighboruhoods that once were 85-90% erthncally Polish. There were even blacks who spoke Polish -- I remember our postman Julius who could hold his own with his Polish-speaking householders.
pgtx 30 | 3,156
5 Sep 2012 #59
Intolerant? P3 calls somebody intolerant when he himself is intolerant as hell.
P3, in you last post you talk about the past, in past tense. It is time to for Polonia get out from under a rock, move on and Educate themselves!!

P3, in your posts, you put Poland and Polish people back in middle ages.
Harry
5 Sep 2012 #60
Jesus H Christ on a bike: a post by PGTX and I agree with every single word!


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