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Polish-Americans as seen in the false mirror. Type A and Type B.


OP Antek_Stalich 5 | 997
13 Jun 2011 #31
First, Des Essientes: How come I feel superiority in all what you are writing? How come that you have just noticed the Krzysia's moustache but ignored the moral of the Sienkiewicz tale on Ketling? Is your Type B approach related to some general behaviour of part of American Polonia or is it the fact you are a Cali (and you know what they say about Calis) or is it just you?

Second, Lodz The Boat. I'd start with saying that me, "newie", can see the things here with fresh eyes. Secondly, good that you are telling me things about this Forum and its regulars, still I can read very little on your views on approach of Polonia, especially in these Forums?

For example: Would -- in your opinion -- Des Essientes fight for Poland if needed or he'd choose some surfing or (you know what I mean) some golf match instead? Still, he appears to be an expert in everything related to Poland and Polish affairs! How come?
Des Essientes 7 | 1,291
13 Jun 2011 #32
Des Essientes: How come I feel superiority in all what you are writing?

Because I am a better writer than you.

How come that you have just noticed the Krzysia's moustache but ignored the moral of the Sienkiewicz tale on Ketling?

That Scotts can integrate into Polish society and even be blown up in protest when Polish burgermeisters make bad decisions was noticed by me. I quite admire the inclusive multi-cultural nature of the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth.

Is your Type B approach related to some general behaviour of part of American Polonia

As I said in a previous post I do not fit into either of the "types" you are trying to pigeon hole 10 million Polish-Americans into.

is it the fact you are a Cali (and you know what they say about Calis)

I do not know what the say about "Calis" please enlighten me.
alexw68
13 Jun 2011 #33
First, Des Essientes: How come I feel superiority in all what you are writing?

Nahhh, Dessie's just got an intellectual chip on his shoulder. All that name-dropping and almost-but-sadly-not-quite relevant philosophical noodling is just the standard first-year undergraduate yearning for a seat at High Table, except that the rest of us grow out of it.

Dessie, if you do ever get that call to sup with the Dons at High Tea, don't forget to wear a tie - and bring an iPod. You'll find the conversation dull and insular, the lighting sepulchral and the port positively acidic.

However, if you really want to get ahead in that milieu, you'll have to forgo daylight and contract, at the very least, a mild case of syphilis. The laudanum habit is, of course, optional.
Lodz_The_Boat 32 | 1,535
13 Jun 2011 #34
especially in these Forums?

Take another look around the forum, and you will know how useful (if ever) is your or my view will be on the real aspects of the country. One of the most regular here is southern. He is arguably a very very VERY veteran member of the PF ... and he has many in his gang to say the least.

I had some threads on Polish economy, the stock market movements, about the future of Poland ... I think I even had one on Polish politics. I have a few sticky about "why people love Poland" when they come here ... etc etc.

While I must say that some responses were worth thinking about, most were not really serious. Infact except one or two, no comments are usually serious. Its either a fight, or about the women, or about some kind of stray accusation on how bad the Poles drive, our buildings etc etc ... what not.

Its all there my friend, use the archives here, the search is available ... you will get your answers if you look just a little harder.

Infact I found myself the only one from Poland who used to raise those "silly" threads on Polish matters of serious insight. But I really think its not that useful ... as people here come with their own imaginary Poland ... its not the Poland you and I live in ... its another Poland that people discuss here. In this "imaginary Poland" ... all the men in the world are after our women ... we are often the most racist of them all ... we are sometimes the most corrupt ... sometimes the most backward ... sometimes just a step away from becoming the richest country in the globe :P ... also, our women are running away to men from middle east in such huge numbers that we Poles might just end up getting operated to turn into a woman or something...

Thats the Poland in topic here. Do you get it now? ... This is exactly the Poland being discussed here. Are you a citizen of that Poland? If yes, then very well, join in! ... if not, then who would like to know about your Poland? ... Your Poland is not an interesting Poland, its just like any other country with women and men just like any other ... having its way of life, having ups and downs and sometimes a monotonous rhythm aswell.

Hope I could add value to your thread...
OP Antek_Stalich 5 | 997
13 Jun 2011 #35
Because I am a better writer than you.

Let us try out our writing skills in Polish, please.

I quite admire the inclusive multi-cultural nature of the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth.

When multi-cultural nature of current Republic of Poland becomes apparent, isn't it what you could admire? Since the PLC won't come back.

As I said in a previous post I do not fit into either of the "types" you are trying to pigeon hole 10 million Polish-Americans into.

Please do not be your own judge.

I do not know what the say about "Calis" please enlighten me.

Cannot help you with that. Ask outside Cali, inside the US.
poland_
13 Jun 2011 #36
Surly you don't mean that dope-domino and his mentor Harry!They are category unto themselves!
Themistocles would agree!

Ironside of the three characters you mention, I have only read Harry's posts, as I previously mentioned on PF, as far as I understand, PF was set up as a forum for all things Polish, Harry has answered peoples questions and provided information, that I would consider "spot on" on many occasions. I have also seen him enter into worthless debates and become argumentative, there is always a reason and I do not know his history and relationship with other posters. It is apparent that you have issues with him, maybe because of his stance on PolAms. I have read your Posts Ironside and have to say, they do not seem to represent PL in the 21st Century.
Des Essientes 7 | 1,291
13 Jun 2011 #38
Alex, if you honestly believe I give a crap about Oxbridge dons, and that I wish to dine with them, then you are mistakenly projecting aspirations from your own milieu upon me.

at the very least, a mild case of syphilis. The laudanum habit is, of course, optional.

You wrote these same words in response to one of my posts soon after I joined this forum and now I pity you because you are repetitive.

not-quite relevant philosophical noodling

If any of my references to philosophy are not relevant to the topics being discussed then please point them out. I don't remember you having done so so far. What is stopping you?
teflcat 5 | 1,032
13 Jun 2011 #39
Surly you don't mean that dope-domino and his mentor Harry

What's a dope-domino?
Ironside 51 | 11,338
13 Jun 2011 #40
I have read your Posts Ironside and have to say, they do not seem to represent PL in the 21st Century.

Good, Nevertheless I'm Polish :)
alexw68
13 Jun 2011 #41
Alex, if you honestly believe I give a crap about Oxbridge dons

Merely being figurative. Your intellectual pretensions are, however, not dissimilar. 'Projecting aspirations'? No, mate. Been there, done that. It wasn't, frankly, all that special.

If any of my references to philosophy are not relevant to the topics being discussed then please point them out.

- Some faff about the ontic vs. ontological the other day. Very clever, no doubt, but zero value added.
- The gratuitous name-dropping of de Quincey two days ago to lend spurious authority to your claim (mistaken, the word as thus spelt is Scots/Irish Gaelic) that the word sassenach is of Welsh origin.

- A few dozen more I haven't the time or inclination to enumerate.

You wrote these same words in response to one of my posts soon after I joined

Perhaps. Hardly anything to be self-conscious about. If your memory is that good, perhaps you could do better than the spelling of laudanum you managed here:

You should trade yours for an immense amount oflaudenum, light the fire, order your servant to be ready with the tea, and live the dream!

Gotta dash. The batman has just come in with an ironed copy of this morning's Telegraph. Time for my reveille...
OP Antek_Stalich 5 | 997
13 Jun 2011 #42
Your post, Lodz, is very interesting. I'd say -- in addition to your words -- there is a multi-cultural clash here on the Forums. Brits exhibit very specific sense of humour and style not everybody can understand (I mostly do since my great interest towards United Kingdom); the US is a big, differentiated country and Americans of different kind bring totally differently styles, views, approach. Now let us take Turkish, Greeks, Serbs... I could talk a lot.

The multi-national mix on the PF leads to inevitable clashes. Still, I believe it is pity that Moderators are never trying to quench the warfare by real modding, that is, by personal example. Split to Random Bin, ban, and get your coffee. This is like curing the fever, not the reason for the illness.

its not the Poland you and I live in ...

Where two Poles, there three opinions, remember?

However, we are talking about Polonia and their approach towards Poland, by examples of PF threads/posts. I generally agree to and support the views of MediaWatch. What made me write the OP was:

I am in contact with (i) Polish emmigres of 1980's (ii) Born Americans of Polish ancestry, interested in Poland.

Part of people under (i) fall in the Type A category, and other under Type B. I was shocked to restore contact with some schoolmate after 30+years. The guy was so... disagreeable I had to quit him. Another friend, the one who comes to Poland frequently to help her old Mommy tells me: "I have to apologize for Darek. He is generally an OK guy, he is, however, just like that".

People under (ii) are typically very positive towards Poland and I can only say great words for them. Some of them have already been to Poland and they liked it here.

Now, reading posts of so many Polish Americans here, I still classify many of them as Type B. With good reasons to say that.

Ironside: Surly you don't mean that dope-domino and his mentor Harry
What's a dope-domino?

Ironside is talking on Delphiandomine, and I can only say Mods are very liberal regarding using derogatory language towards other PF users. Just waiting for a Mod comment like: "No, no, it was not about Delphiandomine! We have no time to guess!"
Des Essientes 7 | 1,291
13 Jun 2011 #43
- The name dropping of de Quincey to point out (mistakenly, the word as thus spelt is Scots/Irish, not Welsh) that the word sassenach is of Welsh origin.

I copied the word from DeQuincy's text. Either he was wrong or you are.

Some faff about the ontic vs. ontological the other day. Very clever, no doubt, but zero value added.

Not "faff" but a reference to the sublime philosophy of Martin Heidegger. You would do well to read him think and about what he says and maybe thereby get rid of your petty attitudes towards life that make you believe you have outgrown philosophical endeavor and that prompt you to offer advice to others about how "to get ahead".
OP Antek_Stalich 5 | 997
13 Jun 2011 #44
What about writing on topic, Des Essientes?

I'd welcome your enlightened ideas written in perfect Anglaise about your willingness to die for Poland in need. Having

our Slavic blood

in your veins is a sort of obligation, isn't it?
poland_
13 Jun 2011 #45
Good, Nevertheless I'm Polish :)

Ironside, if I wished to be Polish, it would be granted in a very short period of time. Your being Polish is not the issue, or a benefit in this debate, as most posters on this thread have an equal or better knowledge/understanding of PL to you. The issue, is more your need to patronize, Harry at every possible opportunity, this shows your weakness.
alexw68
13 Jun 2011 #46
You would do well to read him think and about what he says and maybe thereby get rid of your petty attitudes towards life that make you believe you have outgrown philosophical endeavor and that prompt you to offer advice to others about how "to get ahead".

Ah, yes. That reminds me of some gnomic utterance you made last time we crossed swords about base emotions or some such. You, of course, have displayed, without let or fail, the judgement of Solomon in the intervening period - have you not?

I'll take your word for it about any advice I may have given on how to get 'ahead'. Don't quite see the problem, though.

But I will politely ignore any presumptuous beliefs you may have constructed about my 'petty' attitudes to life. For what it's worth, I don't lack the time, inclination or expertise for philosophical pursuits. It's just that cack-handed advertisement of that fact in 65% of my posts would be a little undignified, wouldn't you say?
Des Essientes 7 | 1,291
13 Jun 2011 #47
What about writing on topic, Des Essientes?

This thread is a critique of Polish-Americans on this discussion forum. I am the topic.
alexw68
13 Jun 2011 #48
I am the topic.

Such humility. QED.
OP Antek_Stalich 5 | 997
13 Jun 2011 #49
This thread is a critique of Polish-Americans on this discussion forum. I am the topic.

You said you do not fall under any of Types A or B. Right. Read the description in the OP under point (B).
You are not the topic, although were I making the OP again, I'd include two categories more.
Des Essientes 7 | 1,291
13 Jun 2011 #50
were I making the OP again, I'd include two categories more.

That would make this thread an even more ridiculous exercise in amphetamine fueled futile categorization than it already is.
Ironside 51 | 11,338
13 Jun 2011 #51
Ironside, if I wished to be Polish, it would be granted in a very short period of time.

That is your common (westerners) inability to differentiate between ethnicity and citizenship. So, it is not possible to be proclaimed "Polish", you would become citizen of Poland and that is different.

Your being Polish is not the issue, or a benefit in this debate, as most posters on this thread have an equal or better knowledge/understanding of PL to you

Come again?

The issue, is more your need to patronize, Harry at every possible opportunity, this shows your weakness.

Yes, I simply do not understand how an intelligent and educated dude can make an ass out of himself to twist and wiggle and all that in order to spit on things holy for Poles.
OP Antek_Stalich 5 | 997
13 Jun 2011 #52
warszawski: Your being Polish is not the issue, or a benefit in this debate, as most posters on this thread have an equal or better knowledge/understanding of PL to you
Come again?

He meant you are living in dreamworld, and to express it in Polish: "Jesteś oszołomem".

arszawski: The issue, is more your need to patronize, Harry at every possible opportunity, this shows your weakness.

Yes, I simply do not understand how an intelligent and educated dude can make an ass out of himself to twist and wiggle and all that in order to spit on things holy for Poles.

Precisely: To some Poles.

This is not Delphiandomine or Harry related thread. Go back on topic, PLEASE.
Softsong 5 | 495
13 Jun 2011 #53
I can see the existence of the two groups, A and B, but there is also as touched on in a previous post, the problem of defining who is in these two groups. To me, Antek is describing 1st generation PolAm who fall into A and B. And his designation would be correct about someone who came here from Poland, and then became a citizen of the USA. He/she is a PolAm.

However, there is that larger group of people who were not born here, that are second and third and many more generations. Those are the ones that I personally think of as PolAm, even though I know it includes the ones who were born in Poland, but became citizens.

I tend to think of those from Poland (both with green cards and those who are now a citizen of the USA as Polonia. Kind of like a country within a country. Of course, some who emigrate from Poland have not ever lived in the "little Polands" all across America and Canada, but moved instead to other communities.

Since I live far from any concentrated Polish communities, it is hard for me to see if they fall into A or B. There are a few born in Poland people that live near me and they seem to be in the A category. I have never really met a B kind in my whole life. Except on this forum.

We can see the same thing in regards to a business. The complainers are always louder than the satisfied people. This could be one explanation why B seems like a larger group on these forums. And, why I am very vocal third generation PolAm-GerAm who often defends Poland of today. I really have no business to do so. I have only visited Poland three times, and am far from an expert. But, I am absolutely shocked at how some of Poland's former residents speak about Poland. It defies what I see with my own eyes in Poland. So, I have to speak up.

Anyway, an example of my point. If someone stays at my hotel and is happy with their stay, it is the rare person who goes to the trouble to write online about what a great hotel we have. But the ones who were not happy, will take the time to write about their negative experiences.

So, I am guessing that the seemingly larger group of B people from Poland are just a lot more vocal and appear more numerous on this forum.

Another factor that comes into play is a psychological factor. It is known in psychology that even if a decision is a bad one, (i.e. you join a religion that thinks the end of the world is tomorrow and then the prophecy turns out to be false, you tend to defend that choice very rigorously). No one wants to say, "Yes, it was a terrible mistake, I was an idiot to do this."

Therefore, I guess some who are B might feel badly leaving their country deep down, and might not be that happy here. But, to save face, they will talk up the new country and put down the old country.

As for the vote....that appears to me to be a complication of the Polish rules that ignore citizenship of another country. Neither the USA or Poland acknowledges when someone is a citizen of another land. It is more or less not really allowed, but not bothered about.

I could see those people who were born in Poland as adults, being able to vote in Poland. People who live abroad in other countries for years, can cast their ballots in American elections, too. One would hope they stay abreast of all what is going on in their native lands, but it can be frustrating to those in a country living with the day to day realities.

Again, it is the law in Poland that brings in my opinion the trouble with PolAm from second or more generations who could vote because even not being born in Poland, they are citizens if they file for it and have the right to vote.

I actually think that if I made a case for it, I could obtain Polish citizenship. And heck, I would NEVER vote in a Polish election, but I can tell you I would not have voted for Kaczyński. My choice would have been Komorowski. I happened to be there during the elections. :-)

We who are still very proud of our ethnic connection to Poland (our genetic material does not change despite country of citizenship), should not vote. Many of us see Poland from the eyes of what our grand parents told us about Poland, and that is totally not relevant to Poland today. Most of us have not gone to Poland to visit. Yet, it makes me sad for us to be put down.

So, I dislike Delphie and Harry putting us down. Most of us are A people at heart. They have often made me very angry at their treatment of some on this forum. With some time though, I came to see why they do it. There are those in the group of new residents of this country and those who are second or third generation who are B like in their attitude, and it is their way of showing them how B they are.

I used to think Delph hated all Poles, even those in Poland. I have come to see that especially Delphie calls it like he sees it about B like people in Poland and abroad. And I think he likes to show that if he hated Poland, he would not be there working to make it better. So, I have come to moderate how I feel about them. At times, I do believe they go way too far.

Therefore, with this long post, I believe most PolAm are A. not B. Polish Forums is not a real slice of life of Poland, nor of Polish Americans. But, it's all we have. And I am always happy to see more natives of Poland take an interest in this forum to gain some balance. I'd like to see people who come here to learn about Poland, actually learn about Poland!
OP Antek_Stalich 5 | 997
13 Jun 2011 #54
Thank you for your extensive, objective, deep and great insight very much, Softsong! One of the best in this thread and reflecting my thoughts on the Class (ii) that I described in the post #43.

(Note: I share your view on Delphi and I think we could domesticate him to behave better. Like in "gorol, ale oswojony" = Silesian: A non-Silesian but domesticated one) ;-)
poland_
13 Jun 2011 #55
That is your common (westerners) inability to differentiate between ethnicity and citizenship. So, it is not possible to be proclaimed "Polish", you would become citizen of Poland and that is different.

Polish - meaning - relating to Poland, its inhabitants, or their language.

Come again?

Polish is NOT the same as Slavic.

Yes, I simply do not understand how an intelligent and educated dude can make an ass out of himself to twist and wiggle and all that in order to spit on things holy for Poles.

I admire your tenacity- Ironside, although that will only get you so far in life, he who shouts the loudest, is generally the weakest.
Softsong 5 | 495
13 Jun 2011 #56
However, there is that larger group of people who were not born here, that are second and third and many more generations.

I meant to say, "there is a that larger group of people who were not born THERE (in Poland), that are second and third and many more generations."

Thank you for your extensive, objective, deep and great insight very much, Softsong!

It was a bit long, so I thank you for reading and getting something out of it. I feel glad you started the thread because it addresses issues we have had here for a long time. The B types annoy me too. Imagine how weird it is to read all you can about where your ancestors came from, visit the country and then join a forum to learn more about Poland, but wind up defending Poland from Poles! I honestly have to believe in reality they are a true minority.
OP Antek_Stalich 5 | 997
13 Jun 2011 #57
Imagine how weird it is to read all you can about where your ancestors came from, visit the country and then join a forum to learn more about Poland, but wind up defending Poland from Poles! I honestly have to believe in reality they are a true minority.

The real revolution here could start with forbidding any religious or political debate under the peril of complete deleting offensive posts and banning the offender, after maximum two warnings. This works elsewhere on American forums. You might not believe that it would have worked here? Well, then at least the posts of Lyzko and Gumishu and Polonius3 and of pawian and of boletus and of many more related to Polish affairs far more interesting than the "Slavic unity" would emerge to daylight.

Controversial topics will be VERY closely moderated. Politics and religious debate/discussion are not allowed in any forum unless specifically allowed by the forum's posted rules ("sticky" threads)

Aha, there would be a possibility to discuss politics or religions. Only to Sponsoring Members and in hidden sections, only visible to the Sponsoring Members. This also works very well elsewhere.

Aha, there would be a possibility to discuss politics or religions. Only to Sponsoring Members and in hidden sections, only visible to the Sponsoring Members. This also works very well elsewhere.

Could anybody ask the Admin to read the above? Such a number of loyal, already addicted contributors! What is $20 for having splendid warfare? Dżizazkrajst, this is a Golden Duck story!

And who says Poles cannot make business ;-)
Des Essientes 7 | 1,291
13 Jun 2011 #58
The real revolution here could start with forbidding any religious and political debate under the peril of complete deleting offensive posts and banning the offender, after maximum two warnings.

Antek, you complain about the heavy handedness of the moderators and then you propose this "real revolution" which would stifle freedom of speech on this forum by eliminating debate on two of the most important subjects anyone ever talks about. Religion and politics are famously discouraged as topics of discussion at dinner parties, but this is not a dinner party this is a discussion forum. And now I see you are proposing that people should to have to pay to be able to discuss religion and politics!
OP Antek_Stalich 5 | 997
13 Jun 2011 #59
Antek, you complain about the heavy handedness of the moderators and then you propose this "real revolution" which would stifle freedom of speech on this forum by eliminating debate on two of the most important subjects anyone ever talks about. Religion and politics are famously discouraged as topics of discussion at dinner parties, but this is not a dinner party this is a discussion forum.

These principles work excellently on other American forums. Wouldn't you pay $20 to become a Sponsoring Member and participate in such important debates? As for now, you can do it free, I see.

Read my last posts you've apparently missed.
Ironside 51 | 11,338
13 Jun 2011 #60
Polish is NOT the same as Slavic.

I have never said that it is. That so called "Slavic" factor is overtly overplayed on PF, nobody cares much about it in a real life.

I admire your tenacity- Ironside, although that will only get you so far in life, he who shouts the loudest, is generally the weakest.

Hey I like this forum because I can express myself freely here.I'm not talking like that in a real life.

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