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Where do most Polish-Americans identify on the political spectrum?


Seanus 15 | 19,706
17 Dec 2011 #61
Good post, I-S. Very good, in fact!!
PennBoy 76 | 2,436
18 Dec 2011 #62
Imagine stepping off the boat in Ellis Island and being asked where you're from. You're a Lemko, but you're aware that they're not going to know what a Lemko is

Because people already knew their ethnic background when they got to Ellis Island. Just how Poles who came here from a partitioned Poland, a Germany, Russia or Austria knew what they were it was passed down. So if he knew his family was ethnic Polish, Catholic, and with a Polish last name he almost certainly was.
Des Essientes 7 | 1,291
19 Dec 2011 #63
Imagine stepping off the boat in Ellis Island and being asked where you're from. You're a Lemko, but you're aware that they're not going to know what a Lemko is - and you certainly don't identify with the oppressors in Vienna - so you become Polish.

Even if some Lemkos told and Ellis Island official that they was Polish that hardly makes it certain that the Lemkos would also tell their children that they are solely plain Polish and never mention their Lemko heritage, Two of my Great-Grandparents were Gorale and they considered themselves both Polish and Gorale. The two are not mutually exclusive, nor is Polish and Lemko. This belief that minority ethnicities from Poland would initially deny their specific ethnic heritage because they felt that an official at Ellis Island wouldn't be familiar with it, and then, since they had told an official they were just "plain" Polish, that they would subsequently keep their more specific Polish ethnicity a secret from their progeny is ridiculous. Delphiandomine has constructed a fallacious straw-man in hopes of casting doubt upon the Polishness of Polish-Americans. Why he would want to cast such doubt is up to this forum's readers to decide, but I am sure that the more seasoned of them understand why very well and that they laugh at such pathetic malice upon his part.
Harry
19 Dec 2011 #64
you and your pathetic pals

a couple of bitter British weirdos

another bitter British expatriate

such pathetic malice

Is it possible for you to post without insulting people? I very much suspect that it is not and that you have learned nothing from your repeated suspensions, which means that another one is most certainly on the way.
JonnyM 11 | 2,620
19 Dec 2011 #65
Because people already knew their ethnic background when they got to Ellis Island

Remember that until the days of affordable travel, disposable income, literacy and accessible radio broadcasts, regional identity in Europe often played a much bigger part in people's lives than national identity, especially among the rural poor. Issues about the Sejm, the Constitution of the third of May, the infighting among the Magnates etc didn't always affect or even reach reach illiterate people who were struggling to grow enough food to keep their families' alive and rarely even went into a town. Norman Davies covers this point well - reproducing testimonies from people in rural Poland who didn't know they were Poles until the mid 1920's.

It is unrealistic to assume that every immigrant from the former territory of Poland either considered themselves a Pole or had a lasting opinion about the political landscape.
Ironside 51 | 11,339
19 Dec 2011 #66
It is unrealistic to assume that every immigrant from the former territory of Poland either considered themselves a Pole or had a lasting opinion about the political landscape.

But your argument only strengthens DeEs position, because these who declared at Ellis Island to be Polish and later consequently passed that onto their progeny must have been Poles then.

Delphian is just stirring the pot and laughing.
JonnyM 11 | 2,620
19 Dec 2011 #67
these who declared at Ellis Island to be Polish and later consequently passed that onto their progeny must have been Poles then.

Hardly. There were periods of history in which such people knew nothing of what that meant.
Havok 10 | 912
22 Dec 2011 #68
I sense the real issue lies somewhere else entirely. You “British” find Pol-Ams a bit problematic because we tend to support Polish people especially when you try to bully them around. You hate it so much that whenever you get a chance you try to convince everyone on PF that Pol-Ams are not really Polish. OMFG That's some funny sh1t. LMAO. Whatever Dopes and Harrys, debate this all you want, but I tell ya, this one is beyond you all. We just know it better and nothing is going to change it.
delphiandomine 88 | 18,454
22 Dec 2011 #69
You "British" find Pol-Ams a bit problematic because we tend to support Polish people especially when you try to bully them around.

Truthfully, what have most Polish-Americans actually done for Poland? I mean, beyond writing letters and sending parcels - what have you done? I've never met any Polish-American here that was volunteering - plenty of others, though. In fact, the only Polish-American here was sulking because language schools wouldn't pay her more money.

I think most people in Poland see them for exactly what they are - people desperately trying to cling to some sort of identity, and often using it as an excuse for thinly-disguised racism. Hence why most Poles have little to do with them.

You hate it so much that whenever you get a chance you try to convince everyone on PF that Pol-Ams are not really Polish.

Perhaps if they learnt to speak the language, we might consider them as Polish. Then again, no-one in Poland regards them as Polish anyway. They're Americans, whether they like it or not. And Poles really do despise when they try and tell them what to do.

We just know it better and nothing is going to change it.

Yes, you really do know best...
legend 3 | 664
23 Dec 2011 #70
Truthfully, what have most Polish-Americans actually done for Poland?

More than you ever will.

I think most people in Poland see them for exactly what they are - people desperately trying to cling to some sort of identity, and often using it as an excuse for thinly-disguised racism. Hence why most Poles have little to do with them.

Tell that to my family their and your teeth will be gone you invader.
Most Poles actually respect Polonia. When they choose not to like them its usually for reasons not related to
their nationality or ethnicity.

The more east you go in Europe you go you will find people more "racist" and thats a good thing.
The East hasnt been polluted as much as western Europe. We dont need trash in Poland.
At least 33 percent of Europeans were racist in 1999 from EU countries. And you can imagine that many people
are racist but say they are not because globalism punishes these people for thought crimes.

Perhaps if they learnt to speak the language, we might consider them as Polish. Then again, no-one in Poland regards them as Polish anyway. They're Americans, whether they like it or not. And Poles really do despise when they try and tell them what to do.

Wrong again. There are still hundreds of thousands if not millions of PolAms/Canadians/Brits/Aussies who do speak Polish.
And that doesnt change anything because they are and will always be more Polish than a random limey occupying Poland.
You can sit and use the Polish system till your deathbed and YOU never will considered a Pole.
Wroclaw 44 | 5,384
23 Dec 2011 #71
Most Poles actually respect Polonia.

i don't know about 'most', but it seems to me that Poles don't give Polonia a second thought.
delphiandomine 88 | 18,454
23 Dec 2011 #72
More than you ever will.

How many of you pay taxes in Poland, create employment here, volunteer on projects and generally make this place a better to live?

None of you. You sit there, moaning about Poland not being exactly as you think it should be, and demanding that Poles do this and Poles do that.

And this is what I resent - I see people here busting their ass, working hard, trying to do their best for themselves and Poland - and all you guys do is criticise them. Incidentally, I suspect John Godson has done far more for Poland than most of the Polonia together.

Tell that to my family their and your teeth will be gone you invader.

I'd happily tell them that. In fact, I'd even call them cowardly for running away from Poland in her greatest time of need.

Most Poles actually respect Polonia.

No, they really don't. In fact, most of them hate the NA Polonia for being so utterly out of touch with what's going on in their country - and they especially despise when they try and interfere in Polish affairs.

The more east you go in Europe you go you will find people more "racist" and thats a good thing.
The East hasnt been polluted as much as western Europe. We dont need trash in Poland.

Here you go again, telling Poland what Poland needs and doesn't need, despite not actually living here.

When you pay tax to the Polish government, then you can have a say. It's not difficult you know - just buy a ticket and come.

Wrong again. There are still hundreds of thousands if not millions of PolAms/Canadians/Brits/Aussies who do speak Polish.
And that doesnt change anything because they are and will always be more Polish than a random limey occupying Poland.
You can sit and use the Polish system till your deathbed and YOU never will considered a Pole.

The vast majority of them cannot speak a word of Polish, unless you talk about how they eat "golumpkis' and "pierogies" at "busias".

Let's be serious here for a moment - the North American Polonia have abandoned and betrayed Poland, and those here know it.

i don't know about 'most', but it seems to me that Poles don't give Polonia a second thought.

They usually think about them during the elections, when sensible Poles rage that people who have never lived here or paid taxes here are interfering in Polish elections. Apart from that, they're a non-issue, except when they turn up and start interfering in Polish affairs.
Wroclaw 44 | 5,384
23 Dec 2011 #73
the North American Polonia have abandoned and betrayed Poland

i don't know who might have betrayed Poland, but those here who have to apply for visas might have some idea.

They usually think about them during the elections, when sensible Poles rage that people who have never lived here or paid taxes here are interfering in Polish elections. Apart from that, they're a non-issue, except when they turn up and start interfering in Polish affairs.

i'll go along with that.
delphiandomine 88 | 18,454
23 Dec 2011 #74
i don't know who might have betrayed Poland, but those here who have to apply for visas might have some idea.

I'm not surprised that Poles are angry and upset with this - they've been somewhat good friends to America for the last 20 years, and all the Polish lives lost for American causes - yet America still keeps them out. And where are the Polonia? They couldn't care less.

It seems to me that much of the "pride" in America is just an excuse to have a superiority complex over others. Nonsense like - 'I'm so Polish, I eat Kielbasa and Pierogies', while someone else is all "man, I'm so Scottish, I own a kilt and I'm learning to play the bagpipes".

To bring it back on topic - it's safe to say that they identify radically different from Polish opinion in North America. I wonder why, given that the other Polonia masses vote in line with Poland.
Sidliste_Chodov 1 | 441
23 Dec 2011 #75
Yes, you really do know best...

LMAO. This would never happen at a real Polish business over here.

That's worse than the Asian shops over here who advertise "Polskie Chleb", "Polski Produkts" and "Polska Food".

They're Asian - they have an excuse. We may suggest corrections, but we don't criticise them for Google Translator's shortcomings :) What's the Polish-American excuse?? :D
delphiandomine 88 | 18,454
23 Dec 2011 #76
LMAO. This would never happen at a real Polish business over here.

What's even more painful is the name - Sofia?!

What's the Polish-American excuse?? :D

I'd love to hear it - come on Polish-Americans, why can't you spell?
Sidliste_Chodov 1 | 441
23 Dec 2011 #77
What's even more painful is the name - Sofia?!

Exactly!!!! lmao!!! :D

i don't know about 'most', but it seems to me that Poles don't give Polonia a second thought.

I imagine that most only really consider their relatives and friends abroad, and not anyone else.

Delph may be a lot of things, but at least he's been to Poland and lives there - unlike many of the "Polish Dog"-munching brigade.
Harry
23 Dec 2011 #78
To bring it back on topic - it's safe to say that they identify radically different from Polish opinion in North America. I wonder why, given that the other Polonia masses vote in line with Poland.

We've discussed that in the past (i.e. why NA Polonia have such radically different political views to Poles). I suggested that it could be that the best and the brightest have either realised that Poland offers better opportunities to those who make the best of opportunity or realised that Poland needs them, meaning that what is left in NA Polonia are the less bright and the less able, i.e. natural PiS supporters. You suggested that the cause could be that most of the Poles who went to the USA were peasants and so it's not surprising that NA Polonia votes PiS.

However, there could be another reason: it could be that as the NA Polonia who vote in Polish elections will not be affected in the slightest by the lunacy of PiS, they are free to indulge themselves and vote PiS on the basis that PiS has good traditional values (such as the mandatory serving of golumpkis or pierogies as school dinners twice a week, etc).

That's worse than the Asian shops over here who advertise "Polskie Chleb", "Polski Produkts" and "Polska Food".

They're Asian - they have an excuse. We may suggest corrections, but we don't criticise them for Google Translator's shortcomings :) What's the Polish-American excuse?? :D

Well, there is a very obvious justification for using the Ukrainian word for 'grandmother' rather than the Polish word.
JonnyM 11 | 2,620
23 Dec 2011 #79
However, there could be another reason: it could be that as the NA Polonia who vote in Polish elections will not be affected in the slightest by the lunacy of PiS, they are free to indulge themselves and vote PiS on the basis that PiS has good traditional values (such as the mandatory serving of golumpkis or pierogies as school dinners twice a week, etc).

And fortunately their votes are only counted in the Warsaw region, where the overwhelming majority of voters wouldn't touch PiS. Essentially the PolAm vote doesn't count for anything.
Des Essientes 7 | 1,291
23 Dec 2011 #80
I'd love to hear it - come on Polish-Americans, why can't you spell?

Taking the example of one restauranteur's mispelled sign and then attributing mispelling to Polish-Americans in general is an example of the stupid inductive thinking that provides yet another reason for Polish-Americans, and others on this forum, to laugh at the illogic this forum's bitter element will use to defame American Polonia. Sour-pusses why can't you reason?
Harry
23 Dec 2011 #81
nd fortunately their votes are only counted in the Warsaw region, where the overwhelming majority of voters wouldn't touch PiS. Essentially the PolAm vote doesn't count for anything.

That's the only good thing about the whole mess.

stupid inductive thinking ... laugh at the illogic this forum's bitter element ... Sour-pusses

Yet more flaming from you.

Taking the example of one restauranteur's mispelled sign and then attributing mispelling to Polish-Americans in general

The problem is that she has not misspelled the word: she has used the common Polish-American spelling.

BTW, before you start complaining about Polish-Americans being erroneously portrayed as being bad at spelling, you might like to learn how to spell the word 'misspell'.
Havok 10 | 912
23 Dec 2011 #82
Truthfully, what have most Polish-Americans actually done for Poland?

I'm a productive and a well-respected member of the society. I feel that I represent my Polish heritage really well.

You should be proud of other Polish people like me who live abroad, work hard and create a positive outlook on Poland and her people.

I don't want anything from you. I'm Polish regardless what you say or do. Neither you nor me can change it.

See, I could really ask you the same question. What have you done for Polish-Americans lately?

You know what Dope? I just realized something, it's funny. Why am I even talking to you? You’re Russian right? haha Wow, Yet another Russian is trying to deny me my Polish heritage.
delphiandomine 88 | 18,454
23 Dec 2011 #83
Taking the example of one restauranteur's mispelled sign and then attributing mispelling to Polish-Americans in general is an example of the stupid inductive thinking that provides yet another reason for Polish-Americans, and others on this forum, to laugh at the illogic this forum's bitter element will use to defame American Polonia. Sour-pusses why can't you reason?

Mods?

And fortunately their votes are only counted in the Warsaw region, where the overwhelming majority of voters wouldn't touch PiS. Essentially the PolAm vote doesn't count for anything.

Even more reason to strip them of the vote - their vote is meaningless anyway.

I wonder if the average North American Polonia could name all the parties represented in the Sejm? Heck, could any of them even name the leader of Ruch Palikota?
Havok 10 | 912
23 Dec 2011 #84
I wonder if the average North American Polonia could name all the parties represented in the Sejm?

Who cares? Like I said, you can't change it. We're Polish regardless.
JonnyM 11 | 2,620
23 Dec 2011 #85
We're Polish regardless.

Unfortunately you aren't.

Who cares?

Well - some PolAms have the vote (until the new EU procedures come into effect) in Poland so it would make sense to actually know what the various parties are about.
Harry
23 Dec 2011 #86
You know what Dope?

Mods?

Well - some PolAms have the vote (until the new EU procedures come into effect) in Poland

When does that come into effect? And what is the exact regulation?
delphiandomine 88 | 18,454
23 Dec 2011 #87
Who cares? Like I said, you can't change it. We're Polish regardless.

Papers don't prove anything, as is often said in Poland.

Nice to see that you couldn't care less about the parliament of the country of which you claim to belong to. And yet you wonder why Poles snub you?
JonnyM 11 | 2,620
23 Dec 2011 #88
When does that come into effect? And what is the exact regulation?

Still going through the system - it had been slowed down by the Berlusconi government. Likely to happen quite quickly (in an EU sense of quickly) now. The area of concern is the 'new' EU countries with their restrictive voting rules and Italy which gives votes (and Schengen passports) to Americans and Aussies who have never even been to Italy. Whatever happens, it won't be as free as the Dutch system or as restrictive as the Polish - and non-residents everywhere are likely to have their voting privileges curtailed. Incidentally the Polish government has been fined again over the voting procedures.
Harry
23 Dec 2011 #89
Incidentally the Polish government has been fined again over the voting procedures.

Was that by any chance due to them having different dates for Poles and other EU citizens to register for the European elections?

Will the limitation of voting rights with regard to those who have never even been to the EU apply only to EU elections or also to Polish national and local elections?
Havok 10 | 912
23 Dec 2011 #90
Nice to see that you couldn't care less about the parliament of the country of which you claim to belong to.

I don't need to know because i don't vote in Poland.

And yet you wonder why Poles snub you?

Anyway, have you seen a comedy titled "Sami Swoi?".
We sense each other miles away and then we huddle closely together. (PF in this case)
Once the group reaches a size of 5 we start to argue, divide, poke each other and b1tch at everything. You on the other hand are just some confused ruski in a foreign country here. lol

I sense that you're not one of us. Also, I can't figure out why you would want to either.

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