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Polish-Americans as seen in the false mirror. Type A and Type B.


Softsong 5 | 495
13 Jun 2011 #91
it's impossible to determine why people do and say what they do unless you really know them

We are in agreement. I have merely stated a psychological principle that is true in general. People rarely like to admit something was a bad idea. It makes them look stupid. I am sure there are some who behave as a B type for that reason. I am not saying this about any one particular person.

What I have attempted to do is to understand why a B might act like a B type. And to understand why it seems that there are so many more B people than A people. For the most part, I believe B behavior results from those who left Poland unhappy with how it was when they left, and so they complain the most about Poland today. I believe that the majority of people who leave Poland like where they are now, but also are quite positive about their homeland. Thus they are the A type.

It is a well-known business principle that customers or anybody who is unhappy with a situation are the most vocal about it. Thus, the presence of more B like people on the forum.
PennBoy 76 | 2,436
13 Jun 2011 #92
Make trolls pay the new Forum engine, see?

I think you have some kind of a resentment for Poles in the States
OP Antek_Stalich 5 | 997
13 Jun 2011 #93
For the Type B, absolutely, yes. I love the Type A people, though.
PennBoy 76 | 2,436
13 Jun 2011 #94
But you mistakenly label type As as type Bs because they don't see eye to eye with you and what is patriotic and good for Poland.
OP Antek_Stalich 5 | 997
13 Jun 2011 #95
The most important are clear Rules; and the Sponshorship Plan, Al. The technicalities are a trifle.

I wonder if Steelarmored would trade 24 cans of beer for the right to say anything he pleases. And probably warszawski would prefer saving the money for his family -- which I support very much.

But you mistakenly label type As as type Bs because they don't see eye to eye with you and what is patriotic and good for Poland.

True and false. People Type A come to Poland from time to time and I meet them. People Type B have no reason to come to Poland as to the most hopeless place in the world.
guesswho 4 | 1,289
13 Jun 2011 #96
it seems that there are so many more B people than A people

I'll be honest with you my friend, I don't like to categorize people for the reasons I described above. Everyone behaves differently for different reasons and this whole thing about A and B might be very illusive. What I'm trying to say is that someone who you classify as an A PolAm might be really a B PolAm or the other way around. We would have to know every case really good to determine any of it.

I personally believe that everyone is who he feels he is. There's no reason to categorize people as it won't do justice to many of them. By the end of categorizing, we'll probably find out that many of those A and B PolAms are really a little bit of both or none of it at all.
OP Antek_Stalich 5 | 997
13 Jun 2011 #97
Guessie, I believe you are an American (not a PolAm). Tell me,
1. If you could, would you attempt to vote for a foreign politician only knowing his political programme from the media and not living in the distant country?

2. Given you immigrated to some distant country, would you stick to American enclaves or try to melt with your new country-people? (given the country were decent and safe?)
Softsong 5 | 495
13 Jun 2011 #98
I don't like to categorize people for the reasons I described above.

Neither do I, nor have I, or will I say who I think is who. It to me is a purely hypothetical discussion and the designation A or B is just helpful to describe what it is we are discusiing. No more, no less.

I have been shocked at how many people who were born in Poland appear to have nothing good to say about Poland. And so, while not an expert in Poland, I have many times added what I view as positive about Poland. To me, each time I visit, I see life improving and it is certainly a place where one could live a good life. I remember from history and my friends when it was not always so.

People often wonder if those who put down Poland on this forum represent the typical Polish viewpoint. While no such thing exists, it is safe to say that there seem to be a lot of detractors on this forum. My personal theory is that the majority of people are not detractors, they are just less vocal. In real life there seems to be many more who would be classified as A, if such a classification really existed.
guesswho 4 | 1,289
13 Jun 2011 #99
I have been shocked at how many people who were born in Poland appear to have nothing good to say about Poland.

yes softie but this is a very human behavior to criticize what one knows best as one has more information about it than about anything else but it doesn't mean that they hate it. They probably love Poland, it's just that they see how many things still need improvement there. I was there too and yes, it is a nice country and many nice people live there too but (as nothing in the world) it's not perfect. As a tourist who visits Poland for just a few weeks, you tend to see mainly the positives of it and the longer you live there, you start seeing the real side of it and that usually blows your bubble as it is with any other country too.
PennBoy 76 | 2,436
13 Jun 2011 #100
True and false. People Type A come to Poland from time to time and I meet them. People Type B have no reason to come to Poland as to the most hopeless place in the world.

Fair enough. I've been back to Poland 7 times do I qualify as a type A ? :)
I know what you mean i know a few Poles that don't even go back and when someone asks them about Poland how is it say something negative like "there's nothing there to see" that's wrong. That's just enforcing old false stereotypes about Poland.
Patrycja19 63 | 2,699
13 Jun 2011 #101
I'd welcome thoughts on the level of Polams' understanding of Poland's matters. Thank you.

Why is that important for you if the Polams are pretty much

Whatever, type (A) or (B), many PolAms (I'd say, most of them) live in their own world completely torn off the Poland's reality.

This, however, gives them about the same understanding as a Poland's Pole could gather on internal American affairs...

you have already formed your opinion.. why ask the same questions over and over.

you want to know my opinion...

I will learn more from someone who is willing to give me a chance. tell me that every Polish
person is active in Political affairs, tell me they can give me answers on all of Polands affairs
and tell me about every policy there is to know...

not everyone has interest in politics, so why would someone make a statement about the
US polonia who from my views are only trying to help..

I appreciate that they might not be helping, and wouldnt have total acess to govt, Unless this
is what they have studied and are part of a political circle..

And just because there are Jealous political fruitcakes from the UK cutting grass in their new
backyard, hey good for you, you moved from point A to Point B

American Polonia Was there during the war, from my understanding of it was fighting to get this
govt to help.. because people were dying, our relatives.. my grandparents belonged to it.

Even though they left for a better life, they didnt say, oh well, you know what, hitler is going
to kill a few of our relatives off, so yeah, lets move way before that happens so we dont get
obliterated too.

no one predicted it except nostradamus and thats all it was, even now, no one can predict
the future of either country.. its uncertain , I was told my father and mother survived a recession
in the 1930s, do you think that I would have thought in 2009 that I would survive one as well?

I think the backwards thinking /assumptions that people dont want to care or dont care is
retarded.. I openly admit I dont know every current affair going on in Poland, does every Polish
or currently applying to be Polish citizen formerly british know everything about the United states?

show me one person who can recite them all.

Plus, I dont get all the Concentrated focus on American Polonia, when there are Canadian
Polonia, Austrailian Polonia, United kingdom Polonia.. etc etc

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polonia
guesswho 4 | 1,289
13 Jun 2011 #102
1. If you could, would you attempt to vote for a foreign politician only knowing his political programme from the media and not living in the distant country?

I personally wouldn't but I don't see any problem really when others do it if they feel the connection with Poland.

2. Given you immigrated to some distant country, would you stick to American enclaves or try to melt with your new country-people? (given the country were decent and safe?)

you're asking me questions that one is only able to answer for himself but really, no matter what my answer is, it doesn't stand for millions of other people. Yes, I'd feel American for the rest of my life, no matter where I would live.
OP Antek_Stalich 5 | 997
13 Jun 2011 #103
Fair enough. I've been back to Poland 7 times do I qualify as a type A ? :)

I've been to the US 3 times. Do I qualify as an American?

Patrycja, it is somewhat hard to me to get your point. Of what I have understood:

-- My opinion is my own opinion but I wanted to gather other opinions, including yours;
-- There is no doubt Polonia everywhere helped Poland in hard times. Have you, however, noticed that now, when the times are not so hard, there is significant polarization of views, making types A and B?

-- Can we leave the Nostradamus thing aside?
-- I believe there is grace period in the US, so the new applicant has some time between receiving the green card and saying the oath to become a new US citizen, therefore, the applicant can learn something about the US?

-- In fact, I have forgotten about PolOzzies (which I corrected later). I mentioned both PolAms and PolCans in my original post. PolBrits can travel to Poland easily now.

I'd just want to tell you my Dad was a PolOzzie for 6 years in 1950's.

I personally wouldn't but I don't see any problem really when others do it if they feel the connection with Poland.

You misunderstood me. Would you vote for President of Chile or Mexico only based on media information but not living in Chile or Mexico yourself? And please do not say for others. The question was personally directed to you. "Would you...?"
guesswho 4 | 1,289
13 Jun 2011 #104
do I qualify as a type A ? :)

OK, let me measure your skull first (if you know what I mean) :-)

You misunderstood me. Would you vote for President of Chile or Mexico only based on media information but not living in Chile or Mexico yourself? And please do not say for others. The question was personally directed to you. "Would you...?"

No, I wouldn't vote for a president of Chile or Mexico :-)
PennBoy 76 | 2,436
13 Jun 2011 #105
I've been to the US 3 times. Do I qualify as an American?

It's gonna be 20 years since i came here on July 1st. You just visited. Me visiting Canada didn't make me a Canadian.

Yes, I'd feel American for the rest of my life, no matter where I would live.

But probably over 10, 20 years of living in that "distant" land you'd feel you're both. Some people on this forum say ignorant stuff like 'you have to choose one" when they've never lived a day in another country.
guesswho 4 | 1,289
13 Jun 2011 #106
But probably over 10, 20 years of living in that "distant" land you'd feel you're both. Some people on this forum say ignorant stuff like 'you have to chose one" when they've never lived a day in another country.

PB, this is very personal and from case to case different. It's a same with people, some stay together for the rest of their days (after getting married) and some love to change partners. In my personal case, I'm married for life.
Patrycja19 63 | 2,699
13 Jun 2011 #107
I've been to the US 3 times. Do I qualify as an American?

my grandmother never became Naturalized so what would she be considered to Poland if she
wasnt living in Poland but yet still held citizenship and lived in America.

and would she not be allowed to vote/have any say in such affairs if she doesnt live there?
OP Antek_Stalich 5 | 997
13 Jun 2011 #108
It's gonna be 20 years since i came here on July 1st. You just visited. Me vising Canada didn't make me a Canadian.

Exactly! You only visited Poland 7 times over 20 years but you didn't share living in Poland. Yet you believe you are an expert on Polish matters.

Guessie, thank you for answering. The point is: Someone pointed out that 80% of US Polonia voters chose a presidential candidate in Poland while the same candidate lost his votes in Poland. A Polish American can read:

1. We will put an end to corruption and theft! We will take away the property from Commie traitors who destroyed the economy here and stole what they could, etc, etc.

2. We will build highways and will fight for responsible Poland.

The programme (1) sounds good on your PC screen and the programme (2) sounds unimpressive. Who would you chose only by media info? The one with more attractive programme, right? Who in the US can understand how terrible our Polish roads have been? However, "stopping corruption & theft, revenge Commies" is like honey for a Polish American. Many of them, at least.

Now, the voters in Poland chose the practical way: bettering the life, and they have been sick with the results of the previous government/President.

Now, you can see the difference between living THERE and living HERE, OK?

my grandmother never became Naturalized so what would she be considered to Poland if she
wasnt living in Poland but yet still held citizenship and lived in America.

and would she not be allowed to vote/have any say in such affairs if she doesnt live there?

If she lived most of her life in the US? How could she vote in Poland's matters? What does she now about today's Poland?
poland_
13 Jun 2011 #109
Now, you can see the difference between living THERE and living HERE, OK?

Antek, also take into consideration, that many PolAms, can no longer afford to move back to Poland. If a PolAm sold their property lets say for US$400,000 that is about 1.1 Mil PLZ, now if you have got to buy a House in Warsaw and put the kids in Private school, you have no Job or business. The 1.1 Mil PLZ is going to run dry very quickly. Now lets say you sold up in PL and decided to move to the states, your money would go a lot further.
Patrycja19 63 | 2,699
13 Jun 2011 #110
Now, you can see the difference between living THERE and living HERE, OK?

theres Americans who left and now are citizens and still hold citizenship for the US but we dont
categorized them into a type A or Type B and tell them they cant vote when it comes to our
political system.. sounds like a bunch of bullcrap to me.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_citizen

just sounds like those who are so uppity about it are jealous of people in North America
I wouldnt say that about everyone in Poland cause I know theres only a few who have
issues with it.
OP Antek_Stalich 5 | 997
13 Jun 2011 #111
Could you read the below, Pat, slowly?

4. Live in dreams based on what Poland was when they were leaving her

From your link:

Anyone who becomes a naturalized U.S. citizen is required to renounce any prior citizenship during the naturalization ceremony; however, this renunciation may not necessarily be considered effective by the country of prior citizenship. United States citizens are required by federal law to identify themselves with a U.S. passport, not with any foreign passport, when entering the US. The Supreme Court case of Afroyim v. Rusk declared that a U.S. citizen did not lose his citizenship by voting in an election in a foreign country, or by acquiring foreign citizenship, if such acts did not require him to explicitly renounce his U.S. citizenship.

Can you see the double standard here? U.S. naturalized citizen has to renounce his/her previous citizenship. However, Poland does not recognize such renunciation. But she should, so Poland would be like the US. Your opinion?
guesswho 4 | 1,289
13 Jun 2011 #112
Now lets say you sold up in PL and decided to move to the states, your money would go a lot further.

true, this is what I've observed in Poland too. It's strange but even though, the average income in Poland is lower, many things seem to be more expensive than here.
Patrycja19 63 | 2,699
13 Jun 2011 #113
What does she now about today's Poland?

I would ask but I am sure she is rollin over in her grave right now. RIP Grandma :(

yeah I belong to the type D= Disgusted.

Can you see the double standard here? U.S. naturalized citizen has to renounce his/her previous citizenship.

American law permits multiple citizenship, so a citizen of the United States can be a citizen of another country at the same time. Citizenship can be renounced by citizens,[3] and it can also be restored.[4]

no I dont see it, the first paragraph says that a person can hold dual citizenship, you can
renounce it, but it can be restored..
Lodz_The_Boat 32 | 1,535
13 Jun 2011 #114
I think that when it comes to voting, the whole world should be allowed to vote for US president, because its the world's most powerful country and its foreign policies affect the whole world in such drastic manners which is probably unthinkable by Americans living in USA! ... Also, its economic policies affect the whole world similarly.

Now when it comes to Poland ... we are comparatively quite insignificant. I am not at all ashamed to say it, but rather in some ways very happy to know this reality :) ... very very happy!

We are insignificant enough to expect that our citizens should know how we eat and drink and what crimes or challenges we face to understand and vote for the appropriate candidate. This voting shouldn't be affected by some other country's propaganda on it. But our own real situations ...

I respect and admire the PolAms ... as you like to call them. They seem to know about Poland, or atleast they care to find out more than we often care to find out. I think if they think deeply, even they would agree that the best for Poland would be a careful analysis of the current situation and challenges, then to read the manifestos and the record of the candidates ... and then finally vote. For doing this it is very important that this be done by ground level experience, seen and felt and lived on that experience ... to understand what hope is realistic and applicable for Poland. <---- can all these elements come from knowing Poland through a foreign Media? ... specially American media which allegedly manipulates information globally to suit its agenda?

Think again ... anyone who loves Poland ... not necessarily Poles in Poland but also Poles abroad ... even those who are foreign native but love Poland. Think on it.... :)
OP Antek_Stalich 5 | 997
13 Jun 2011 #115
Patrycja, I sympathize with you regarding your Grandma. I have already lost both of my parents so I know what it means.

We have to read those paragraphs very carefully, Pat.

What I see from the first paragraph: When my friend Julian (this is true story) went in the US, he held his Polish passport, his PolBrit wife held a British passport, her Finnish daughter held a Finnish passport. Now, they lived in the US on green card for long time and their son was born in the United States. So Julian's son can legally keep the US passport and apply for Polish passport, true. However, if Julian gets naturalized (or got naturalized), he will held US passport because of his naturalization and he can keep his Polish passport because Poland does not recognize citizenship renunciation.

Julian told me a quite funny story. They all went to Canada and on the return, the US clerk looked into that family's passports...

-- Well... A Polish, a British, a Finnish and a little American boy... are you sure you are a family? ;-)

I think the renouncing citizenship and restoring it that you mention are about the US citizenship.
guesswho 4 | 1,289
13 Jun 2011 #116
specially American media which allegedly manipulates information globally to suit its agenda?

yep, the bad Americans again, heh Everyone else says the truth but us. I like your very realistic point of view.
Lodz_The_Boat 32 | 1,535
13 Jun 2011 #117
yep, the bad Americans again, heh Everyone else says the truth but us.

By using that "us" and also the "everyone else" ... do you mean Poland = Everyone else; and USA = us ... in your case? ;) ...

Anyways ... look at the "allegedly" word before you come to concrete conclusions :) ...
OP Antek_Stalich 5 | 997
13 Jun 2011 #118
By using that "us" and also the "everyone else" ... do you mean Poland = Everyone else; and USA = us ... in your case? ;) ...

Could you please talk for *yourself*, Banana? Sorry, Boat.
I have already told you we are both Polish but do not think the same.
Lodz_The_Boat 32 | 1,535
13 Jun 2011 #119
we are both Polish but do not think the same.

:D ... yeah yeah I know ant ...

Don't you see what she wrote? ... She wrote "Everyone else" and "we" signifying EVERYOTHER COUNTRY'S MEDIA/INTELLIGENCE (INCLUDING POLISH) AS "EVERYONE ELSE" ... while again pointing out the USA MEDIA/INTELLIGENCE AS HER'S (US).

^^ ... this was what I was trying to point out towards her.

If you read my post BEFORE that, I think I am much more OK and RESPECTFUL to Polams than most would be in this thread (apart from Polams themselves) :)
guesswho 4 | 1,289
13 Jun 2011 #120
By using that "us" and also the "everyone else" ... do you mean Poland = Everyone else; and USA = us ... in your case? ;) ...

us Americans. I don't make any differences between PolAms, GerAms etc. We are all Americans here.
I don't even like to call someone a PolAm or any other ...Am. I see them all as Americans unless one tells me he's a ....Am etc. I don't have any problems with one's ethnicity as long one doesn't harm anyone or anything here.

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